apple controversy Brazil bans charger-less iPhones and fines Apple

[Helpful Tech Witch]

7 hours ago, WereCat said:

Except when you buy an iPhone because it is using a non-standard connector and if you have 20 USB-C devices at home but never bought an iPhone before you still need to buy a charger because why would you ever need a lightning connector if you never had an iPhone?

 

My Sony WH100XM3 headphones have no charger... it sucks but at least I can use my phone charger to charge them because it's the same connector... not the same case with iPhone.

I think your missing something, a charger and a cable are not the same thing. Iphones have cables in the box, just not the power adaptor.
If you have 20 usbc devices, id bet you you have a wall adaptor with a usbc port, thats all that you need.

[starsmine]

18 minutes ago, Helpful Tech Witch said:

If you have 20 usbc devices, id bet you you have a wall adaptor with a usbc port, thats all that you need.

Or not even. I own ZERO usbc devices, my iphone 12 mini that I got winter 2022, was the first product that came with a USBC cord for me.

Thing is though. because USBC is so prolific, I can still plug it in to both my car charger that I use for music as its a '98 car with only a tape deck, and my laptop. 
If I want a wall wart I can just pick one up. or I can just plug it in to USB A as I have plenty of USB A to lightning cables laying around with literally dozens of USB A wall warts. I dont need or want a dozen USB A wall warts, nor do I need or want a dozen USB C ones, I am more the happy with not collecting dozens through the lifespan of USB C and only buying them when I need one rather then collecting them every time I buy a new device from anyone.

It really is e-waste at a certain point, and while I think that is a cop out excuse from apple, I also am not going to push back against it. There is nothing wrong with minimizing e-waste even if it only is .001% of e-waste out there.

Also to the argument that they should just include it cause it costs 1000 dollars? the phone costs 1000 dollars, if they add the charger there is nothign to say they would keep it at that price. Yes their profit margins are high compared to the BOM, but again, I find that a weak argument. Especially as you go up into luxery goods class of products. 
Do yall REALLY think you get that "50% MORE FOR FREE" on the shampoo bottle for free? No its a 21 oz bottle and you are paying for 21 oz, not 14 oz.

Brazil is in the wrong here, you are buying a phone, a ac to dc rectifier is not part of the phone when any old DC converter will do just as well. 

[Vishera]

10 hours ago, Senzelian said:

I don't think evidence is necessary to conclude that producing less of anything is good for the environment.

Do you think that Apple really gives a shit about the environment?!

Just look at how many perfectly fine or repairable components end up in landfills because of Apple,

Just because Apple don't want them to reach the second hand market (in order to maintain it's monopoly on the replacement parts market).

 

Anyway i doubt that the impact on the environment is as big as Apple portrays.

That's why evidence is important - to see whether Apple is right or wrong about it.

 

Not including chargers and headsets in the box and then selling them separately increases the profit margin considerably.

 

11 hours ago, mr moose said:

Not a good comparison, it would be more like a pc selling without a power cord.

Yep,I agree with you.

 

F**k Consumerism.

[Dracarris]

13 hours ago, rrats said:

It was under the impression Apple was selling an "incomplete product", which is true since their phones can't be used without previosly owning a charger brick.

So they are also banning wireless headphones, keyboard, mice? All rechargeable devices that come without a charger. So they can't be used without previously owning a charger brick?

Exact same logic here. It simply does not compute.

4 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

phones need to be sold with chargers.

Same argument here. If you apply it to phones you'll need to apply it to a fuck ton of other devices that can be charged from USB outlets as well.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

Did Nintendo get a fine as well? Wasn't there a DS that came with no charger as well?

[Dracarris]

2 minutes ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

Did Nintendo get a fine as well? Wasn't there a DS that came with no charger as well?

Besides iphones there are numerous other phones from different brands that are as well sold without charger.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

1 minute ago, Dracarris said:

Besides iphones there are numerous other phones from different brands that are as well sold without charger.

Oh great so it's just Governments being trolls and fueling wars between cultists, excellent. 

[WereCat]

6 hours ago, Helpful Tech Witch said:

I think your missing something, a charger and a cable are not the same thing. Iphones have cables in the box, just not the power adaptor.
If you have 20 usbc devices, id bet you you have a wall adaptor with a usbc port, thats all that you need.

