apple controversy Brazil bans charger-less iPhones and fines Apple

[rrats]

Summary

Yes, the Brazil's Ministry of Justice and Public Security banned sales of charger-less iPhones and fined apple for 2.04 million dollars. It was under the impression Apple was selling an "incomplete product", which is true since their phones can't be used without previosly owning a charger brick.

 

Now instead of adding a bloody charger brick, Apple decided to "resolve" the issue by appealing to the ban.

 

Ban and fine were announced a day before the keynote event for iPhone 14.

 

The authorities rejected Apple's argument that the practice had the purpose of reducing carbon emissions, saying there is no evidence that selling the smartphone without a charger offers environmental protections.

iPhone 13 box contents, image by Stetson Doggett

Quotes

Quote

Apple was prosecuted for selling the smartphones, from or Iphone 12, without the respective power charger to take from the wall.  The accusations are of married sale, sale of incomplete product or dismissal of essential functionality, refusal to sell the complete product through discrimination against the consumer and transfer of responsibility to third parties.

 

In defense, Apple claimed that the decision not to provide battery chargers together with smartphones would have been out of environmental concern, to encourage sustainable consumption.

 

For Senacon, the arguments presented were not enough, since the company's decision to sell the devices without a charger ended up transferring the entire burden to the consumer.  According to the agency, the manufacturer could take other measures to reduce environmental impact, such as the use of USB-C type connector cables and chargers, currently adopted as standard by the industry.

 

-official Brazilian statement, translated with Google Translate [1]

 

Quote

We have already won several court rulings in Brazil on this matter and we are confident that our customers are aware of the various options for charging and connecting their devices.

 

-Apple's statement [2]

 

 

 

Sources

[1]

https://www.gov.br/mj/pt-br/assuntos/noticias/suspensa-a-venda-de-iphones-sem-carregador-no-brasil

 

[2]

 https://www.reuters.com/technology/brazil-orders-apple-suspend-iphone-sales-without-charger-2022-09-06/

[Jeppes]

Idiots. How would using type-c and adding a charger help?

[mr moose]

19 minutes ago, Jeppes said:

Idiots. How would using type-c and adding a charger help?

The law seems to be based on the principal that not everyone has a charger already, so by not providing one in the package the product is incomplete and theretofore not operational as advertised.  It may seem like a stupid argument in our vastly materialistic 1st world culture where we have electronics to excess, but to brazil where almost 20% the population lives in abject poverty and god knows where the median income lies,  consumer products like consoles and top tier phones come with consumer protection laws for different reasons.

[Jeppes]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The law seems to be based on the principal that not everyone has a charger already, so by not providing one in the package the product is incomplete and theretofore not operational as advertised.  It may seem like a stupid argument in our vastly materialistic 1st world culture where we have electronics to excess, but to brazil where almost 20% the population lives in abject poverty and god knows where the median income lies,  consumer products like consoles and top tier phones come with consumer protection laws for different reasons.

It is a stupid argument. You think poor people buy 2000$ phones in Brazil? Comparable to packing a pc with software as you cant use it without one.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Jeppes said:

It is a stupid argument. You think poor people buy 2000$ phones in Brazil?

Irrelevant,  the law exists because of poverty (or something in that vein/relation), the law applies to every product not just products only poor people can afford. 

 

4 minutes ago, Jeppes said:

Comparable to packing a pc with software as you cant use it without one.

Not a good comparison, it would be more like a pc selling without a power cord.

[StDragon]

31 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Not a good comparison, it would be more like a pc selling without a power cord.

Not it's not. With a PC, you might sell it with the power cord. With a cell phone, people trade them in or sell without the charger all the time. It's the year 2022, you don't need a new charger if the existing one is compatible and working fine.

 

IMHO what Apple should do is provide the total price of the phone and charger as a bundle, and then a reduced price sans the charger. Let the consumer decide.

[Senzelian]

2 hours ago, rrats said:

saying there is no evidence that selling the smartphone without a charger offers environmental protections.

I don't think evidence is necessary to conclude that producing less of anything is good for the environment. In my opinion it should be more clear to the customer that there isn't a charger included in the box. It should also be made clear to the customer which charger they need, so they can double-check if they have the correct one already at home or need a new one and which benefits a new charger offers compared to an old one.

 

It simply makes sense to be able to skip the charger, but it shouldn't be any harder to also be able to order one in case you need one. 

 

The worst thing that came out of removing the charger, is that people bought a phone and realised after they had already received it, that they now need a charger and subsequently ordered one, which of course requires additional packaging and spits out more shipping emissions than having them in the phone box in the first place.

