apple controversy Brazil bans charger-less iPhones and fines Apple

[igormp]

6 minutes ago, Obioban said:

Apple targets a certainly margin. That can't be achieved by price adjustment or component cost adjustment. If a charger comes with the phone, it'll either increase the price of the phone or decrease features in the phone. It's not free, just because it's included.

 

Given the value of scale, it does end up being free for the costumer compared to buying those same accessories after the fact.

 

7 minutes ago, Obioban said:

I've had 8 iPhones now (starting with the first one, then upgrading every 2-3 years). I don't need 8 chargers. They don't go bad. I'd rather it wasn't a component on the BOM.

Good for you, you don't represent the majority of the use cases tho.

 

In fact, since so many of you keep insisting that everyone already has an iphone and chargers/cables without providing any new info, I went after it myself: https://www.businessofapps.com/data/apple-statistics/

 

In the past couple years they've seen an increase of 10~20% yoy of active iphone users, meaning that from 2020 to 2021 we had ~200 million new users getting into the ecosystem, with another 1 billion users already in place (be it users that didn't upgrade or upgraded then sold their previous devices), while they had sold 242 million iphones worldwide in 2021, then we can infer that only 42 million of those devices ended up in the hands of people that already were into the ecosystem, which represents less than 20% of the new devices sold.

 

So there you go, those accessories are useful to 80% of the users that purchase a new phone, be it because they're actually new users or because they sold their previous accessories along with their phone after upgrading.

[Dracarris]

3 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Huh, they still sell that old thing. I looked at the iPhone 12.

Dude, it was refreshed in 2022, aka this very year, with 5G support and the A15! This is NOT old at all. I am really getting fed up with these misinformed anti-Apple comments.

[Forbidden Wafer]

7 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Dude, it was refreshed in 2022, aka this very year, with 5G support! This is NOT old at all. I am really getting fed up with these misinformed anti-Apple comments.

Yeah, noticed that was the case looking at it now. They could have added 5G to the name, like in good old 3G and 4G. (Try including the case, charger, headphone, screen protector)

 

Nice to know, still too expensive for what it is. May care about that when the BRL to USD exchange rate drops to something more reasonable. At 5x, it's an automatic no. Just like 11k entry-level Macs. 

[starsmine]

47 minutes ago, igormp said:

Given the value of scale, it does end up being free for the costumer compared to buying those same accessories after the fact.

 

Good for you, you don't represent the majority of the use cases tho.

 

In fact, since so many of you keep insisting that everyone already has an iphone and chargers/cables without providing any new info, I went after it myself: https://www.businessofapps.com/data/apple-statistics/

 

In the past couple years they've seen an increase of 10~20% yoy of active iphone users, meaning that from 2020 to 2021 we had ~200 million new users getting into the ecosystem, with another 1 billion users already in place (be it users that didn't upgrade or upgraded then sold their previous devices), while they had sold 242 million iphones worldwide in 2021, then we can infer that only 42 million of those devices ended up in the hands of people that already were into the ecosystem, which represents less than 20% of the new devices sold.

 

So there you go, those accessories are useful to 80% of the users that purchase a new phone, be it because they're actually new users or because they sold their previous accessories along with their phone after upgrading.

Here is the thing. It does not mater if you are in the apple system or not. the plug on the other side is either USB A or USB C. If you have been android all your life you are fine. If you have not had a phone before, like you are a kid getting your first phone, then you are also in a household that has other electronics that will have the plug.

If you are going up a social class and getting your first ever electronic device as an adult so you have no ecosystem to fall back on and need the charger. THEN and only then do I think you have a point. but I also find it hard to believe the market there is significant enough to justify it.

Trading in phones, I have never seen them ask for all the accessories back, JUST the phone, the phone is what has value.

