Do you/can you drive a manual?

[WkdPaul]

* thread cleaned ... Again ... *

[dalekphalm]

11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Many albums are remastered for CD.  In fact I would be surprised if you could find one that wasn't.

 

But to the rest of the discussion, why do people get so heavily opinionated about driving a manual?  There is literally nothing about a car that makes it more or less real than any other car.  There is no specific gearbox or engine arrangement that makes the owner more "real". 

 

 

 

You're not a real driver unless you hand crank the engine!

 

Yeah - where does it stop? Just because manuals are older tech and enjoyable for some people to drive doesn't make them to be-all/end-all. And it certainly doesn't mean you have to know how to drive one to "actually" know how to drive.

 

Granted, I've said before and I will say again, in some countries, from a practical standpoint (due to the abundance of manuals), you really should know how to drive one.

 

North America isn't one of those places.

[Drak3]

16 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

* thread cleaned ... Again ... *

Could you stop hiding the comments and just replace the contents with [Redacted]?
I’m having a real Groundhog Day moment over here.

[Monkey Dust]

29 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

That's simply because the producers aren't taking advantage of the technology available to them. They might need to remaster something for CD or Digital Download to get the most out of the medium.

 

Cassettes can actually sound far better than most people have experience with - check out some of the Techmoan reviews on YouTube - I was shocked with some of the quality levels he was able to achieve on Cassette.

 

Granted, most Cassette's are the cheap shitty kind, and most players don't recognize the more advanced anti-noise features on the more expensive cassettes.

 

But yes, CD simply has a technical advantage over Vinyl and Cassette, and can reproduce the original sound better, if taken advantage of.

The warm vinyl sound just sounds period correct for 60's & 70's music. The ritual of putting vinyl on too, puts you in the mood. Music is art, it's all subjective. And I will relent and use Spotify to satisfy a Curtis Mayfield craving if I'm not at home.

 

I'll hold up my hands, I'd forgotten about the 'metal' tapes. I don't recall ever hearing one, just being mystified by the metal button on my uncle high end Hi-Fi. They have got to be a whole another level of niche compared to vinyl. 

 

Circling back around to the original topic; Manuals maybe the technically inferior 'box, but they are still the right choice for some cars. Mostly light weight, fun focused cars such as MX5/Miata, Elise, Abarth 595 etc... Not for all out performance cars, DSG is king there, but the cars you can push to the limit on the road, the ones you can take liberties with without having racing driver reflexes. The best isn't always the most fun.

[bimmerman]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 

Many albums are remastered for CD.  In fact I would be surprised if you could find one that wasn't.

 

But to the rest of the discussion, why do people get so heavily opinionated about driving a manual?  There is literally nothing about a car that makes it more or less real than any other car.  There is no specific gearbox or engine arrangement that makes the owner more "real". 

 

 

 

I'm not sure "real" is the right description. I think the opinions vary wildly depending on what you're doing with the car, and how much you care about the intangibles (connection, driver focus, fun, annoyance, frustration, hatred, pleasure, etc) you get from driving a manual.

 

Modern automatics are objectively superior w/r/t fuel economy, are just as reliable, and sometimes faster in gear-to-gear shift speeds vs a skilled manual user. They are also far more consistent in that you don't have to have any skill or knowledge to use them to their fullest. Automated manuals like VW's DSG, Porsche's PDK, BMW's DCT, and the like, are the best of both worlds. Consistency and speed and idiot-proof, but when desired, respond to the driver's commands immediately.

 

I personally have yet to drive an automatic that I would want to own. I enjoy driving manual and executing well controlled heel-toe downshifts from a sporting and enthusiast side, sure, but more than that I cannot stand the delay an automatic injects into the driving experience. I want the car to be in specific gears and shift when I expect / command it. I don't want to click a paddle, wait wait wait wait oh we're shifting now? nope wait wait oh there it went finally. Modern automatics are better, but some (looking at you, Chrysler 200 with the 9 speed), are utterly unforgivably horrendous. The lack of response and command immediacy is the issue with automatics, for me. Automated clutched DCTs and the like, I'm on board with, because they actually do what the driver requests when the driver requests, not when it feels like it.