 

 

Example:
I ordered a Pixel 6 Pro directly from Google. It was not clear at the time that there wasn't a charger included, so even I forgot about it.

When I received the phone I noticed the lack of a charger, but was luckily in the position to already have chargers that fit the phone. GREAT! This actually helped the environment.

 

But if I didn't have these chargers lying around, I would've needed to either drive to a store to get one, or have to order one. That means more emissions, wasted time, more packaging material and whatever else that I can't come up with right now. That is the exact OPPOSITE of great.

 

 

Edit:

If Apple would finally switch over to USB C, they could even follow their own guidance and also remove the charging cable, as you'd probably already have plenty of USB C cables lying around.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, StDragon said:

Not it's not. With a PC, you might sell it with the power cord. With a cell phone, people trade them in or sell without the charger all the time. It's the year 2022, you don't need a new charger if the existing one is compatible and working fine.

It would be exactly the same, in both cases both products haveno way to be plugged in,  how much of a product is sold second hand is irrelevant when talking about brand new products.

3 minutes ago, StDragon said:

IMHO what Apple should do is provide the total price of the phone and charger as a bundle, and then a reduced price sans the charger. Let the consumer decide.

I agree, this should have been the case from the very onset of universal chargers.

[WereCat]

16 minutes ago, StDragon said:

Not it's not. With a PC, you might sell it with the power cord. With a cell phone, people trade them in or sell without the charger all the time. It's the year 2022, you don't need a new charger if the existing one is compatible and working fine.

Except when you buy an iPhone because it is using a non-standard connector and if you have 20 USB-C devices at home but never bought an iPhone before you still need to buy a charger because why would you ever need a lightning connector if you never had an iPhone?

 

My Sony WH100XM3 headphones have no charger... it sucks but at least I can use my phone charger to charge them because it's the same connector... not the same case with iPhone.

[wanderingfool2]

58 minutes ago, Jeppes said:

It is a stupid argument. You think poor people buy 2000$ phones in Brazil? Comparable to packing a pc with software as you cant use it without one.

It's the concept that people will save up money to be able to drop 1000 on a phone, and then all of the sudden realize they need to now drop another 25 on the charger.  Sure one could argue its only an additional 5%, but for some people who save up to purchase that extra 25 could mean a lot at the time.

 

I run my phone into the ground, and purchase an 1000 one personally...but as a result I only have 1 USB C charger (because I purchased it prior to them not including it).

[starsmine]

21 minutes ago, WereCat said:

Except when you buy an iPhone because it is using a non-standard connector and if you have 20 USB-C devices at home but never bought an iPhone before you still need to buy a charger because why would you ever need a lightning connector if you never had an iPhone?

 

My Sony WH100XM3 headphones have no charger... it sucks but at least I can use my phone charger to charge them because it's the same connector... not the same case with iPhone.

I still dont own anything that TAKES usb C, all my old stuff works fine enough. The most I have is a single usb c to lighting cables to charge my phone faster off my laptop, not even a wall wart. 

 

I wont get mad when I finally buy any product that takes USB C that I would have to go out and buy either a higher end wall wart and a cable. Its literally a non issue. 

 

I think the brazil law is dumb, when I buy a product, Im buying the product, the included charging cables and plug are nice to have, not need to haves, I have countless AC to USB type A plugs all over the place. 

.
Eventually some day I will have countless USB C outlets all over the place and it will be a non issue. The iphone comes with a type C cable, you can just use any old type A to lightning cable still, it works just as well.

[Jeppes]

1 hour ago, Senzelian said:

I don't think evidence is necessary to conclude that producing less of anything is good for the environment. In my opinion it should be more clear to the customer that there isn't a charger included in the box. It should also be made clear to the customer which charger they need, so they can double-check if they have the correct one already at home or need a new one and which benefits a new charger offers compared to an old one.

 

It simply makes sense to be able to skip the charger, but it shouldn't be any harder to also be able to order one in case you need one. 

 

The worst thing that came out of removing the charger, is that people bought a phone and realised after they had already received it, that they now need a charger and subsequently ordered one, which of course requires additional packaging and spits out more shipping emissions than having them in the phone box in the first place.

 

 

Example:
I ordered a Pixel 6 Pro directly from Google. It was not clear at the time that there wasn't a charger included, so even I forgot about it.

When I received the phone I noticed the lack of a charger, but was luckily in the position to already have chargers that fit the phone. GREAT! This actually helped the environment.

 

But if I didn't have these chargers lying around, I would've needed to either drive to a store to get one, or have to order one. That means more emissions, wasted time, more packaging material and whatever else that I can't come up with right now. That is the exact OPPOSITE of great.