Indeed, I did not think of that.

 

My Steam Deck has a non detachable cable from the adapter though. So my only other choice is my OnePlus charger which won't charge my Sony headphones because IDK why..  works with Steam Deck charger or from cable trough PC USB which takes a looong time. Still... thats a whooping 2 USB-C devices ... but your point makes sense anyways.

 

EDIT:

Well... there's my answer.. so your USB C charger for one device may not even charge another USB C device even if its the same or lower power... so you need to buy charger anyways if you run into issue like me with my Sony headphones and OnePlus charger. 

 

 

[starsmine]

2 hours ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

Did Nintendo get a fine as well? Wasn't there a DS that came with no charger as well?

that one, being a proprietary connection used exclusively on the DSi and up, was sketch honestly.

But their logic is Nintendo fans already own every color 3ds in existence which tracks but come on, other people are going to buy the new 3ds then just crazed Nintendo fans.

[hishnash]

6 hours ago, Vishera said:

Do you think that Apple really gives a shit about the environment?!

Just look at how many perfectly fine or repairable components end up in landfills because of Apple,

Just because Apple don't want them to reach the second hand market (in order to maintain it's monopoly on the replacement parts market).

So apple does care about `environment` in the production and shipping side of things since they have a legal binding commitment to shareholders to be greenhouse gas neutral that means they need to estimate how much greenhouse gases the products they sell make and then they need to buy carbon credits (or other things like paying for trees planting etc) to offset this. 

So they care about the impact from a perceptive of the less greenhouse gases their products create in production and in delivery the less they need to spend offsetting that impact.  Since shipping a phone (that is airfreight) with a charger takes up almost 2x the space removing the charger on all iPhones might well economically be more about the cost of offsetting this greenhouse gas impact of flying the boxes than the additional saving of not making the charger. 

As to components apple really want these back since they use these for replacement units when you come into store for a repair, if they swap out your phone/Mac for in warranty or out of warranty repair what you get is a device were all of the internals are parts salvaged from other broken devices. Apple are in fact rather good at not having these parts end up in landfill since re-using them saves money for apple as they do not need to use new parts when repairing/replacing devices for users and they do a lot of these replacements every day.  There are some parts that yes do end up being destroyed, these typically are not going to landfill but rather to gold etc recovery (for PCBs), some vendors who in the past have been paid to do this recovery have been found to not be doing the recovery and instead selling the parts into the market (these vendors were not being asked to dump them in landfill). 


So yes apple (like any publicly traded company) does not care about `environment` more than profit since that would be illegal but they have chosen to make legal binding promises to the investors that cupule some env efforts with profits.  And not shipping a charger is a key cost saving measure (due to the env impact of this). 

[Vishera]

20 minutes ago, hishnash said:

So apple does care about `environment` in the production and shipping side of things since they have a legal binding commitment to shareholders to be greenhouse gas neutral that means they need to estimate how much greenhouse gases the products they sell make and then they need to buy carbon credits (or other things like paying for trees planting etc) to offset this. 

So they care about the impact from a perceptive of the less greenhouse gases their products create in production and in delivery the less they need to spend offsetting that impact.  Since shipping a phone (that is airfreight) with a charger takes up almost 2x the space removing the charger on all iPhones might well economically be more about the cost of offsetting this greenhouse gas impact of flying the boxes than the additional saving of not making the charger. 

The impact of this move over green gas emissions is unknown, there is no data from Apple regrading it.

The impact of this could be so minor that it doesn't make a difference.

 

20 minutes ago, hishnash said:

As to components apple really want these back since they use these for replacement units when you come into store for a repair, if they swap out your phone/Mac for in warranty or out of warranty repair what you get is a device were all of the internals are parts salvaged from other broken devices. Apple are in fact rather good at not having these parts end up in landfill since re-using them saves money for apple as they do not need to use new parts when repairing/replacing devices for users and they do a lot of these replacements every day.  There are some parts that yes do end up being destroyed, these typically are not going to landfill but rather to gold etc recovery (for PCBs), some vendors who in the past have been paid to do this recovery have been found to not be doing the recovery and instead selling the parts into the market (these vendors were not being asked to dump them in landfill). 