At this point in technology, it feels the same as demanding anything that plugs into AC MUST also include a receptacle that the end user has to attach to their wall. Which is crazy, you just need the plug that goes into the receptacle. the edge cases can be handled by the user (like they live off the grid and need a generator)

[Obioban]

45 minutes ago, igormp said:

Given the value of scale, it does end up being free for the costumer compared to buying those same accessories after the fact.

 

Good for you, you don't represent the majority of the use cases tho.

 

In fact, since so many of you keep insisting that everyone already has an iphone and chargers/cables without providing any new info, I went after it myself: https://www.businessofapps.com/data/apple-statistics/

 

In the past couple years they've seen an increase of 10~20% yoy of active iphone users, meaning that from 2020 to 2021 we had ~200 million new users getting into the ecosystem, with another 1 billion users already in place (be it users that didn't upgrade or upgraded then sold their previous devices), while they had sold 242 million iphones worldwide in 2021, then we can infer that only 42 million of those devices ended up in the hands of people that already were into the ecosystem, which represents less than 20% of the new devices sold.

 

So there you go, those accessories are useful to 80% of the users that purchase a new phone, be it because they're actually new users or because they sold their previous accessories along with their phone after upgrading.

Apple has scale either way.

 

If you think only 20% of iPhones sold are to existing iphone owners, I think you're crazy.

 

You don't need an iPhone charger to charge an iPhone-- unless what you're trying to say is that 80% of iPhone purchasers are first time smart phone buyers

[igormp]

3 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Here is the thing. It does not mater if you are in the apple system or not. the plug on the other side is either USB A or USB C. If you have been android all your life you are fine. If you have not had a phone before, like you are a kid getting your first phone, then you are also in a household that has other electronics that will have the plug.

If you are going up a social class and getting your first ever electronic device as an adult so you have no ecosystem to fall back on and need the charger. THEN and only then do I think you have a point. but I also find it hard to believe the market there is significant enough to justify it.

Trading in phones, I have never seen them ask for all the accessories back, JUST the phone, the phone is what has value.

At this point in technology, it feels the same as demanding anything that plugs into AC MUST also include a receptacle that the end user has to attach to their wall. Which is crazy, you just need the plug that goes into the receptacle. the edge cases can be handled by the user (like they live off the grid and need a generator)

As mentioned before, your point would be more reasonable if at least apple gave their users an A to lightning cable, instead of C to A. Most people I know don't have a USB-C charger, only A, and that's the relevant market here since the ban was specific to Brazil.

If you want to argue about the people around you, then I won't comment on that since I don't have the context to contest you.

 

3 minutes ago, Obioban said:

If you think only 20% of iPhones sold are to existing iphone owners, I think you're crazy.

Well, mind explaining the numbers then or providing other sources? That may be not the case in the US for sure, as the statistics in that website also show, but do seem representative of their sales worldwide, and if you don't have any sources to backup your claims, then you're the delusional one here.

4 minutes ago, Obioban said:

You don't need an iPhone charger to charge an iPhone-- unless what you're trying to say is that 80% of iPhone purchasers are first time smart phone buyers

See my reply to the post above yours.

[Obioban]

If 80% of iPhone sales are to first time iPhone customers, they're going to have 100% marketshare world wide in short order

(since they lead the industry in customer loyalty, at 91%)

[igormp]

19 minutes ago, Obioban said:

If 80% of iPhone sales are to first time iPhone customers, they're going to have 100% marketshare world wide in short order

(since they lead the industry in customer loyalty, at 91%)

You're assuming the entire world population already has phones, that's not the case *yet*.

 

Also, apple isn't as dominant worldwide as it is in the US, but they are indeed increasing their market share in other countries over time.

[Obioban]

3 minutes ago, igormp said:

You're assuming the entire world population already has phones, that's not the case *yet*.

 

Also, apple isn't as dominant worldwide as it is in the US, but they are indeed increasing their market share in other countries over time.

I think you're just grossly incorrect in you assumption of 80% of iPhone customers being first time iPhone customers.

