Not-so Epic anymore, eh? - Epic won’t update Fortnite to run on the Steam Deck (well, Linux in general too)

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, porina said:

But you can install Windows??? I assume it wont be easy to use Windows without external keyboard/mouse.

Specifically right now no Windows isn't an option as there is no drivers for the APU yet. There are other handheld gaming devices like this that do run Windows, you don't need a keyboard and mouse however usability isn't nearly as good. It's not that much of a problem if you only use it as a gaming device though.

 

But since it's actually also a good computer a USB-C dock and you'll have usability of multiple different use cases from one device. It's potentially quite a good device, however not a replacement for a laptop or tablet. So it's a little iffy on the whole dock idea when equivalent RDNA2 APUs hit laptops and desktops. So basically yea make sure if buying it's for the handheld gaming primarily.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

7 minutes ago, porina said:

Ok, not as tight as it first looked. The max 512GB standard offering doesn't go very far with games, unless all you play are indies. Then again, with the screen resolution you're not likely downloading HD texture packs either.

 

I've always liked the idea of a handheld PC (as opposed to non-PC devices) so I'll keep an eye on future iterations.

Well, with huge microsds being a thing ( and working great for the games allowed) and the option for even more storage, it’s plenty for gaming

[porina]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

There are other handheld gaming devices like this that do run Windows, you don't need a keyboard and mouse however usability isn't nearly as good. It's not that much of a problem if you only use it as a gaming device though.

I was thinking, as a Windows gaming device (not SteamOS) then the biggest hurdles are getting it set up in the first place and game launchers installed and working. After that, not so bad I guess? Just need enough to launch games.

 

I guess the advantages of SteamOS over Steam on Windows will be mostly UI related, but running Windows games natively should give fewer problems and limitations on that side.

[Dash Lambda]

As someone who has worked professionally on Linux compatibility for Unreal-based projects: It's not easy and it's very much not fun.

 

Epic could probably make it a lot easier if they wanted to. They don't really want to. They told me.

 

Hopefully the Steam Deck gives them a good reason.

[porina]

6 minutes ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

Well, with huge microsds being a thing ( and working great for the games allowed) and the option for even more storage, it’s plenty for gaming

I'm probably looking at it too much from a higher end gaming PC perspective, but that isn't the goal and shouldn't be judged as such. I just had a look on the higher end of SD cards, I'm seeing up to 512GB capacity with reads up to 180MB/s. So something more like an early gen SATA SSD and competitive with bigger hard disks. To be fair, I probably wont need more than 1TB of games installed at any one time (even on desktop), so between the built in and SD expansion it can be adequate. 

[Arika]

Oh no, a mediocre game not being released on a overall fairly niche device

[Mark Kaine]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Specifically right now no Windows isn't an option as there is no drivers for the APU yet.

Ah, those pesky details is nothing modders cant fix within an hour or so max ; )

 

Would surprise me if they didnt…

[Roswell]

Virtually every Steam/Valve hardware endeavor has failed miserably or at best, flopped, regardless of the hype.

 

Seems like a wise move not to dump resources into a platform from a company with such a poor track record.

[PocketNerd]

Epic turns out to be a corporation only focused on non-sustainably increasing profits for its benefit and is not actually our friend?!

I'm shocked! Absolutely SHOCKED, I tell you!

[Quackers101]

1 hour ago, Roswell said:

Seems like a wise move not to dump resources into a platform from a company with such a poor track record.

true for a product, but if its just ignoring linux as a platform and the proton support overall. it goes beyond this product?
As some others mentioned about the unreal engine and linux.

[tim0901]

5 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

Yes

yep

no, on screen keyboard, plus touch inputs, plus toutchpads on the sides as mouse will be fine.

if it can install either it can dual boot, just need to install grub

not really, it can get up to 512gb, plus microsd, plus upgradable to like 2tb storage

 

How are the drivers for the touch screen, controller and touch-pads on Windows?

 

Generally speaking compatibility for this sort of stuff is awful outside of the OS its intended for. Anyone who has tried to get touch-screens to work under Linux will know how much of a pain that is. The dual touchpads and rear buttons will be particularly sore points given they are completely proprietary control schemes - not to mention stuff like the gyro controls. Unless Valve releases dedicated Windows driver packages (as far as I'm aware they have made no such commitments) I doubt the Steam Deck will be particularly well featured under Windows. It may be possible to use these controls when running Steam games, but I believe you would need system-wide compatibility to use them to play something like Fortnite.