There are a lot of cases of replacement parts being destroyed by U.S customs just because Apple's generous definition of counterfeit.

Let's say that you have a genuine screen with a broken digitizer, if you replace the digitizer and sell it as refurbished Apple will claim it's counterfeit and have the

U.S customs destroy it.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/evk4wk/dhs-seizes-iphone-screens-jessa-jones

https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/nyc-repair-tech-apple-customs-seize-batteries/

 

Also most of what goes to their recycling program goes to the landfills since most of it is not recyclable.

[hishnash]

56 minutes ago, Vishera said:

The impact of this move over green gas emissions is unknown, there is no data from Apple regrading it.

The impact of this could be so minor that it doesn't make a difference.

In effect 1/2 the package size means 1/2 the number of air fright flights so that is a large impact (how much does that cost to offset, most likely in the 10s of millions) remember the scale apple operate at. 

So when Apple did this move they did claim it let them pack a LOT more phones on a single airplane so that is a big impact (for apple in the cost of offsetting the air fright and the cost of shipping).  That original presentation I believe even included the tons of greenhouse gases this would save (yes tons since apple ship way to many phones by air).  

56 minutes ago, Vishera said:

There are a lot of cases of replacement parts being destroyed by U.S customs just because Apple's generous definition of counterfeit.

This is standard for literally any part (from any company) that incudes the logo. Basicly if you import a product with a logo on it for a company and do not have paperwork to provide it is legit customs will destroy it. Just look at the videos make by Louis Rossmann on this topic he has made a few about this issue, customs do not have the skill needed to check if a part is legit so unless you have paperwork if your shipping in a part claiming it is legit and cant prove it with paperwork it will be destroyed this is the case of everything from wine to electronics to kids toys, the only way to ship these things into a country (like the US but also most other places in the world) is to ensure any logo is removed before shipping that way you are not claiming it is some branded project just a generic part, any attempt to ship anything branded with a trademarked logo on it will be destroyed by customs unless you can provide proof it is legit. 

 

56 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Also most of what goes to their recycling program goes to the landfills since most of it is not recyclable.

That is also not true, most of the martial is recycled, metal recovery for things like gold are very much worth it (this is something apple have published publicly how much easier it is for them to recover this from parts than it is to buy from a mine... yes being env friendly for a publicly traded company all comes down to cost savings).  All aluminum on apples products these days is recycled, and so are magnets and a lot of the other metals.  plastics etc that make up the PCB might well not be. 

[Senzelian]

8 hours ago, Vishera said:

Do you think that Apple really gives a shit about the environment?!

No.

[Kisai]

8 hours ago, Vishera said:

Not including chargers and headsets in the box and then selling them separately increases the profit margin considerably.

Eh, not really. It's mostly down to making shipping costs less, since it reduces the weight and box sizes. Logistics costs are more expensive than we give it credit, and if you can pack more in, you do it.

 

To the extent that it matters, Devices should not come with cables, chargers, or accessories unless they are required to operate the device and you can not be expected to have it (eg proprietary connectors.) This is why standardizing on USB-C as the connector was a good idea in the EU and expect to see it rolled out everywhere for all portable and low power devices. That said... we still need to standardize on a replaceable battery to solve the real environment problem from batteries not getting recycled. Existing batteries for Apple devices, let alone game consoles, are proprietary and are designed to be thrown away, not recycled.

 

I would much rather a device not come with a power cable, charger and headphones and buy by own than come with them and they just get thrown in a drawer. I have only bought Apple lighting earbuds because a previous one went through the wash.

[rikitikitavi]

20 hours ago, WereCat said:

Except when you buy an iPhone because it is using a non-standard connector and if you have 20 USB-C devices at home but never bought an iPhone before you still need to buy a charger because why would you ever need a lightning connector if you never had an iPhone?

 

My Sony WH100XM3 headphones have no charger... it sucks but at least I can use my phone charger to charge them because it's the same connector... not the same case with iPhone.

If you have 20 usbC devices, then you probably have at least one power brick with usbC, therefore you can charge your iPhone. iPhones come with Lightning to usbC cable.

All Apple power bricks are usbC - transition started with MacBooks years ago.

