Do you/can you drive a manual?

[Commodus]

12 minutes ago, masethekiller said:

Lol Toyota Corolla in 2018 sold more cars alone than all of Tesla, that is one single car sold more than the whole brand.  Electric sales make up about 1 percent of car sales.  Also Telsa except for two quarters has never made a profit, the only reason the company has not gone bankrupt is because of government subsidies. 

 

Electric cars are not rational, maybe some countries in Europe will have them be mandated and forced upon drivers but otherwise  the facts and practicality of electric cars don't pan out. Consumers of their own free will don't want electric cars.  In asia, america, south america, the rest of the world except Europe, gasoline cars will continue to be the norm.  

 

The whole electric car thing and global warming hysteria has taken on a group/herd mentality.  Some people think electric cars are going to magically save the planet. 

First, please learn to use the quote feature on the forum.  People shouldn't have to guess whether or not you've replied to their posts.

 

As for the subject at hand, let me be explicit: you genuinely don't know what you're talking about.  You're making demonstrably false, easily debunked claims and unsupported assumptions.  Tesla has been profitable for three consecutive quarters this year, and has been profitable in multiple quarters before that.  Government incentives have helped make Tesla's prices more palpable early on, but remember that the incentive has been cut dramatically in 2019 -- it was down to $1,875 by July.  Tesla's sales were improving even as incentives went down, and price adjustments didn't fully counter that.

 

Also, no shit the Corolla sold more than Tesla in 2018, it's a long-serving, iconic model that starts at less than $20K.  I didn't say that Tesla was dominating the market, just that there is evidence of strong demand and that the Model 3 is clearly leading sales in its price class.  There's also no question that Tesla will sell many more EVs in 2019, and that's before the Model Y and pickup truck arrive.

 

Electric cars are perfectly rational.  On the whole, they're less expensive to run (charging costs much less than gas) and maintain (far fewer moving parts).  You can top up at home, in parking garages, and other places where gas stations aren't an option.  And yes, they're overall more helpful to the environment, even in some areas where coal and other dirty power sources are still common.  That's not including immediate benefits like cleaner city air and reduced noise.  People do want EVs of their own free will, they just want the price to come down and the range to go up; both are happening. 

 

EVs won't automatically save the planet, and I agree that some parts of the world will be slower to adopt them (though you've clearly forgotten about China's big EV push).  But they are overall beneficial, and they're practically necessary if we're going to move toward self-driving cars.  And what's frustrating is that you're being very myopic, only looking at static figures from the past; you're purposefully ignoring trends, publicly stated plans from major automakers and other contextual data that shows where the industry is going.  The industry as it is now is not a reflection of how it will always be.

 

To get this back on track: I look forward to hearing about your experiences driving without manual transmission when you get an EV in the years ahead.

[3 Lions]

28 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Bolt

I don't think I've ever seen a car so devoid of style before. This car is certainly for people who don't want to be excited, like most modern VW's and Ford's. 

[Yebi]

20 minutes ago, LinusTechTipsFanFromDarlo said:

I don't think I've ever seen a car so devoid of style before. This car is certainly for people who don't want to be excited, like most modern VW's and Ford's. 

Or, you know, for people who don't have the same exact taste as you do

 

Jeez, what is it with car folks and fashion policing?

[PlayStation 2]

19 minutes ago, Yebi said:

Or, you know, for people who don't have the same exact taste as you do

 

Jeez, what is it with car folks and fashion policing?

People can’t accept that people have different tastes. My taste in cars is very wide and very bizarre, but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate one’s taste in cars even if it’s not mine.

[Ithanul]

3 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

You haven't lived until you shift five on the tree.

Holy moly, bet that is interesting.  Most I done is four on tree.  Was not aware there was even a five on tree.

 

4 hours ago, handymanshandle said:

You can still baby the fuck out of a 6-speed automatic (not to mention anything with more gears) to the point of getting manual fuel economy. Mom's got a 2017 SS with the auto and she really is into manual SS territory with fuel economy (which really isn't all that high, ~17 average, largely consisting of city driving) but still.

What year is your Civic? Because if we're talking, say, a 1994 Civic with a 5-speed manual, it had better be getting 40mpg, but if it's something newer, it'd give some more context against the CVTs that Honda puts into the modern Civics.

Yep.  I can on average get 22-25mpg out of my automatic V6 Tacoma SR5 in a city.  Highway I can average around 26-28mpg.  Now if I baby the crap out of it.  I got as high as 30mpg on highway with that truck.  My fav thing is when I get to drive my Mom's automatic Optima.  Highest I got out of it is 40mpg on highway.  Of course, my nutty self manage to get 70mpg out of a LS650 Suzuki Motorcycle.  Though, I put that more on the fact that I don't weigh enough to bother the motorcycle.