 

Personally I - like many here it seems - don't exactly buy into the extreme hype around this device. I don't see it having that much appeal outside of die-hard PC gamers - most people don't buy consoles for the hardware after all - and as such can't see it hitting the sales figures that would be required for games companies to start worrying about Linux support. As Linus and Luke said in the Linux challenge: a PC that can't play the games your friends are playing is not a good experience. Not being able to play the latest big hit games is a big deal, especially if you're trying to compete with traditional consoles. Installing Windows on this thing is something that many people will not be comfortable doing - especially younger audiences.

 

I imagine it will - in the long term - have a similar fate as VR - an initial big hit that will sell out to the community it is targeting, but will likely fail to branch out beyond that niche and make much of an impact in the wider markets. I can't see any parents running out to buy their kid a Steam Deck instead of a Switch or Xbox/Playstation. It just doesn't have that level of appeal.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

2 minutes ago, tim0901 said:

How are the drivers for the touch screen, controller and touch-pads on Windows?

 

Generally speaking compatibility for this sort of stuff is awful outside of the OS its intended for. Anyone who has tried to get touch-screens to work under Linux will know how much of a pain that is. The dual touchpads and rear buttons will be particularly sore points given they are completely proprietary control schemes - not to mention stuff like the gyro controls. Unless Valve releases dedicated Windows driver packages (as far as I'm aware they have made no such commitments) I doubt the Steam Deck will be particularly well featured under Windows. It may be possible to use these controls when running Steam games, but I believe you would need system-wide compatibility to use them to play something like Fortnite.

Windows has really good default toutchscreen drivers (I’ve never had to find One for any laptop), though should work fine

theres xbox controlers with back buttons that work fine under windows, windows will probably pick it up as a Xbox controler if I had to guess

 But non of that matters, because I found this

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/steam-deck-windows-11-tpm-compatibility/

 

they said stuff like “so much work on windows 10”

[tim0901]

1 minute ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

Windows has really good default toutchscreen drivers (I’ve never had to find One for any laptop), though should work fine

theres xbox controlers with back buttons that work fine under windows, windows will probably pick it up as a Xbox controler if I had to guess

 But non of that matters, because I found this

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/steam-deck-windows-11-tpm-compatibility/

 

they said stuff like “so much work on windows 10”

They also said stuff like

Quote

It's a console-like experience that you're going to struggle to emulate on a Windows 11 system. 

and

Quote

for now the native Linux operating system that ships with the Deck looks like it will give PC gamers the optimum handheld experience.

Nothing in that article suggests that the device will work just as well in Windows as in Linux. All its saying is that Win 11 will be installable because they've managed to add a TPM module to the machine last minute.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

13 hours ago, leadeater said:

Way I read this I see it as being more opposed to SteamOS itself, even with the comment about Linux being small and difficult to serve. Feels more targeted specifically at SteamOS to me. In a way makes sense from their perspective, would you so eagerly assist your largest competitor with a product that could be a massive success that is largely tied to or at least attributed to your competing service (Steam Store).

 

Seems to be more about the Steam Store to me anyway.

Call me a Epic Games hater but isn't this the same person who created this whole crusade to allow gamers the choice to choose their game launcher/store platform? From the whole Epic vs. Apple debacle? 

 

_{Can people tell I really do not like Tim Sweeney?}

[Helpful Tech Witch]

2 minutes ago, tim0901 said:

They also said stuff like

and

Nothing in that article suggests that the device will work just as well in Windows as in Linux. All its saying is that Win 11 will be installable because they've managed to add a TPM module to the machine last minute.

But valve wouldn’t say that the steam deck will support it if it’s a shitty driverless mess

[AlTech]

1 hour ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

But valve wouldn’t say that the steam deck will support it if it’s a shitty driverless mess

I don't believe they ever said they will support Windows. I believe their statements were more akin to saying you can install Windows just like you can install Windows on a PC you own. They're not going to be helping you if you have issues with the SteamDeck on Windows though.