 

Example, from the (new!) Chrysler 200 I mentioned above. Was starting to merge onto the highway, going ~30 mph. Floor it. I counted two full seconds of foot-on-floor before the transmission decided to kick down 5 gears (!!) and finally begin to actually accelerate. Two seconds in which I was staring in my mirrors hoping the transmission would wake up before I got flattened by the semi truck. Screw automatics, when foot hits floor downshift NOW. Give me three pedals any day over that pile of utter junk, I will not yield control.

[kokakolia]

2 hours ago, Tog Driver said:

I'm not into watches, but I would much rather manual cars and vinyl/cassettes stayed.

 

what do you have against them?

I dipped my toes into vinyl and it sucked the joy out of music. Here are my complaints: 

- Takes up more space

- Most turntables suck unless you buy something for $500 which I didn’t have obviously 

- You expect vinyl to sound better than CD but I struggle to hear the difference. 
- Records easily get scratched and damaged. 
- 1 vinyl is easily worth 3 months of Spotify 

- You have to flip the disc halfway through

[dalekphalm]

1 hour ago, kokakolia said:

1 hour ago, kokakolia said:

- You expect vinyl to sound better than CD but I struggle to hear the difference. 

 

Why would you expect a vinyl to sound better than a CD? That’s the opposite of what you should expect - even with a high end system. 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, bimmerman said:

I'm not sure "real" is the right description. I think the opinions vary wildly depending on what you're doing with the car, and how much you care about the intangibles (connection, driver focus, fun, annoyance, frustration, hatred, pleasure, etc) you get from driving a manual.

 

Modern automatics are objectively superior w/r/t fuel economy, are just as reliable, and sometimes faster in gear-to-gear shift speeds vs a skilled manual user. They are also far more consistent in that you don't have to have any skill or knowledge to use them to their fullest. Automated manuals like VW's DSG, Porsche's PDK, BMW's DCT, and the like, are the best of both worlds. Consistency and speed and idiot-proof, but when desired, respond to the driver's commands immediately.

 

I personally have yet to drive an automatic that I would want to own. I enjoy driving manual and executing well controlled heel-toe downshifts from a sporting and enthusiast side, sure, but more than that I cannot stand the delay an automatic injects into the driving experience. I want the car to be in specific gears and shift when I expect / command it. I don't want to click a paddle, wait wait wait wait oh we're shifting now? nope wait wait oh there it went finally. Modern automatics are better, but some (looking at you, Chrysler 200 with the 9 speed), are utterly unforgivably horrendous. The lack of response and command immediacy is the issue with automatics, for me. Automated clutched DCTs and the like, I'm on board with, because they actually do what the driver requests when the driver requests, not when it feels like it.

 

Example, from the (new!) Chrysler 200 I mentioned above. Was starting to merge onto the highway, going ~30 mph. Floor it. I counted two full seconds of foot-on-floor before the transmission decided to kick down 5 gears (!!) and finally begin to actually accelerate. Two seconds in which I was staring in my mirrors hoping the transmission would wake up before I got flattened by the semi truck. Screw automatics, when foot hits floor downshift NOW. Give me three pedals any day over that pile of utter junk, I will not yield control.

 

None of that matters.  there are people who prefer salami to chorizo, they are both meat eaters. 

 

I have seen references to petrolheads as if that makes their opinion carry any weight, people claiming their "knowledge" is better because they can drive a manual.  I am not too sure how much more real people think somethings are. 

 

 

[Blademaster91]

3 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

 

Granted, I've said before and I will say again, in some countries, from a practical standpoint (due to the abundance of manuals), you really should know how to drive one.

 

North America isn't one of those places.

People in North America really should learn to drive a manual, because I see too many that can't put their phone down while driving, at least a manual transmission requires the driver to actually focus on driving.

[r2724r16]

4 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

People in North America really should learn to drive a manual

Even if they learn how to drive a manual, it doesn't mean they will actually buy a car with a manual transmission.