[igormp]

47 minutes ago, Obioban said:

I think you're just grossly incorrect in you assumption of 80% of iPhone customers being first time iPhone customers.

And you gave no numbers proving otherwise, just kept shitposting and moving goalposts.

[suicidalfranco]

49 minutes ago, Obioban said:

I think you're just grossly incorrect in you assumption of 80% of iPhone customers being first time iPhone customers.

either your reading comprehension sucks hard or the school system failed hard.

The math here isn't 80% of iphone users are first time buyers, what the numbers posted above are telling is that out of the 200+ million sold iPhone between 2020 and 2021, 80% of those were bought by first time iPhone buyers.

Not that 80% of Apple marketshare are first time Apple buyers.

[kumicota]

9 hours ago, Dracarris said:

correct wording is "A lot of stuff that the majority of buyers doesn't need and is straight (E-)Waste".

Congrats on the gaslight. I bet you act like a grammar-nazi but don't even know how to speak more than 1 language.

 

9 hours ago, Dracarris said:

this whole 1/4 postulation was a straight out lie!

I payed about R$ 1000 on a poco x3 pro, that came with a 35W charge, cable, stickers, phone and case. It's about 1/4 and came with more than the iphone here.

 

9 hours ago, Dracarris said:

apparently there is also some kind of cash discount available

Which don't make it better, when a xiaomi, motorola, lenovo comes with charges and are cheaper

 

 

A bit of culture explanation, unlike in "rich" countries, Brazilians tends to resell their older phones instead of throwing them into a drawer and when resseling them, you give the charger, cable and more with the phone. This makes that you don't have a lot of charges laying around

[Dracarris]

15 minutes ago, kumicota said:

I bet you act like a grammar-nazi but don't even know how to speak more than 1 language.

Hm lets see. No and no.

15 minutes ago, kumicota said:

It's about 1/4 and came with more than the iphone here.

Which clearly makes it an outstanding value, as all those accessories are essential. Especially the stickers.

18 minutes ago, kumicota said:

A bit of culture explanation, unlike in "rich" countries, Brazilians tends to resell their older phones instead of throwing them into a drawer and when resseling them, you give the charger, cable and more with the phone.

That's for sure not a Brazil-only thing but also happens in "rich" countries a lot, especially with iphones since they are quite good at keeping high resell values.

[Blademaster91]

10 hours ago, Dracarris said:

So it's a 200$ phone and the statement "a quarter of the price of the cheapest iphone" was a straight-out lie by @Forbidden Wafer that is now just ignored? Cables tend to break indeed most often so to include those makes sense.

The cheapest iphone that isn't terribly outdated is the iphone 12, which is $600.

And if someone is breaking cables that much, then maybe they should reconsider how they're handling stuff. Though Apple cables are flimsy garbage so of course they include one in the box.

10 hours ago, Dracarris said:

"Everything you need"? You had a slight typo there, correct wording is "A lot of stuff that the majority of buyers doesn't need and is straight (E-)Waste". And the charger is still the worst offender here, it still has a rather complex mix of materials and rather complex to produce.

I meant what I said there, so no need to try to gaslight me,lol. A $200 phone that includes accessories, yet $1000 phones don't, you're really missing the point if you can't realize how ridiculous that is. If you have a source that shows a majority of buyers not needing a charger then provide one. You're just repeating the green marketing crap Apple convinced their fans to believe, the worst offender is selling a new phone every year that is only a minor upgrade of the previous one, while telling their fanbase they need to buy the latest one. And its the same company that tells people to buy an iPhone if they want to send high quality photos or videos to others, instead of just letting people use an open source messaging standard.

[Dracarris]

14 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

The cheapest iphone that isn't terribly outdated is the iphone 12, which is $600.

Excuse me, what? The latest SE is from 2022 with an A15 chip (faster than any Android flagship) and 5G. Terribly outdated because it uses an old outer design? Ridiculous. It lacks flagship features, that doesn't make it outdated.

 

It's a current iphone, it starts at 429 USD, period.