 

Their priority is SteamOS and the experience is being targeted with that in mind. If you use Windows, you throw out everything Valve's doing software wise for the Deck which is a lot.

[Shimejii]

Why would they ever want to support it? SteamOS and linux gaming in general is complete Dogshit. It will never take off and should be given up at this point, If it hasnt happened yet it wont ever happen for linux. You are more likely to completely make a new Operating system based on a new Code/programming then you are to get linux gaming to take off.

 

Also Adding steam to them really wont increase their playerbase, Fortnite has peaked at it wont ever get back the vast majority of the playerbase that left. Missing out on 20-30% just to gain a few players back for a few months with all the time and money spent on dev time makes no sense. 

 

Stop asking for devs to things that dont matter to the vast majority of gamers. Linux gaming will never take off, and people who keep saying it will are delusional. Steam has put a TON of effort in to get linux gaming working, and that costs an absolute fuckton of money for a measly few thousand people to play on it. SteamOS/Linux gaming on steam is pretty much only done because of the amount theyve already invested. If they have a change of leadership, and they want to focus more on profits, you shouldnt be suprised when  Linux gaming is one of the first things that get dropped.

 

Paying millions for a small number of people for most companies does not make sense, they care more about profits then the end users and its just a money pit without any chance of return.

 

Im not saying windows is perfect, it has its fair share of issues, but at least you can game on it easily and pretty much hastle free. 

[Brooksie359]

18 hours ago, Arika S said:

People were saying the same thing about VR when Valvue released the index...that didn't take off at ALL

VR in general hasn't taken off so it was safe to assume it would be the same for the index. Compare that to handheld gaming devices and you can see there is a clear market for it already so it has a much higher likelihood to succeed. The problem with the index is that it cost alot to have a pc powerful enough to run vr and then the headset cost alot as well. Combine that with the need to have room to play vr and you can see the issue. Honestly if it wasn't for the fact that I simply don't have enough room I would buy a headset. Honestly I would imagine having enough room is a problem for quite a few people. 

[Sauron]

12 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

Because they don’t need to port it

thwy just need to flip a toggle in the eac web portal to allow the anti cheat to run in proton or steam play or whatever

no recompilation or update, just a single toggle

I strongly doubt that's the case. Anti-cheat being able to run on linux natively or through proton is a prerequisite to any of this working but that doesn't mean it's the only thing they need to touch. Plus by allowing it they'd be opening the flood gates to linux specific support tickets, which are inevitable especially when you use a compatibility layer.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

VR in general hasn't taken off so it was safe to assume it would be the same for the index. Compare that to handheld gaming devices and you can see there is a clear market for it already so it has a much higher likelihood to succeed. The problem with the index is that it cost alot to have a pc powerful enough to run vr and then the headset cost alot as well. Combine that with the need to have room to play vr and you can see the issue. Honestly if it wasn't for the fact that I simply don't have enough room I would buy a headset. Honestly I would imagine having enough room is a problem for quite a few people. 

Not really. Pretty every device that wasn't Nintendo has failed as a handheld.

 

Handheld gaming falls into three categories:

1. Proprietary device (DS, 3DS, Wii U controller, Switch, also PSP)

2. Touch device emulating a proprietary device (eg virtual joypad/buttons), which is a horrible experience

3. iPhone or iPad-like experience designed around touch input.

 

The Steam deck, just like -every- other "not-Nintendo" proprietary device before it, will fail. Unlike every previous device, Valve is at least making some effort of leveraging their own store, so it won't be a "dead on arrival" product, unlike previous devices. Previous devices basically just show Nintendo emulators, and are in a sense, piracy devices first: GP32, Gizmondo, GP2X, etc.

 

Like there's Linus with the latest crowdfunded one. They are routinely failures, and expecting anything but failure is the norm. These devices are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, that being "how to play pc (or emulated) games on a handheld" that nobody asked to do.

