Canadian team discovers power-draining flaw in most laptop and phone batteries

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

That would be great. And places like Canada are well on their way to that reality, though Cobalt and Lithium still have a ways to go for improvements in their labour and environmental impacts.

If the reports are true then tesla are on their way to not using cobalt in their batteries (awesome),  however avoiding the ethical issues of lithium is going to become impossible no matter how much they say they are only buying from ethical countries.  Every 20M EV cars requires something like 145% of the annual lithium production.  Baring a new way to mine lithium (or new source that is viable) Every year 75 Million cars are produced in total, Which means there is not enough lithium to even produce 20% of new cars as EV's, let alone only buying from ethical sources.

 

 

8 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

You have to pick your battles. Child labour and unsafe cobalt mines, for example, are both terrible things. But globally, they're less terrible than the risk that climate change poses.

The change required to fix the climate has to come from the poorest countries as they collectively produce the most greenhouse gases but can't afford to do anything differently,  the US may be able to have an impact if it goes full nuclear and as far as it can with EV's and all electric heating water etc.  But Australia and the UK (only two I have heard about) could become 100% climate friendly and it wouldn't change a thing (combined we make up less than 3% of global green house gas emissions).   So I think if we are serious about the environment we would be promoting technology and assistance to places like India, Russia, China,  so they are not trapped in a poor cycle relying on coal and having no chance of improving their lifestyle.    If the US can halve the CO2 output of china without making their citizens poorer then they would have effectively made the US carbon neutral.

 

 

[wanderingfool2]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Every 20M EV cars requires something like 145% of the annual lithium production.  Baring a new way to mine lithium (or new source that is viable) Every year 75 Million cars are produced in total, Which means there is not enough lithium to even produce 20% of new cars as EV's, let alone only buying from ethical sources.

A few years ago, Tesla also got a patent for a way of Lithium mining that was "supposedly cheaper" and reduced the water/chemical requirement by a lot.  So there are at least opes of being able to do mining locally at a reduced cost.

 

While Tesla is trying to reduce the amount of cobalt being used I doubt they will be able to fully...battery density is just too important.  On that note though, I think if proper advancements in material science happens sulfur batteries might become a thing which would eliminate the need for cobalt (and then effectively reduce the amount of lithium also needed)

[mdk777]

7 hours ago, Roswell said:

This is a really suspect statement to anyone that actually has experience… you know, driving. 

 

You want me to post my google logs?

WTF.

Austin to Blytheville AR (two customers) 696 miles

Austin to Memphis TN customer  644 miles

Austin to Jackson Tn 731 miles

Austin to sedilia MO  713 miles

 

Austin to South Ben IN 1215 Miles (No I don't do it in one day) stops along the way. So, two days of 600 to 700 miles

As I mentioned, I could simply fly to Chicago(about a dozen customers in the area) But driving up and back allows me to hit the ones in between.

 

I used to live in Chicago, fly into Nashville TN on a Sunday night and rent a car for the week.

Weekly rates were cheaper back in the day. I often turned the car in on Friday with over 2000 miles on it.(covering the southeast for a week) 

 

So yeah, only 44 years of driving experience.

ONLY around 2 million miles of driving experience.

 

Let me know when you step up from your electric scooter. 

 

[mdk777]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:52 PM, starsmine said:

Mid west is full of them. And you are not going off course. 

Lets try a trip from fort worth texas to chicago

Damn thats a lot of choices

or lets go from pittsburg to SuFu
https://chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html

 

 

 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1138639_study-ev-fast-charging-stations-will-meet-50-mile-interval

 

500 some high speed charger locations is not going to cut it.

 

The problem of success makes things even worse. The more EV you sell, the more demand for charging stations.

Having a charging station on your route does not mean it will be free when you get there.

So your theoretical 30 minute stop becomes over an hour if you are lucky.

 

 

120 pumps available at one location means never having to wait !!!

 

https://www.playinnewbraunfels.com/articles/post/worlds-largest-gas-station-buc-ee/

 

[starsmine]

17 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1138639_study-ev-fast-charging-stations-will-meet-50-mile-interval

 

500 some high speed charger locations is not going to cut it.

 

The problem of success makes things even worse. The more EV you sell, the more demand for charging stations.

Having a charging station on your route does not mean it will be free when you get there.

So your theoretical 30 minute stop becomes over an hour if you are lucky.

 

 

120 pumps available at one location means never having to wait !!!

 

https://www.playinnewbraunfels.com/articles/post/worlds-largest-gas-station-buc-ee/

 

if you don't think electric charging lots can expand to 120 spots and be more space efficient then buccies, IDK man.
The roll out is happening fast, those 500 today will be 750 tommrow, and then 1000 the day after.

