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Apple Aims to Sell Macs With Its Own Chips Starting in 2021

hishnash
By hishnash
in Tech News
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Posted

Yet another report suggesting we are about to see ARM backs begging of 2021:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-23/apple-aims-to-sell-macs-with-its-own-chips-starting-in-2021
 

Quote

The first Mac processors will have eight high-performance cores, codenamed Firestorm, and at least four energy-efficient cores, known internally as Icestorm. Apple is exploring Mac processors with more than 12 cores for further in the future,

If these are devices aimed to compete with entry level macBookAir then a 12Core ARM cpu will destroy the intel cpu in the macBookAir.

Acording to https://www.macrumors.com/2020/04/23/12-core-arm-macs-2021-report/
 

Quote

Like the A14 chip, the Mac processors are expected to be manufactured by TSMC based on its 5nm process.

This would but these chips quite a bit ahead of intels.

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Hopefully this doesn't lead to segmentation in the software world. It didn't back in the days when they use PowerPC chips 

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Just keeping this here as a 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19 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

This will be super cool as long as it isn't in their MacBook Pro lineup for a couple years. I wonder if the ARM chips will have x86 emulation. 

Apple could (if they wanted) produce ARM chips easily able to compete in performance with the intel i9H mobile chips. 

apple dropped support for 32bit x86 last year. so they only support AMD64 instructions in macOS. I recon if apple want to provide support for this they are best off using AMDs Zen platforms to build a MCM module with an AppleARM64 die and a Zen2 die (like the ryzen desktop cpus).

MacOS is already able to detect (on a per process biases) what instruction set it supports and is already (due to the last cpu transitions that apple did) able to controle where each binary is run. So the operating system is ready for running with both an AMD64 and an ARM64 chip and is able to schedule tasks onto those chips depending on the programs instruction set.

So If apple do do a macBookPro in the next 2 years i expect them to do something like this. 

 

 

Just now, BuckGup said:

Hopefully this doesn't lead to segmentation in the software world. It didn't back in the days when they use PowerPC chips 

MacOS has supported shipping applications compiled for multiple cpus since the PowerPC transition.

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3 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Apple could (if they wanted) produce ARM chips easily able to compete in performance with the intel i9H mobile chips. 

apple dropped support for 32bit x86 last year. so they only support AMD64 instructions in macOS. I recon if apple want to provide support for this they are best off using AMDs Zen platforms to build a MCM module with an AppleARM64 die and a Zen2 die (like the ryzen desktop cpus).

MacOS is already able to detect (on a per process biases) what instruction set it supports and is already (due to the last cpu transitions that apple did) able to controle where each binary is run. So the operating system is ready for running with both an AMD64 and an ARM64 chip and is able to schedule tasks onto those chips depending on the programs instruction set.

So If apple do do a macBookPro in the next 2 years i expect them to do something like this. 

 

 

MacOS has supported shipping applications compiled for multiple cpus since the PowerPC transition.

Well damn I didn't know that

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Posted

And the walls of the Walled Garden close in some more.

Jeannie

 

As long as anyone is oppressed, no one will be safe and free.

One has to be proactive, not reactive, to ensure the safety of one's data so backup your data! And RAID is NOT a backup!

 

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I will believe it when I see it. I still think ARM is going to have trouble competing in the laptop space due to dual boot being quite popular for macbooks. 

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33 minutes ago, hishnash said:

If these are devices aimed to compete with entry level macBookAir then a 12Core ARM cpu will destroy the intel cpu in the macBookAir.

Not too hard considering the cpu in the macbook air is comically underpowered

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

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5 minutes ago, mrchow19910319 said:

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Emulating ARM with x86 cpus is actually pretty easy so... maybe not

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

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10 minutes ago, mrchow19910319 said:

11111111.png

this is not 100% true:

1) apple tend to support macs with the latest version of macOS for 5 after sale so if apple stop selling any x86 macs in 2021 then it would be 2026 when there is an os release that is ARM only. But if they continue to sell just 1 mac in 2022 that is x86 they will still support x86 in 2026.

2) if you can buy an ARM system in 2025 there is nothing apple can do to stop the hackentosh community from getting it to work. Remember the macOS kernel is open source. 