 

Maybe Valve might have more success since they can map the input of games, but it's not going to be a out-of-the-box box experience, there will be a lot of fiddling involved, even for things that claim to run on it. But the Steam Machine platform has also been pretty much a failure, so this device is just learning from the previous failures.

https://www.gamesradar.com/gabe-newell-opens-up-on-why-steam-machines-didnt-work-out-in-latest-edge-magazine/

Quote

After discussing how Valve fell in love with their plan without seeing customers do the same, he spoke in detail about the key issue regarding Steam Machines. Newell explained, "The hardware we were pushing for was super-incomplete at the time. I thought, ‘This is clearly where we all want to end up, and this is a point along the pathway to getting us there’.

"And people were like, ‘Yes, but you’re asking me to pay you money for the privilege of being on your roadmap, and I’m not really sure what I’m getting out of this at this time’. We needed to be a lot further along in terms of delivering polished consumer experiences before we were trying to get people to actually pay money for those things."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an actual "competitor to a Nintendo handheld", but that is not going to be a Android-based or Linux-based device, that is going to have to be a device that is designed like a handheld console from the very start, complete with an OS designed for that hardware and can play games designed for consoles, mobile (touch oriented) games, and WASD-style keyboard+mouse input games. I don't see the Steam Deck actually making inroads against Nintendo, let alone Apple. Linux doesn't solve that. Windows doesn't solve that. Android doesn't solve that. All these OS's are poorly married to the hardware they run on.

 

 

[Video Beagle]

22 hours ago, porina said:

I get the feeling that it being on Steam is the bigger problem than it being Linux

This is the only thing.

Everything else is window dressing and hand waving for the rubes.

[porina]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

These devices are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, that being "how to play pc (or emulated) games on a handheld" that nobody asked to do.

Portable PC gaming (not laptops) is a logical extension but the main problem is the hardware generally hasn't been there to support it. Only recently have APUs been getting to the point where it starts to be more viable. It might not be a massive market, but I wouldn't write it off as one.

 

The various past attempts by others that didn't take off isn't a surprise to me. You have relatively unknown players, often needing to pay in advance, for something you're not sure about? It's a different situation with a bigger well known player involved.

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Maybe Valve might have more success since they can map the input of games, but it's not going to be a out-of-the-box box experience, there will be a lot of fiddling involved, even for things that claim to run on it.

There's one class of gaming that is ideally suited to the platform with minimal effort: games already on console in addition to PC. Games that were already designed with a controller in mind would need minimal mapping, maybe even none if the device natively emulates an xbox controller.

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an actual "competitor to a Nintendo handheld", but that is not going to be a Android-based or Linux-based device, that is going to have to be a device that is designed like a handheld console from the very start, complete with an OS designed for that hardware and can play games designed for consoles, mobile (touch oriented) games, and WASD-style keyboard+mouse input games. I don't see the Steam Deck actually making inroads against Nintendo, let alone Apple. Linux doesn't solve that. Windows doesn't solve that. Android doesn't solve that. All these OS's are poorly married to the hardware they run on.

I don't think that is the point. It is not trying to be a totally new gaming platform, but an extension of an existing one. It wont be suitable for all games, but if enough games work, it can work, and we might even see other large players move into the space.

 

I wouldn't compare Apple or mobile gaming category in general as most of it is a different type of gameplay. Switch, is always an awkward one. Finally picking one up last year, I still wonder why due to the limited game choice on it. Not that there aren't games, just not a lot I'm actually interested in. And that's the reason I'm not too into the Stream Deck personally, since the most logical games for it are not ones I personally care about, but certainly I'm not alone in that as consoles (xbox, PS) exist.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Not really. Pretty every device that wasn't Nintendo has failed as a handheld.

 

Handheld gaming falls into three categories:

1. Proprietary device (DS, 3DS, Wii U controller, Switch, also PSP)

2. Touch device emulating a proprietary device (eg virtual joypad/buttons), which is a horrible experience

3. iPhone or iPad-like experience designed around touch input.

 

The Steam deck, just like -every- other "not-Nintendo" proprietary device before it, will fail. Unlike every previous device, Valve is at least making some effort of leveraging their own store, so it won't be a "dead on arrival" product, unlike previous devices. Previous devices basically just show Nintendo emulators, and are in a sense, piracy devices first: GP32, Gizmondo, GP2X, etc.

 

Like there's Linus with the latest crowdfunded one. They are routinely failures, and expecting anything but failure is the norm. These devices are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, that being "how to play pc (or emulated) games on a handheld" that nobody asked to do.