[PlayStation 2]

7 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

People in North America really should learn to drive a manual, because I see too many that can't put their phone down while driving, at least a manual transmission requires the driver to actually focus on driving.

Fucking tell me about it. I always get frustrated when my parents or my brother drives while using his phone because it scares the shit outta me. I see way too many idiots on the road swerving and getting into accidents because they can’t stop looking at their phone.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 hour ago, kokakolia said:

I dipped my toes into vinyl and it sucked the joy out of music. Here are my complaints: 

- Takes up more space

- Most turntables suck unless you buy something for $500 which I didn’t have obviously 

- You expect vinyl to sound better than CD but I struggle to hear the difference. 
- Records easily get scratched and damaged. 
- 1 vinyl is easily worth 3 months of Spotify 

- You have to flip the disc halfway through

I date back to wax (78 and 45 rpm). LPs were an improvement over the old 78s but were still plagued with pops and crackles and would wear, reducing quality. Also, the sound quality was not as great as people make it out to be. Reel to reel tapes were pretty good but never caught on. 8 tracks were no improvement because of the track changes, tape wear and stretching. Cassettes weren't much better; at least they didn't have track changes. They sounded great at first but went downhill fast.

 

Digital CDs were the best thing to happen to music. Music quality could be far superior (albeit not always) and be better than most downloads. Sadly, people are drifting either to downloads or back to the poorer quality of vinyl.

 

11 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Fucking tell me about it. I always get frustrated when my parents or my brother drives while using his phone because it scares the shit outta me. I see way too many idiots on the road swerving and getting into accidents because they can’t stop looking at their phone.

Everytime I see someone pull a boneheaded maneuver, they have a cell phone shoved up their ear of face (instead of where it needs to be shoved).

[Founders]

23 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

People in North America really should learn to drive a manual, because I see too many that can't put their phone down while driving, at least a manual transmission requires the driver to actually focus on driving.

I agree, it would force younger drivers to maintain their focus making it harder to get distracted. In most states teens aren't eligible for a full license until they are 18 or have had their license for 1 year, which ever comes first.

 

16 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Fucking tell me about it. I always get frustrated when my parents or my brother drives while using his phone because it scares the shit outta me. I see way too many idiots on the road swerving and getting into accidents because they can’t stop looking at their phone.

There's really no excuse for it either. People are putting themselves and others at an increased risk of injury or worse. FOR WHAT!? A text, social media, email, it can wait. 

[Drak3]

42 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I see too many that can't put their phone down while driving, at least a manual transmission requires the driver to actually focus on driving.

@Ehmc130

It's won't. The few seconds one spends fondling a stick in their car is not going to deter them from using their phone slightly. They'll use their knees on straight aways and just stuff the phone somewhere when they need to shift. Those on their phones while driving will use their phones while driving regardless of what tech is in the car.

[Yoinkerman]

I drive a manual because I think the car is cool.  Electric cars are also cool.  Automatic cars are cool too.

 

Anyone who thinks they're better because they learned how to move both their legs while driving needs to pick up another hobby because they obviously have too much free time.

[PlayStation 2]

4 minutes ago, Yoinkerman said:

I drive a manual because I think the car is cool.  Electric cars are also cool.  Automatic cars are cool too.

 

Anyone who thinks they're better because they learned how to move both their legs while driving needs to pick up another hobby because they obviously have too much free time.

I’ve always felt that a transmission doesn’t really make or break a car unless it’s truly terrible, like the Maserati Quattroporte and the 3rd gen Toyota MR-2’s sequential manuals. 

People like to bitch and moan about transmissions but frankly, unless that transmission absolutely blows in all regards, it’s not a big deal to me.

[SenKa]

I drove my old Miata recently. It was mine, then it was my moms, now she isn't driving it so it's up for sale. It was an automatic simply because she doesn't drive stick and my dad can't fit in it after his accident.

 

WOW was driving an auto weird again. Really did not enjoy it.