[masethekiller]

Lol exactly you admit that one single car , a toyota corolla outsold an entire electric car company.  Yet that person wants to claim that electric cars are the 'future' and inevitable and did you see the model 3 outsold every other car in their class,etc.  lol. 

 

Electric cars have no future unless they are mandated  and it's not rational to spend far more money on a car that  is less and doesn't' really have better environment impact either. It depends where you live, but the fact is over 70 percent of electricity is produced by fossil fuels, so your 'clean' electric  is actually polluting and possibly more than a gasoline car. I don't know if there are any studies if a say a honda civic which is a low emissions vehicle versus a Tesla powered by coal generated electricity.  I would guess the gas powered electric car is cleaner.  Also battery production and disposal of electric cars present serious environmental concerns.  Does a tesla cost less to own?  That is questionable too.  For one it depends on how your cost of electricity which great varies through out the united states, does a tesla 3 cost less to operate than a honda civic or corolla that gets 40 MPG and if so how much/  If it does, is it cheaper over the life-time with that 15-20k premium?  Part of the premium is paying for the batteries.  So maybe you could pay less per the equivalent tank but at a substantial overall higher cost of buying the car. 

 

It's not rational because your paying a substantial premium for a car that even then with a 7,000 dollar tax credit is still 15-20k over a similar car except it is faster, isn't practical, requires that you charge overnight for hours at a time on a charge which less in the whole range than a typical car that has over 300 miles to a tank and has a limited range in terms of long distance travel, yes there are electric charging stations but those are limited, particularly compared to gas stations. Virtually anywhere in the united states there are gas stations, you will probably only find tesla charging stations along interstates and major cities.  Add that on top of questionable environmental benefits of an electric car. 

 

Why is it rational to spend more for less?  Electric cars are largely being pushed by irrational and highly emotional people who are in hysteria over global warming and the environment. 

[Roswell]

7 minutes ago, masethekiller said:

Why is it rational to spend more for less?  Electric cars are largely being pushed by irrational and highly emotional people who are in hysteria over global warming and the environment. 

You're conflating "irrational and highly emotional people" with climate change. Climate change is real, the entirety of the scientific community agrees on the subject. It's objective fact, not the result of an emotional response.

[The1Dickens]

10 minutes ago, masethekiller said:

Electric cars have no future unless they are mandated

I disagree with this. Densely populated areas like Los Angeles and New York would see a noticeable difference in air quality with the switch to electric vehicles. How that electricity is produced is another issue altogether, but there are plenty of environmentally friendly ways to produce electricity. Many people also don't care about the box they sit in for 2 hours a day, and just want to get to and from work consistently, and to and from the store consistently.

 

As for the note about infrastructure, that can be solved with time in the same way that the fuel stations infrastructure was solved. Internal-combustion engines didn't become a thing because fuel stations were dotted across the land.

 

On the note of "paying a premium", that's the case with all new technology. Nearly every technological advancement in any automobile today was exclusive to auto-racing, before going into high-end cars, and then low-end cars. ABS, direct injection, variable valve timing, electronic throttle bodies, disc brakes, variable speed electronic steering, forced induction, unibody chassis, manufacturing materials, etc.. The same holds true for any industry.

[3 Lions]

1 hour ago, Yebi said:

Or, you know, for people who don't have the same exact taste as you do

 

Jeez, what is it with car folks and fashion policing?

No I fully understand that people have different tastes. Sure the Bolt isn't my sort of car but doesn't mean it's 'crap' car. 

 

[LauriHimself]

where i live (austria) you ususally learnd to drive in cars with manual transmission.

you can choose to do so in an automatic car, but you will be banned from driving manual then.

if you learn to drive in a manual you may aswell drive an automatic when you get your license

[Zodiark1593]

4 hours ago, masethekiller said:

 

 

Electric cars have no future unless they are mandated  and it's not rational to spend far more money on a car that  is less and doesn't' really have better environment impact either. It depends where you live, but the fact is over 70 percent of electricity is produced by fossil fuels, so your 'clean' electric  is actually polluting and possibly more than a gasoline car. I don't know if there are any studies if a say a honda civic which is a low emissions vehicle versus a Tesla powered by coal generated electricity.  I would guess the gas powered electric car is cleaner.  Also battery production and disposal of electric cars present serious environmental concerns.  Does a tesla cost less to own?  That is questionable too.  For one it depends on how your cost of electricity which great varies through out the united states, does a tesla 3 cost less to operate than a honda civic or corolla that gets 40 MPG and if so how much/  If it does, is it cheaper over the life-time with that 15-20k premium?  Part of the premium is paying for the batteries.  So maybe you could pay less per the equivalent tank but at a substantial overall higher cost of buying the car. 

 

I

Assumming the price is right and battery tech is better, I'd definitely really like EV for the much reduced maintainance. In theory, electric powertrains are extremely simple, requiring only cooling for the regular (seldom) fluid change. The ball bearings are the only point of friction within DC brushless motors. Also, find me a transmission more reliable than a single-speed gearbox.  I'd imagine there's also probably some sort of slipper clutch in the drivetrain to provide an artificial weak point to protect the rest of the drivetrain as the brushless motors pack enough torque to destroy stuff.