 

Maybe Valve might have more success since they can map the input of games, but it's not going to be a out-of-the-box box experience, there will be a lot of fiddling involved, even for things that claim to run on it. But the Steam Machine platform has also been pretty much a failure, so this device is just learning from the previous failures.

https://www.gamesradar.com/gabe-newell-opens-up-on-why-steam-machines-didnt-work-out-in-latest-edge-magazine/

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an actual "competitor to a Nintendo handheld", but that is not going to be a Android-based or Linux-based device, that is going to have to be a device that is designed like a handheld console from the very start, complete with an OS designed for that hardware and can play games designed for consoles, mobile (touch oriented) games, and WASD-style keyboard+mouse input games. I don't see the Steam Deck actually making inroads against Nintendo, let alone Apple. Linux doesn't solve that. Windows doesn't solve that. Android doesn't solve that. All these OS's are poorly married to the hardware they run on.

 

 

Honestly I think a big reason why the switch and other Nintendo handheld were so popular is because Nintendo did a great job creating games that were designed around being played on a handheld. I do see this being a problem for the steam deck as most steam games are designed for keyboard and mouse and maybe controller. They aren't really designed to be played on a handheld. 

[williamcll]

Doesn't VAC struggle on ubuntu?

[Kisai]

10 minutes ago, porina said:

Portable PC gaming (not laptops) is a logical extension but the main problem is the hardware generally hasn't been there to support it. Only recently have APUs been getting to the point where it starts to be more viable. It might not be a massive market, but I wouldn't write it off as one.

We've had "gaming laptops" for years, and they are:

1. Weak, unless you're willing to fork out for a desktop replacement

2. Heavy, unless you're willing to only play web browser games

3. Noisy

 

Like I literately make a "oh not this crap again" face every time I see a tech enthusiast get excited about gaming performance on a laptop and they have noise benchmarks. Yes, you can run a game on a laptop, no it does in fact suck compared to the Nintendo devices which are silent.

 

10 minutes ago, porina said:

The various past attempts by others that didn't take off isn't a surprise to me. You have relatively unknown players, often needing to pay in advance, for something you're not sure about? It's a different situation with a bigger well known player involved.

Yet both Google and Valve have a track record of "devices they make get binned in two years", Valve's only advantage here is that there are enough stupid nerds who are willing to buy this product and be perpetual alpha testers.

 

 

10 minutes ago, porina said:

There's one class of gaming that is ideally suited to the platform with minimal effort: games already on console in addition to PC. Games that were already designed with a controller in mind would need minimal mapping, maybe even none if the device natively emulates an xbox controller.

Right, but are these game developers going to make a Linux SteamOS native port? No. They won't unless it's a Unity game that already has that export target.

 

10 minutes ago, porina said:

I don't think that is the point. It is not trying to be a totally new gaming platform, but an extension of an existing one. It wont be suitable for all games, but if enough games work, it can work, and we might even see other large players move into the space.

Meh, I doubt it. Proton is a crutch, not a solution. If you're a game developer, and you see a market of 0%, you're not going to develop for it. What Valve should have been doing from the start is developing a "middleware" that is a drop-in replacement for Win32 API's that the developer only has to hit compile for. Then games that developed against that that middleware natively, can run on Windows, MacOS and Linux and any thing else. Think SDL but for the entire stack (Vulkan, Audio and HRTF, Video playback, VR, HID input, Network, Threading, "IAP" without a webview), basically think about why so many game engines like Unreal and Unity actually kind of suck for indie developers due to the over-dependence on platform-specific features.

 

10 minutes ago, porina said:

I wouldn't compare Apple or mobile gaming category in general as most of it is a different type of gameplay. Switch, is always an awkward one. Finally picking one up last year, I still wonder why due to the limited game choice on it. Not that there aren't games, just not a lot I'm actually interested in. And that's the reason I'm not too into the Stream Deck personally, since the most logical games for it are not ones I personally care about, but certainly I'm not alone in that as consoles (xbox, PS) exist.

 

I'm not into the Steam Deck precisely because I don't see it as a solution to anything that needed to be solved. Sure Linus and various other tech enthusiasts get hot and sweaty over "new tech" stuff, we all do, but most of these devices end up being door-stops.