[Azryu]

20 hours ago, StDragon said:

Not it's not. With a PC, you might sell it with the power cord. With a cell phone, people trade them in or sell without the charger all the time. It's the year 2022, you don't need a new charger if the existing one is compatible and working fine.

 

IMHO what Apple should do is provide the total price of the phone and charger as a bundle, and then a reduced price sans the charger. Let the consumer decide.

+1. Auto include it and forgo it for a discount if people really care that much. I'd rather not have the clutter and e-waste, personally.

[rrats]

I think they should adapt business model in which you can choose if you want the charger or not and make the both options cost the same.

[KaitouX]

8 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Besides iphones there are numerous other phones from different brands that are as well sold without charger.

Samsung was fined and started including chargers with their phones in Brazil, all brands are required to include the charger with the purchase of the phone, it doesn't matter if it's inside the box or separate.

8 hours ago, Dracarris said:

So they are also banning wireless headphones, keyboard, mice? All rechargeable devices that come without a charger. So they can't be used without previously owning a charger brick?

Exact same logic here. It simply does not compute.

Same argument here. If you apply it to phones you'll need to apply it to a fuck ton of other devices that can be charged from USB outlets as well.

The law considers mainly the reasonable expectation of the consumer regarding what is needed for the device to work, an accessory is usually used together with another device, making a charger not an requirement, a phone is considered as a product that should work without requiring others.

From the official document:

Quote

"Os smartphones introduzidos no mercado pela representada a partir da linha iPhone 12 não são comercializados como acessórios, atualizações ou apêndices de versões anteriores do mesmo aparelho, tampouco têm sua venda restrita a proprietários de outros aparelhos fabricados pela empresa."... "Se a utilidade de um bem depende de outro que não é fornecido pelo fabricante nem tem sua presença pressuposta na vida e no ambiente do consumidor, a não disponibilização simultânea do carregador em relação ao smartphone se torna ilícita."

Roughly translates to: "The smartphones introduced in the market by the brand starting from the iPhone 12 line are not commercialized as accessories, updates, or appendages of previous versions of the same device, nor are the sales limited to owners of other devices made by the same company."... "If the utility of a good depends of another that isn't provided by the manufacturer, nor has its presence presupposed in the consumer's life and ambient, the simultaneous non-availability of the charger in relation to the smartphone becomes unlawful."

Important to note that Apple was notified and requested to give the charger together with the phone before, and were fined multiple times by state consumer protections entities, just like Samsung, but due to the refusal to comply now they are getting fined again and having the sales halted in a federal level.

[Dracarris]

28 minutes ago, KaitouX said:

The law considers mainly the reasonable expectation of the consumer regarding what is needed for the device to work, an accessory is usually used together with another device, making a charger not an requirement, a phone is considered as a product that should work without requiring others.

So people use wireless headphones together with their phone - how exactly gets that rid of the requirement for a charger?

 

Other examples: My rechargeable bike lights came without a charger. Same for a rather expensive flashlight and a headlamp. They are accessories to my bike aaand, me, I guess? Well both of those came without any charger. So to use any of these products I need to buy a separate charger. Married sale? Illegal? Not really.

 

This line of argumentation from Brazil seems quite flawed IMHO.

[KaitouX]

42 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

So people use wireless headphones together with their phone - how exactly gets that rid of the requirement for a charger?

 

Other examples: My rechargeable bike lights came without a charger. Same for a rather expensive flashlight and a headlamp. They are accessories to my bike aaand, me, I guess? Well both of those came without any charger. So to use any of these products I need to buy a separate charger. Married sale? Illegal? Not really.

 

This line of argumentation from Brazil seems quite flawed IMHO.

If you buy wireless headphones, the assumption is that you bought a phone or computer previously, both should come with the means to charge the headphone, either in the form of a charger or charging capable USB port. If the headphone doesn't use a standard charging solution it should come with the charger.

Those lights would likely need to come with the means to charge them, either by including a charger or using AA or AAA batteries, some types of lights could probably get away by including just the USB cable, but most would be required to add the charger if enough people complain about the product or it catches the eye of the responsible entities.

Most flashlights comes with chargers or use standard batteries in Brazil.