[mdk777]

19 minutes ago, starsmine said:

if you don't think electric charging lots can expand to 120 spots and be more space efficient then buccies, IDK man.
The roll out is happening fast, those 500 today will be 750 tommrow, and then 1000 the day after.

As I say, I will believe it when I see it.

Tell me again when high speed train service is going to revolutionize travel in CA. 

I want return on investment ....not investment in wishing.

 

https://californiaglobe.com/articles/what-else-california-could-have-done-with-the-high-speed-rail-funds/

 

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

A few years ago, Tesla also got a patent for a way of Lithium mining that was "supposedly cheaper" and reduced the water/chemical requirement by a lot.  So there are at least opes of being able to do mining locally at a reduced cost.

 

While Tesla is trying to reduce the amount of cobalt being used I doubt they will be able to fully...battery density is just too important.  On that note though, I think if proper advancements in material science happens sulfur batteries might become a thing which would eliminate the need for cobalt (and then effectively reduce the amount of lithium also needed)

US used to be the number one producer of Lithium globally.... for hydrogen bombs.

Once we stopped building so many bombs, there was no use, so those mines were mothballed. Lithium batteries then came to be a thing, but you could mine it elsewhere for cheaper. Now many of those mines are looking to come out of retirement, and many more proven reserves exist then ever before as mining companies and US DOE explore.

https://medium.com/prime-movers-lab/does-the-u-s-have-enough-lithium-to-support-the-growing-ev-market-d73a44a969e5

Quote

 In 2021, US lithium reserves were estimated at 750,000 tonnes of lithium content. This is a MASSIVE increase from just three years ago when the USGS reported just 35,000 tonnes of domestic lithium reserves.

Though that still pales in comparison to Chile with its over 8 MILLION tonnes of reserves

[Ripred]

We still struggle to cope with viruses and relations amongst ourselves yet we believe we can affect the global climate whether positive or negative, preposterously arrogant species but extremely adaptable, we live in every corner of this planet and at the top of the atmosphere and everyone freaking out thinking we couldn't get through an ice age ha, even if someone is born with the capacity for a tremendous breakthrough in tech and enough savy to navigate our ridiculous international regulation comities and managed to effect meaningful climate control some passing comet or our own sun will show us who's boss in the end

 

~Channeling my inner Jurassic Park Ian Malcom~"Let's be clear. The planet is not in jeopardy. We are in jeopardy. We haven't got the power to destroy the planet - or to save it. But we might have the power to save ourselves."

[starsmine]

9 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

As I say, I will believe it when I see it.

Tell me again when high speed train service is going to revolutionize travel in CA. 

I want return on investment ....not investment in wishing.

 

I dont understand, are you not seeing it today?

In 2021, the TOTAL amount of charging stations nationally grew >55%
From 32 thousand stations to 50 thousand stations

North Dakota actually having the most charging ports per EV. (45)

The midwest is investing just as hard if not harder then california. 
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-are-there-in-the-us/

Build back better/Inflation reduction act put in a lot of federal funding to subsidize building more.

[mdk777]

3 minutes ago, starsmine said:

North Dakota actually having the most charging ports per EV. (45)

You know the population of ND right?

 

https://betterenergy.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/EV_CorridorRoadmap2023.pdf

 

I actually read this report to see if my understanding was BIASED.

 

This is a report from the people that WANT this to work.

 

Says that it is still a way off. 

[starsmine]

32 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

You know the population of ND right?

 

https://betterenergy.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/EV_CorridorRoadmap2023.pdf

 

I actually read this report to see if my understanding was BIASED.

 

This is a report from the people that WANT this to work.

 

Says that it is still a way off. 

Sir... Im wearing an SDSU sweater right now. I lived in SD for 8 years. Yes I know the population of ND. And it doesnt matter, because of the unit I used. You normalized population when going "per vehicle" or "per capita:

and I posted that link to show you where I got the data, not the analysis

That report just acts like Level 2 chargers are not good enough.... they are. 
And it goes and pretends DFC not on interstates dont really exist based on NEVI, which Is fair for the SPECIFIC purpose of that report, Increasing NEVI compliance and directing funding bookmarked for Nevi compliance.

We are not a ways off, we are already there for the EVs on the road today, and will continue to be "there" as EVs gain market share.

[mdk777]

15 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Yes I know the population of ND. And it doesnt matter, because of the unit I used. You normalized population when going "per vehicle" or "per capita:

Yes it does matter.