That is not to say it will be easy at first, they will need to put in a lot of work (just like they have already done for x86 hackentosh) what might be the death of it is the availability of ARM systems to run it on. Or at least the point of running it (outside of fun). Moving to ARM will mean that apple will have the best CPUs on the market by a large margin, if you go get a non apple ARM platform it will most likly be a suppor low powered system (or a large server system) but not something that will compare to the macs perfomance in desktop tasks.


 

 

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Emulating ARM with x86 cpus is actually pretty easy so... maybe not

or just get an ARM system.

 

8 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Not too hard considering the cpu in the macbook air is comically underpowered

That is true, i would not be surprised if the apple TV 4k (with its 5 year old cpu, lower binned) has about the same performance as the 2020 macBookAir. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

And the walls of the Walled Garden close in some more.

Changing to ARM in may ways reduces the walls, unlike x86-64 any cpu vendor can pay ARM for a license.

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4 minutes ago, hishnash said:

or just get an ARM system.

Sure but this being custom hardware you'd still need a layer of emulation.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

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6 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Sure but this being custom hardware you'd still need a layer of emulation.

the macOS kernel is open source (the hackentosh community already depend on this today) you will be able to boot the kernel on any ARM platform, apple cant stop you doing this, does not really matter how hard they try.  Once the kernel has booted (and you have a patched version) you will be able to do a lot of things that will let you run the rest (of the closed source os).

The difficulty will be with things like Wifi and Bluetoth drivers mostly, with apple having purchases intel wireless teams im sure they will start to move that inside thier SOC. That will mean that armMacOS will only ship with drivers for apples wifi chips. So the hackentosh community will need to write drivers for other chips (luckily all of the ARM compatible wifi chips have good linux drivers so it should not be impossible to set up some bridge from the BSD (macos is bsd at a driver level) apis to the linux apis.

Also with apple pushing more and more for UserSpace drivers it is possible that these drivers could even be writen as user-space so dont even need a kernal extension patch.

i would expect apple to still use AMD Gpus on thier higherend macs so macOS will ship with drivers for them just like it does today.
 

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9 minutes ago, hishnash said:

apple cant stop you doing this, does not really matter how hard they try. 

They definitely could by adding a hardware identity check. Since they're making this in house they could also just request some ISA extensions that other manufacturers would not have. Also just because the source is available doesn't mean you can do what you want with it or build and release a modified version of the operating system; it helps but only up to a certain point. Running a Hackintosh well on AMD cpus is currently still a problem afaik.

12 minutes ago, hishnash said:

The difficulty will be with things like Wifi and Bluetoth drivers mostly

Actually probably not, a lot of manufacturers will still have interest in making their wireless adapters work with Macs.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

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3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

They definitely could by adding a hardware identity check. Since they're making this in house they could also just request some ISA extensions that other manufacturers would not have.

Yes they can do this but if the community puts in enough effort they could overcome these issues by replacing references to these instructions, if you controle the kernal you can do this. (however it would have a performance hit). 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Running a Hackintosh well on AMD cpus is currently still a problem afaik.

True but its not impossible.
 

7 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Actually probably not, a lot of manufacturers will still have interest in making their wireless adapters work with Macs.

That depends on if apple provide user-space driver apis that can support what they need, (they do have a generic PCIe user space driver api already thorugh..) apple have already said they are not going to support new kernel space drivers in macOS. 

 

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2 hours ago, hishnash said:

Apple could (if they wanted) produce ARM chips easily able to compete in performance with the intel i9H mobile chips. 

apple dropped support for 32bit x86 last year. so they only support AMD64 instructions in macOS. I recon if apple want to provide support for this they are best off using AMDs Zen platforms to build a MCM module with an AppleARM64 die and a Zen2 die (like the ryzen desktop cpus).

MacOS is already able to detect (on a per process biases) what instruction set it supports and is already (due to the last cpu transitions that apple did) able to controle where each binary is run. So the operating system is ready for running with both an AMD64 and an ARM64 chip and is able to schedule tasks onto those chips depending on the programs instruction set.

So If apple do do a macBookPro in the next 2 years i expect them to do something like this. 

 

 

MacOS has supported shipping applications compiled for multiple cpus since the PowerPC transition.

I tried pointing out that apple could move to and AMD processor whenever they wanted.  But people where adamant that there were limitations that said they couldn't.

 

It honestly does not surprise me that they would be able to do it almost instantly if they wanted.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It honestly does not surprise me that they would be able to do it almost instantly if they wanted.