[Dracarris]

42 minutes ago, KaitouX said:

Those lights would likely need to come with the means to charge them, either by including a charger or using AA or AAA batteries, some types of lights could probably get away by including just the USB cable, but most would be required to add the charger if enough people complain about the product or it catches the eye of the responsible entities.

Most flashlights comes with chargers or use standard batteries in Brazil.

tbf I am quite happy that this is a brazil only thing. AA batteries over integrated Lithim batteries are a terrible experience given the juice these lamps suck back and how often I recharge them.

Shipping chargers with each of them would result in me having 10 instead of 5 surplus wall bricks that were completely unnecessarily produced and shipped.

And for the headphones? Moot point. You can as well use them with a home stereo or TV, and at least some stereos have no USB charging ports. I could get around that argument for phones but still there are tons of standalone devices that ship with only a USB cable, for very good reason.

[WereCat]

3 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

If you have 20 usbC devices, then you probably have at least one power brick with usbC, therefore you can charge your iPhone. iPhones come with Lightning to usbC cable.

All Apple power bricks are usbC - transition started with MacBooks years ago.

Not necessarily

 

[Obioban]

This seems like a false economy to me. Instead of only people who need a charger having to pay for it, everyone has to pay for it. 

 

Does Brazil think that because every phone includes a charger, Apple is going to pay for it? Do they understand how selling products works? 

[Forbidden Wafer]

On 9/10/2022 at 8:19 PM, Dracarris said:

So they are also banning wireless headphones, keyboard, mice? All rechargeable devices that come without a charger. So they can't be used without previously owning a charger brick?

Exact same logic here. It simply does not compute.

Same argument here. If you apply it to phones you'll need to apply it to a fuck ton of other devices that can be charged from USB outlets as well.

Again, reasonable expectations. If they use disposable batteries, they need to have them included, otherwise they can't be sold.

 

You are expected to connect a keyboard, mouse and headset to something (remember P2? PS/2? USB?).

If they're wireless, they need to include a charging mat/dock/cable (in case it charges with a port) to be connected to something their wired counterparts would be connected.

 

Since phones are standalone devices, yes, you got to include the charger.

On 9/10/2022 at 8:19 PM, Dracarris said:

If you apply it to phones you'll need to apply it to a fuck ton of other devices that can be charged from USB outlets as well.

Yup, you're correct. The only exception is when the product price would be significantly impacted by adding the charger (e.g. 50 BRL lint remover shipping with a 20-40 BRL charger).

[igormp]

I miss when phones used to come with cases, headphones and chargers, the phone I bought this year just came with the phone itself and a USB-C to C cable.

On 9/10/2022 at 7:52 AM, Jeppes said:

It is a stupid argument. You think poor people buy 2000$ phones in Brazil? Comparable to packing a pc with software as you cant use it without one.

Hi, I live in Brazil.

Yes, they do.

On 9/10/2022 at 3:42 PM, Caroline said:

Use a cheaper phone then. Mine is from 2007, works and does everything  I need.

 

Seriously, what is this way of thinking? people in my country also buy extremely expensive phones and TVs + satellite kits yet live in shacks with metal roofs, like... what? 

Some people have different priorities than you, and some of those are also stupid.

On 9/10/2022 at 8:58 PM, Dracarris said:

Besides iphones there are numerous other phones from different brands that are as well sold without charger.

Samsung tried to do this here, saw that it wasn't going to play well with our justice system, then started giving away chargers for anyone who bought a new phone that didn't come with a charger in the box.

 

12 hours ago, Obioban said:

This seems like a false economy to me. Instead of only people who need a charger having to pay for it, everyone has to pay for it. 

 

Does Brazil think that because every phone includes a charger, Apple is going to pay for it? Do they understand how selling products works? 

They didn't lower the price for the new phones without a charger tho, and I bet it also won't increase if they do start bundling the charger back, so it just worked as a way to increase their profit margins.

15 hours ago, KaitouX said:

amsung was fined and started including chargers with their phones in Brazil, all brands are required to include the charger with the purchase of the phone, it doesn't matter if it's inside the box or separate.

They weren't fined, just notified, and only started including the charger for some niche models (Z fold and flip), the S22 lineup still doesn't come with a charger and you need to request those from their website after purchasing a phone (I had to do that with mine).