It is one thing to build enough charging stations for a state with a population under a million.

it is 30X more difficult to achieve in a state that has a population of 30 million. Scale MATTERS !!!

 

I referenced the study, because it merely lays out a best practice plan.

I don't see where they give a date of when it will be done....they are calling for thousands of more stations to be built, and then admit that it is only a good start.

 

Also, they admit that they are ONLY looking at high travel corridors. There is a great deal of empty space between these high traffic corridors.

They do a good job of looking at locations and noting that the density of charging stations, even when high, can be not spaced that well if you don't live in a affluent area.

 

Yeah, I can find chargers in AUSTIN TX, but I live in a fairly high rent area.

If you live significantly far from an interstate or large city....the picture is very very different. 

 

 

[starsmine]

8 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

Yes it does matter.

It is one thing to build enough charging stations for a state with a population under a million.

it is 30X more difficult to achieve in a state that has a population of 30 million. Scale MATTERS !!!

...
Sir... Thats what per capita/per vehicle is is. Its normalizing the scale to be directly comparable.

its literally saying 30 chargers per 30 million vehicles = 1 charger for 1 million vehicle.
its literally 1 to 1. 

Its literally pointing out that even though NY, CA, AND TEXAS have the plurality of EV charging stations, they still have a long way to go to match the midwest in terms of proportional investment.

[Holmes108]

10 minutes ago, starsmine said:

...
Sir... Thats what per capita/per vehicle is is. Its normalizing the scale to be directly comparable.

its literally saying 30 chargers per 30 million vehicles = 1 charger for 1 million vehicle.
its literally 1 to 1. 

 

That's reasonable when looking at existing statistics. It's a completely different ballgame when talking about implementing a future project. Things don't just (always) scale in a simple way. I don't pretend to know how easy it will be to accommodate a world of 100% electric vehicles (or any lesser percentage). But I agree with MDK in general that per capita is not particularly relevant when talking about scaling up large projects.

 

[Roswell]

5 hours ago, mdk777 said:

You want me to post my google logs?

WTF.

Austin to Blytheville AR (two customers) 696 miles

Austin to Memphis TN customer  644 miles

Austin to Jackson Tn 731 miles

Austin to sedilia MO  713 miles

 

Austin to South Ben IN 1215 Miles (No I don't do it in one day) stops along the way. So, two days of 600 to 700 miles

As I mentioned, I could simply fly to Chicago(about a dozen customers in the area) But driving up and back allows me to hit the ones in between.

 

I used to live in Chicago, fly into Nashville TN on a Sunday night and rent a car for the week.

Weekly rates were cheaper back in the day. I often turned the car in on Friday with over 2000 miles on it.(covering the southeast for a week) 

 

So yeah, only 44 years of driving experience.

ONLY around 2 million miles of driving experience.

 

Let me know when you step up from your electric scooter. 

 

I’m not disputing that you drive whatever distance, I dispute your claim of driving “700 miles in a day on a regular basis”.

 

I think in reality, if you actually make these trips, you’re not sitting behind the wheel for 14+ hours in a single day. 

[mdk777]

1 hour ago, Roswell said:

I’m not disputing that you drive whatever distance, I dispute your claim of driving “700 miles in a day on a regular basis”.

 

I think in reality, if you actually make these trips, you’re not sitting behind the wheel for 14+ hours in a single day. 

Wow,

You are amazed that people work?

Last time I knew there were 24 hours in a day.

 

In 14 hours you can drive 900 miles, not 700.

But yeah, no way in the world you could do it with a EV

878 mi  12h 50m 

 

Why do I let google track my location you ask?

Because I then have a record for doing expenses, but also for the IRS (proves the expenses if audit on reimbursement)

 

But I will have to leave you to your doubting...need to pack for a trip to UTAH.

PS, yeah I will fly to UTAH....there are very few customers between here and there to make it worth breaking up. 

 

 

[starsmine]

49 minutes ago, mdk777 said:

Wow,

You are amazed that people work?

Last time I knew there were 24 hours in a day.

 

In 14 hours you can drive 900 miles, not 700.

But yeah, no way in the world you could do it with a EV

878 mi  12h 50m 

 

Why do I let google track my location you ask?

Because I then have a record for doing expenses, but also for the IRS (proves the expenses if audit on reimbursement)

 

But I will have to leave you to your doubting...need to pack for a trip to UTAH.

PS, yeah I will fly to UTAH....there are very few customers between here and there to make it worth breaking up. 