Given people have found references to AMDs Zen2 cpus in macOS its clear that they have systems running on zen somewhere.  

It might take them some time, not due to software, apple is all in on TB3 and they will want to have it `certified` so would require intel to do that. Intel might `drag their feet` certifying an apple device using AMD hardware...  With USB4 on the horizon this might be a lot better.

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13 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

A broken analogue clock is only right twice a day.

 

Every year, the same rumor, since Apple was making its own CPUs, I guess one day it will be correct.

Even if it did happen, this is bad for everyone. Nothing good comes from a company like Apple going full vertical 

🌲🌲🌲

 

 

 

◒ ◒ 

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2 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Even if it did happen, this is bad for everyone. Nothing good comes from a company like Apple going full vertical 

It gives me a reason not to buy into the ecosystem no matter how appealing an individual item may be at the time.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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3 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Even if it did happen, this is bad for everyone. Nothing good comes from a company like Apple going full vertical 

There might be something good in the use of ARM server side.  One of the reason we, developers, are less intrested about using ARM servers is the our local development systems are not on ARM.

Apple have a good proportion of the server developer community locked up using macOS (for many reasons), if these users move to ARM macs they will be much more open to using ARM servers due to the ability to build one docker image that runs on both your dev machine and your production (the aim of docker).

the other thing to consider is ARM is much less of a vertical than x86 anyone can buy an ARM license and build an ARM cpu.

 

 

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It gives me a reason not to buy into the ecosystem no matter how appealing an individual item may be at the time.

What do you mean? 

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1 minute ago, hishnash said:

There might be something good in the use of ARM server side.  One of the reason we, developers, are less intrested about using ARM servers is the our local development systems are not on ARM.

Apple have a good proportion of the server developer community locked up using macOS (for many reasons), if these users move to ARM macs they will be much more open to using ARM servers due to the ability to build one docker image that runs on both your dev machine and your production (the aim of docker).

the other thing to consider is ARM is much less of a vertical than x86 anyone can buy an ARM license and build an ARM cpu.

 

 

What do you mean? 

 

I hate walled gardens, from all companies, it's the only reason we no longer have ipads in our house.   Arika mentioned companies going full vertical, one of the side effects of that is often walled gardens.  Even android is walled to a degree,  I can buy the software from the manufacturing then put it on any device I want, I have to buy it through the app store or side load it, then if I want to buy an iphone I have to buy that same piece of software again for ios.  Now I realise that with mac it is not like that, most companies just sell you the one piece of software and you download the installer for your OS.  However if it does occur, then the ultimate reality of that will be that it gives me more impetus to avoid apple products even if one of them is appealing.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Arika mentioned companies going full vertical, one of the side effects of that is often walled gardens

I take it you dont own any game consoles? 
 

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Now I realise that with mac it is not like that, most companies just sell you the one piece of software and you download the installer for your OS.

Do you use windows? If you did own an xbox your logic would require you not to.

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1 minute ago, hishnash said:

I take it you dont own any game consoles? 
 

 

Do you use windows? If you did own an xbox your logic would require you not to.

The only consoles around here have been given to us (psone and ps2), I refuse to pay the price they ask, and If I buy the kids a game it is a traded in game, I refuse to pay A$80-90 for one game.  (if it is a good game with lots of content and completed on release (not a fucking zero day piece of shitware), I am happy to pay A$60.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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4 hours ago, hishnash said:

There might be something good in the use of ARM server side.  One of the reason we, developers, are less intrested about using ARM servers is the our local development systems are not on ARM.

Apple have a good proportion of the server developer community locked up using macOS (for many reasons), if these users move to ARM macs they will be much more open to using ARM servers due to the ability to build one docker image that runs on both your dev machine and your production (the aim of docker).

the other thing to consider is ARM is much less of a vertical than x86 anyone can buy an ARM license and build an ARM cpu.

 I think you've missed the point I was making. A vertical monopoly, which Apple is desperately trying to become, means they are not held accountable to anyone but themselves, giving them full control over everything they do. If Apple tried to do something Intel/AMD/any other supplier didn't like, they could cut supply per what ever contract terms were agreed to. A vertical monopoly is control over every stage if production, pricing can be what ever they like because there is no threat to their supply chain. 

 

A monopoly in any form means consumers lose. 

🌲🌲🌲

 

 

 

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