 

I will say I don't understand that "stop and go traffic arguement". I drive pretty deep in to downtown Bradenton, Florida. There is a traffic light every block or two and very heavy traffic, genuinely don't have an issue even with the heavy clutch and "drive it like you hate it" Aisin W59 5 speed in my '97 Tacoma.

[Founders]

37 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

@Ehmc130

It's won't. The few seconds one spends fondling a stick in their car is not going to deter them from using their phone slightly. They'll use their knees on straight aways and just stuff the phone somewhere when they need to shift. Those on their phones while driving will use their phones while driving regardless of what tech is in the car.

How much experience do you have driving a manual? You mentioned tech, auto manufactures are actively incorporating features to deter people from "fondling" (as you put it) their phones. Pair your phone via Bluetooth to your cars head unit and no "fondling" requires. A manual just adds a bit more of a determinant to young drivers who are still learning their fundamentals.  

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Ehmc130 said:

How much experience do you have driving a manual?

Some from years ago.

 

2 minutes ago, Ehmc130 said:

A manual just adds a bit more of a determinant to young drivers who are still learning their fundamentals.  

I've seen first hand why that will only work on paper.

[dalekphalm]

15 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

People in North America really should learn to drive a manual, because I see too many that can't put their phone down while driving, at least a manual transmission requires the driver to actually focus on driving.

That is the most stupid reason to learn to drive a manual that I've ever heard. You think someone who really wants to text and drive is going to stop just because they are in a manual? That's insane. I can and do see manual drivers still texting and driving, and that's even more dangerous.

 

No. People need to stop being jackasses and stop texting and driving because it's dangerous - end of story. That likely won't happen until enough of a social paradigm shift has happened (too many drivers think they are "good enough" at driving to text "safely" at the same time - I've even seen LTT forum members make that claim). Additionally, heavy police enforcement is required too.

 

On top of that, let's say it was mandatory for people in North America to learn to drive a stick shift. Okay. Fine. Would that magically change the fact that the vast majority of new and used cars sold today are automatics? No. Just because you learned to drive a manual doesn't mean you will drive one. And if they are driving an automatic anyway, it's irrelevant if they can drive stick - especially if they're still going to text and drive.

 

No. There is no legitimate reason why a North American must learn to drive manual.

[Zodiark1593]

Amusingly, though cars as a hobby tends to be attributed to Men, I see far more women driving stick than I see men. One old lady I saw at the store has a rather nice Miata with 6-speed manual. Another one (my friend's mom's friend) driver a 5.0 Mustang with a 6-speed manual as well. My dad's girlfriend drives a KIA with a 5-speed manual. And when I was buying my car, a lady was apparently taking a very close look at it before I snatched it up.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

All my female friends can drive sticks (of course, most of us are senior citzens).

[PlayStation 2]

5 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Amusingly, though cars as a hobby tends to be attributed to Men, I see far more women driving stick than I see men. One old lady I saw at the store has a rather nice Miata with 6-speed manual. Another one (my friend's mom's friend) driver a 5.0 Mustang with a 6-speed manual as well. My dad's girlfriend drives a KIA with a 5-speed manual. And when I was buying my car, a lady was apparently taking a very close look at it before I snatched it up.

I actually bet men don’t drive stick as much out of laziness more than anything. My dad can drive stick fairly competently but he’d rather not. He had a 90s Accord and a 1998 Tacoma that were stick that he never really drove because of it.

[Zando_]

Just now, handymanshandle said:

I actually bet men don’t drive stick as much out of laziness more than anything. My dad can drive stick fairly competently but he’d rather not. He had a 90s Accord and a 1998 Tacoma that were stick that he never really drove because of it.

I need to ask my dad what he thinks of manuals sometime. He used to daily his '88 Mustang (4 speed manual IIRC) till the fuel pump went out, if that hadn't happened I think he'd still drive it a lot. 

[amdorintel]

4 hours ago, Zando Bob said:

till the fuel pump went out

such an easy and cheap fix

 

 

 

all women can drive stick

5 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

All my female friends can drive sticks (of course, most of us are senior citzens).