 

 

We are calling you out because you dont do it consistently, and you would be taking far more and longer stops to do it safely. I to regularly drive cross country going between brookings SD and Washington DC, and I do it in two days by just sending it. As in technically speeding the whole way, and not hitting major traffic



thats 700 miles a day, but that is not a sustainable pace, that is RUSHING a road trip with minimal breaks. And yes, that trip is SUPER doable with EVs

And when you keep talking about "customers" on the way, then obviously you are STOPPING along the way even more out of the way and for longer.

[mdk777]

45 minutes ago, starsmine said:

We are calling you out because you dont do it consistently,

For 25 years I did it on average 3 weeks out of the month.

Covid caused people to do less face to face.

 

Today I do it one week out of the month on average, sometimes two, but consistently one.

So consistently, but not daily.

45 minutes ago, starsmine said:

And when you keep talking about "customers" on the way, then obviously you are STOPPING along the way even more out of the way and for longer.

Yup, see customer in the morning, 1 hour 2-3 now and then.

Then drive afterwards.

 

I find it hard to understand that you find this concept soo hard to comprehend.

If you fly anywhere in the US, you know it is an ordeal. a one hour flight means you need to leave 3 hours to get to the airport, get through security, and arrive at your location and rent a car.

So, yeah 3 hours of travel is much less than 8 you say.

 

Sure, IF the place you are going is at the airport.

Say are going to Blytheville AR. Well that is more than hour away from the Memphis airport....so now you are looking at 4 hours of travel time.

 

All well and good. How many flights are there going into Memphis from AUSTIN. 

What if you get done at noon and your flight is scheduled for 5pm? Go to the airport and try to get on standby? You are still going to spend the extra 5 hours traveling one way or another.

What if you get done at 4pm and you can't catch you 5pm flight? 

Suddenly the costs and time spent in travel go up....

 

What if you have to carry tools, and PPE (personal protection equipment)???

 

I Took a flight this year into Kansas City. They lost my luggage. I needed my luggage for the sales call.

It didn't show up until 10pm, and then I had to drive another 2.5 hours....a 2 hour flight became a 12 hour ordeal.

This has become something of a norm when flying.

 

Long story short,

 

To paraphrase a poster "You know if you actually drive..."  you would know that any( most for me because my customers are not IN large cities) trip UNDER 700 miles is faster to drive than fly...given all the actual variables of scheduling.

 

If you have an unlimited budget, yeah you could schedule a dozen flights in a week.

Most working people don't have that luxury.

 

You know, I don't think I ever questioned how many hours coders or wall street bankers put in.

I have no problem believing that they work 60 hour weeks.

Guys that work overtime in construction...do you presume that they aren't REALLY working ??

 

I see driving as part of the job, and compared to many jobs, it really isn't all that hard.

But generations change, and the definition of "WORK" in the US has been diminished to the point of absurdity. 

 

What? You want me to actually show up??? I much prefer to pretend to work from home thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[suicidalfranco]

On 2/6/2023 at 3:59 AM, dalekphalm said:

Producing less exhaust is helping to "save the planet". It might be a small contribution, on an individual level, and there are many avenues available for one to do "their part", but we shouldn't just give up on EV's because some countries have bad ethics practices.

Not. If we go by your calculations it doesn't even make a dent to CO2 emissions switching from ICE to EV. Plus when you consider that under the EU rediculous requirements for selling cars in the region, the euro 6 standard and soon to be euro 7, 1g/km of CO2 or 60mg/km of NOx, and the next standard to lower that threshold even more.

EV is simply not fessible on the scale of ICE, the raw materials required just for the batteries makes it more damaging than their ICE counterparts on the "muh ecosystem" front, uneconomical for the vast majority, it battery degradation would simply kill the used market, and if it's that expensive while taking advantage of slave labour, imagine the price hike when those materials get mined "ethically"™.

There was a cool solution that would have made everyone happy, but alas, fear mongerers be fear mongerers, plus having vested interests in competing alternatives brought us to where we are now. Hopefully Japan will prove everyone wrong and Red hydrogen will finally prove it's overwheliming advantages over BEV.

 

 

 

[CarlBar]

As i mentioned earlier, MPG, and various regulatory values for emissions are generally specified at a constant speed with the gearing set so the engine is running at it's most efficient. You'll rarely see values that good in the real world. Thats actually very relevant in europe where super long distance driving like what @mdk777 is talking about is rare. Also some of those limits are being set with the aim of pushing hybrids AFAIK, they're not somthing a pure ICE is really expected to hit without serious compromises.