[starsmine]

2 hours ago, kumicota said:

A bit of culture explanation, unlike in "rich" countries, Brazilians tends to resell their older phones instead of throwing them into a drawer and when resseling them, you give the charger, cable and more with the phone. This makes that you don't have a lot of charges laying around

Rich countries turn in their phone all the time. I dont know what that point means. What we DONT do is return the charger and cable.
Cables are consumables, Chargers are a dime a dozon.

[mr moose]

4 pages later and people still haven't gotten their heads around the concept that consumer law applies to all products not just the cheap ones. 

[Sauron]

On 9/10/2022 at 12:44 PM, mr moose said:

The law seems to be based on the principal that not everyone has a charger already, so by not providing one in the package the product is incomplete and theretofore not operational as advertised.  It may seem like a stupid argument in our vastly materialistic 1st world culture where we have electronics to excess, but to brazil where almost 20% the population lives in abject poverty and god knows where the median income lies,  consumer products like consoles and top tier phones come with consumer protection laws for different reasons.

Plus Apple insisting on using their proprietary connector means that even if you already have a charger from a previous phone you owned there's no guarantee it will be compatible.

On 9/10/2022 at 8:35 PM, Kisai said:

nobody needs to own more than two USB chargers in general.

I own about a dozen and I still find myself wishing I had more at times. USB chargers are some of the most universally useful devices you can have and they can be used to power a lot more than just phones.

[Gamer Schnitzel]

Apple is completely in the right here.

Adding chargers to every phone purchase is completely braindead. I have like 4 or more Samsung chargers from back in the day all over the place and to top it off I don't even need them because all power strips today have USB sockets anyway.

People are not crying because they don't have a charger. They are crying because they are pathetic and just want to feel like they can get more stuff for the same cost. They are the kind of people who would go into a McDonald's back in the day and grab 5 hands full of tissues and condiments and this is why now you have to ask for this at the till.

Anyone who says that they want them to add chargers has chargers left and right in their home and this is something I can guarantee.

 

The reason why it is Brazil doing this and not Germany is because Brazil is anything else than modern. People have a very old mindset and this is why they just think that the more stuff they get in a box when they buy something the better because people back in the day loved clutter and "stuff" they can touch. Even if you don't have any USB port in your house to charge without the plug you could buy a charger very cheaply online.

Hopefully Apple simply creates a SKU in Brazil where you get a charger in your box if you pay $100 more. Maybe then the boomer population in Brazil will shut it.

[starsmine]

2 hours ago, Sauron said:

Plus Apple insisting on using their proprietary connector means that even if you already have a charger from a previous phone you owned there's no guarantee it will be compatible.

When did usb C become a proprietary connector?

[Sauron]

31 minutes ago, starsmine said:

When did usb C become a proprietary connector?

They didn't use USB-C until last year, which also means if your previous phone was an iphone and you're buying a new iphone your previous charger isn't compatible. Plus I'm assuming this lawsuit has been around since before the switch.

[starsmine]

6 minutes ago, Sauron said:

They didn't use USB-C until last year, which also means if your previous phone was an iphone and you're buying a new iphone your previous charger isn't compatible. Plus I'm assuming this lawsuit has been around since before the switch.

They switched from USB-A.
And no, they have come with USB C cables since at least the 11, if not earlier.

[Donut417]

3 minutes ago, starsmine said:

They switched from USB-A.
And no, they have come with USB C cables since at least the 11, if not earlier.

The XR came with a type A to lightning. So definitely didn’t implement it earlier than the 11. 

[Sauron]

5 minutes ago, starsmine said:

They switched from USB-A.

I'm talking about the lightning connector... in fact I thought they'd switched this year but apparently not

 

[starsmine]

Just now, Sauron said:

I'm talking about the lightning connector... in fact I thought they'd switched this year but apparently not

 

so... That has zero to do with compatibility with chargers is my point.
Did you think apple people had to use only apple chargers?