 

 

Edit:

If Apple would finally switch over to USB C, they could even follow their own guidance and also remove the charging cable, as you'd probably already have plenty of USB C cables lying around.

So bundling chargers saves the environment as then people dont forget to buy one?  I mean how ridiculous can you go with it?

[Senzelian]

4 minutes ago, Jeppes said:

So bundling chargers saves the environment as then people dont forget to buy one?  I mean how ridiculous can you go with it?

Why would you think that? 

[tikker]

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

It's the concept that people will save up money to be able to drop 1000 on a phone, and then all of the sudden realize they need to now drop another 25 on the charger.  Sure one could argue its only an additional 5%, but for some people who save up to purchase that extra 25 could mean a lot at the time.

 I would argue that if adding another $25 for the charger is that big of a problem then you are not in a position where buying a $1000 phone is a smart idea. One needs to be realisitic and either settle for a lesser phone if the budget is a hard cap and/or if you really need a phone, or reconsider their choice.

 

 

3 hours ago, rrats said:

I am totally with Brazil's government.

I stand with Apple on this one, because I also stand behind the decision of the EU regarding chargers. Switching to USB-C would be good regardless, and luckily that will be mandatory in the EU soon anyway. Once everything transitions to USB-C, chargers will be interchangeable and thus it won't be necessary to include a charger with every device. Ideally I would also like to see that the product itself will then be $25, or whatever the cost of the charger, cheaper, but capitalism will probably cancel that unfortunately.

3 hours ago, rrats said:

For Senacon, the arguments presented were not enough, since the company's decision to sell the devices without a charger ended up transferring the entire burden to the consumer.

What burden are they talking about? To add one more item to their shopping cart?

3 hours ago, rrats said:

According to the agency, the manufacturer could take other measures to reduce environmental impact, such as the use of USB-C type connector cables and chargers, currently adopted as standard by the industry.

Well then Brazil could consider following the EU and mandating USB-C charging to be mandatory as well.

[starsmine]

Just to point out, the iphone 14 still comes with a cable.

so literally ANY usb-c charger will work. its not out of standard. 

Iphone, has not, and never has been lightning on both ends. No special charger is needed. 

[GamerDude]

1 hour ago, StDragon said:

 

IMHO what Apple should do is provide the total price of the phone and charger as a bundle, and then a reduced price sans the charger. Let the consumer decide.

Why would Apple do that? Why undercut their profit by providing a charger when you can sell it for more money? Isn't that capitalism at its 'finest'? I'd not mind if Apple alone does that, but it seems contagious and rival Android companies may follow suit, looking right at ya, Samsung.

[rrats]

Well what if an individual decided to upgrade from an iPhone X and now can't use fast charging feature. Also Apple is trillionares is it that hard not to add a charger into the box. Not to mention how charger in it's box uses more paper than the charger in iPhones box. If for a 1000+£ phone 20£ charger is nothing then why not include it?

[tikker]

26 minutes ago, rrats said:

Well what if an individual decided to upgrade from an iPhone X and now can't use fast charging feature.

Why wouldn't they be able to use fast charge? The chargers don't change, they are just not included with the phone anymore. If your iPhone X could fast charge at a given voltage and current from your charger then the newer device can as well if it supports fast charge at that voltage and current.

26 minutes ago, rrats said:

. Also Apple is trillionares is it that hard not to add a charger into the box.

It's not about the cost or effort to Apple.

26 minutes ago, rrats said:

Not to mention how charger in it's box uses more paper than the charger in iPhones box. If for a 1000+£ phone 20£ charger is nothing then why not include it?

The reason for not including it is that if you've ever bought a phone in recent years then you'll already have a charger. it's a balancing act. The idea is that this way many chargers don't have to be made in the first place since you can just use the one you already have.

[rrats]

Ok, I still think it's a dumb idea. Having 2+ chargers can be useful too

[tikker]

7 minutes ago, rrats said:

Ok, I still think it's a dumb idea. Having 2+ chargers can be useful too

In which case you can just go out and buy a second one. If you want one with your phone when you buy it it'll be as simple as adding it to your physical or digital shopping cart when you buy the phone.

[Blademaster91]

4 hours ago, tikker said:

What burden are they talking about? To add one more item to their shopping cart?

Having to spend extra on top of buying a $1000 phone, I find it ridiculous that such expensive phones don't include a charger, especially if the phone supports fast charging.

51 minutes ago, tikker said:

The reason for not including it is that if you've ever bought a phone in recent years then you'll already have a charger. it's a balancing act. The idea is that this way many chargers don't have to be made in the first place since you can just use the one you already have.

Not including chargers isn't going to do much the environment, its marketing while these companies sell you the phone with less for the same price. Apple selling a new phone with minor improvements over the previous version is harming the environment much more than including a charger.