 

Hydrogen in mass use has issues just beyond safety in normal operation, not least of which is the combustion product is actually a worse greenhouse gas than CO2. Yes water vapour is actually a really good greenhouse gas. You barely see it mentioned ATM because it's completely drowned out by other sources, but if transport switched to Hydrogen en mass it would become an issue real fast.

[mr moose]

Just now, CarlBar said:

As i mentioned earlier, MPG, and various regulatory values for emissions are generally specified at a constant speed with the gearing set so the engine is running at it's most efficient. You'll rarely see values that good in the real world. Thats actually very relevant in europe where super long distance driving like what @mdk777 is talking about is rare. Also some of those limits are being set with the aim of pushing hybrids AFAIK, they're not somthing a pure ICE is really expected to hit without serious compromises.

 

Hydrogen in mass use has issues just beyond safety in normal operation, not least of which is the combustion product is actually a worse greenhouse gas than CO2. Yes water vapour is actually a really good greenhouse gas. You barely see it mentioned ATM because it's completely drowned out by other sources, but if transport switched to Hydrogen en mass it would become an issue real fast.

There are lots of reasons it isn't mentioned much, but at the top of the list would be that people are too scared of being labeled a climate denier if they have the audacity to point to something way more problematic but that can't actually be addressed by human efforts.  

 

I'm all for saving the planet, but I am getting tired of half arsed distractory debates with politicians/lobbyists over solutions that A, are more damaging to the environment as a whole and B, seem to be driven by social rhetoric, political vote grabbing and cancellation fear rather than good science. 

[suicidalfranco]

12 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Hydrogen in mass use has issues just beyond safety in normal operation, not least of which is the combustion product is actually a worse greenhouse gas than CO2. Yes water vapour is actually a really good greenhouse gas. You barely see it mentioned ATM because it's completely drowned out by other sources, but if transport switched to Hydrogen en mass it would become an issue real fast

so we should just accept deforestation, soil errosion, water pollution and human righs abuse in lieux of greenhouse gases.

All solutions have their issues, there isn't a perfect one that will solve something without creating another problem in it's place.

 

 

[CarlBar]

32 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

so we should just accept deforestation, soil errosion, water pollution and human righs abuse in lieux of greenhouse gases.

All solutions have their issues, there isn't a perfect one that will solve something without creating another problem in it's place.

 

 

 

Have you forgotten why where trying to do away with ICE's? Replacing one source of greenhouse gasses with another thats worse is literally a worse idea than keeping ICE's. Don't get so caught up in being anti-lithium batteries that you forget why where moving away from ICE's in the first place.

 

44 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There are lots of reasons it isn't mentioned much, but at the top of the list would be that people are too scared of being labeled a climate denier if they have the audacity to point to something way more problematic but that can't actually be addressed by human efforts.  

 

I'm all for saving the planet, but I am getting tired of half arsed distractory debates with politicians/lobbyists over solutions that A, are more damaging to the environment as a whole and B, seem to be driven by social rhetoric, political vote grabbing and cancellation fear rather than good science. 

 

Someone dug up some data when i mentioned water vapour and it's greenhouse issues in a previous thread, it's effectively negligible at the moment, on it's own it accounts for a very small fraction of a degree of heating, (i belive it was les than a tenth of a degree but i'd have to dig it up again to be sure). If we replaced mass ICE's with mass hydrogen though we'd be replacing 30% of the global CO2 emission with water vapor, which is a big enough amount to have a significant and noticeable effect.

[Ripred]

Based on this thread I'm going to buy a Tesla and a 7.3 diesel, and drive them interchangeably 

[mdk777]

1 hour ago, suicidalfranco said:

so we should just accept deforestation, soil errosion, water pollution and human righs abuse in lieux of greenhouse gases.

All solutions have their issues, there isn't a perfect one that will solve something without creating another problem in it's place.

 

 

It means you should take a second to think if your "solution" even works,much less the consequences.  Remember the fuel additive added to ALL US gasoline to reduce greenhouse gases...yeah the one that was toxic and was found to be polluting ground water...yeah that was well thought out.

How about the miracle of corn ethanol?

Billions spent on a fuel additive that reduces mileage, has a questionable energy balance...(when you count all fertilizer and transportation perhaps more energy goes into than comes out) and adds to all consumer food prices and world hunger.... The list is endless of DO Good ideas that were worse than the problem....which actually comes back to the OP article.

 

Happy to see solutions that actually work and can be implemented...hope this is the case here,but research needs to have real world application and implementation before it is applauded, that needs to be the standard!!!!

Edison didn't get famous for inventing the light bulb(it existed) He became famous for making it work better,and launching mass production and changing the world through adoption!!!

He became famous not for wishing, but doing.