[tikker]

20 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Having to spend extra on top of buying a $1000 phone, I find it ridiculous that such expensive phones don't include a charger, especially if the phone supports fast charging.

While I agree capitalism will probably try to do its thing and try to keep prices unchanged, in principle this is merely buying a $1000 phone+charger vs buying a $1000-X phone and a $X charger. If you bought a new $1000 phone every year and separating the charger didn't reduce that price, instead of spending $5000 over 5 years and collect 5 near-identical chargers you may never need all, you spend $5000+X over those same 5 years. A whopping $4 per year more for a $20 charger. Fast charging is plenty fast at this point as well, my phone can charge in seomthing lik 1.5 hours, and with (in the EU at least) USB PD becoming the mandatory standards for stuff >15 W, you'll be able to buy the exact charger that suits your fast charging needs and it will remain capable of that.

20 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Not including chargers isn't going to do much the environment, its marketing while these companies sell you the phone with less for the same price. Apple selling a new phone with minor improvements over the previous version is harming the environment much more than including a charger.

We'll see in the numbers what it does for the environment. If less chargers will be produced that is undeniably an improvement in that department if we take care not to immediately undo that improvement elsewhere. The fact that we have new phones yearly (for which I agree that the year-on-year improvements don't really warrant new models every year) does not change that and is not an excuse not to try something in a related area.

[Kisai]

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

The law seems to be based on the principal that not everyone has a charger already, so by not providing one in the package the product is incomplete and theretofore not operational as advertised.  It may seem like a stupid argument in our vastly materialistic 1st world culture where we have electronics to excess, but to brazil where almost 20% the population lives in abject poverty and god knows where the median income lies,  consumer products like consoles and top tier phones come with consumer protection laws for different reasons.

Please keep in mind that Brazil iPhones are made in Brazil (or at least the final assembly is), so even if they were forced to, it would only be something in the Brazil market and likely any neighboring market using them.

 

This is an entirely unique problem to Brazil. Because import taxes pretty much make buying anything that has to be imported with a price of more than $500USD prohibitive.

 

https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/apple-ordered-to-pay-1-000-to-brazil-man-for-selling-iphone-without-charger-1940563-2022-04-22

Quote

• Apple must compensate an iPhone user $1,075 for not shipping charger in the box.

It might be worth Apple's while to just keep nuisance lawsuits away to "add for free" a charger for the iPhone on a new sale if a buyer indicates they have no USB chargers or computer to charge it with, that said, that's "not good enough" since only a USB-C PD device would have the necessary charging power for an iPhone. So there is an element of potential confusion, but nobody needs to own more than two USB chargers in general.

 

I'm all for removing the charger because I think I have enough cables and wall warts. However I'd rather see a migration to a standard USB-C PD "power strip" of sorts, where plugging 7 devices into it, doesn't need a computer attached to just charge-only. Plug in a USB-C PD battery and then the devices plugged in still work/charge if the power goes out.

 

However I would much rather Apple commit to USB-C on the phone itself. The lighting connector itself is "not that bad" but it's awful as far as transfer speeds and accessories (good god the HDMI output is abysmal.)

[Forbidden Wafer]

There is nothing to do with price nor polution here, but reasonable expectations about a class of products.

Just like you expect appliances to come with wires pre-installed, computers to come with chargers, phones need to be sold with chargers.

Even toys and remote controls need to be sold with included AA/AAA batteries, for example, otherwise it is considered a married sale, which is prohibited by the law.

 

If it was a DIY product, the reasonable expectation would be completely different and the charger would not be required.

Framework for example sells individual components that can be used to build a working laptop, but they can't be expected to include a charger for each piece.

On the other hand, when a complete laptop kit is sold, be it assembled or disassembled, it would need to include the charger, because that is expected of a complete laptop.

[Forbidden Wafer]

31 minutes ago, Caroline said:

Use a cheaper phone then. Mine is from 2007, works and does everything  I need. 

I do agree with that. If the charger is a deal breaker, you shouldn't be buying such an expensive phone. Especially since you can get a 5-10x cheaper phone from Xiaomi, Motorola, Samsung that does basically the same.

 

34 minutes ago, Caroline said:

Seriously, what is this way of thinking? people in my country also buy extremely expensive phones and TVs + satellite kits yet live in shacks with metal roofs, like... what? 

What's the problem with metal roofing? It's quite durable. If it's the sandwich with foam/eps, even better for thermals and sound.

 

Regarding shacks: I'd say that exempting people from paying property taxes would help. Or at least letting them spend that money on renovations and get tax rebates. 

 

Shitty priorities, low budget and wrong incentives don't help.