 

Tire wear is probably a bigger issue in EVs due to the (sometimes very) high torque and additional weight from the battery. 

[PlayStation 2]

9 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Tire wear is probably a bigger issue in EVs due to the (sometimes very) high torque and additional weight from the battery. 

I wonder if that's an issue for most drivers in practice. Yeah, they've got more torque, especially instant torque, but I doubt most drivers of an electric vehicle are flooring it from a stop unless they wanna have fun.

[Zodiark1593]

5 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

I wonder if that's an issue for most drivers in practice. Yeah, they've got more torque, especially instant torque, but I doubt most drivers of an electric vehicle are flooring it from a stop unless they wanna have fun.

Probably not the fun aspect, so much as many drivers lean toward aggression and tend to rush. I see it pretty commonly on roads with a lot of stop lights. Drivers often step pretty far in the gas, only to have to stop again a short bit later.

[ARikozuM]

4 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Probably not the fun aspect, so much as many drivers lean toward aggression and tend to rush. I see it pretty commonly on roads with a lot of stop lights. Drivers often step pretty far in the gas, only to have to stop again a short bit later.

The lights in my neck of the woods are very well done. If you do the speed limit, you're very unlikely to ever stop at a red. Unfortunately, everyone tries to go 10 over leaving them stopped at the light instead of flowing freely. 

[M_Callahan]

All the cars I have own since 1974 have been standard transmission until 2007 I bought a new Hyundai Santa Fe.  I still own it and is my first car with automatic transmission.  Back when I started driving most of the car I could afford had standard transmission in them and they were all older used cars from the 50s and 60s.  Car with automatic transmission cost more money back then.  

[captain_to_fire]

It doesn't matter if what you drive is a manual or automatic, remember that the best hand signal when driving is the middle finger. 

 

Nothing else comes close

[Zodiark1593]

17 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

The lights in my neck of the woods are very well done. If you do the speed limit, you're very unlikely to ever stop at a red. Unfortunately, everyone tries to go 10 over leaving them stopped at the light instead of flowing freely. 

Over by my work, the many lights on the street prioritize traffic coming from the nearby companies, and the lights are very aggressive in this regard. Even in the presense of heavy traffic on the main roads, a singular car from the side road will almost instantly trigger the light to turn. Best to back off the gas as soon as you see a car coming from the side road.

 

A town I pass through during my commute has some odd light behavior. During very early mornings (4:00-5:00), the lights use sensors to trigger the signals, and those turning on the freeway needn't wait long. During rush hour hosever, the lights use a dumb timer that tends to allow people to sit in the turn lane for minutes, even if no other traffic was passing through.

[kaiju_wars]

I can, my buddy actually taught me how in his old Mustang.  Now, I'm not great at driving manual, but if need be I can do it.

 

My Jeep is an automatic, one of those ones you can push over to the side and shift gears manually, but when you shift that way, it uses an electronic clutch so you don't have to press on the clutch to shift.  Not exactly the same, by any means, but I do like have the option.

[Anomnomnomaly]

In my opinion, if you can't drive a manual... you can't drive properly at all. In the UK if you pass your driving test on an automatic car, you are banned from driving a manual at all unless you retake your test using a manual car.

 

As far as I am aware, this isn't a requirement in the US... Hence my personal opinion that you can't drive properly and shouldn't ever be allowed behind the wheel of a manual car.

 

 

[Zodiark1593]

7 hours ago, Anomnomnomaly said:

In my opinion, if you can't drive a manual... you can't drive properly at all. In the UK if you pass your driving test on an automatic car, you are banned from driving a manual at all unless you retake your test using a manual car.

 

As far as I am aware, this isn't a requirement in the US... Hence my personal opinion that you can't drive properly and shouldn't ever be allowed behind the wheel of a manual car.

 

 

I don't think Manual transmissions are difficult enough to warrant barring drivers from using them if they tested in an Automatic. Those that actually want to drive stick will achive competency quite quickly with minimal help. Those that don't care to drive stick have plenty of Automatics to choose from for the foreseeable future anyway.

[PlayStation 2]

2 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

I don't think Manual transmissions are difficult enough to warrant barring drivers from using them if they tested in an Automatic. Those that actually want to drive stick will achive competency quite quickly with minimal help. Those that don't care to drive stick have plenty of Automatics to choose from for the foreseeable future anyway.

Not to mention, drivers are pretty terrible to begin with where most of us live. Nowadays, throwing in another thing to pay attention to would mean nothing more than repair bills. Hell, that was the case even with the dual-clutches the Ford Focuses came with here, so eh.

[Founders]

7 hours ago, Anomnomnomaly said:

In my opinion, if you can't drive a manual... you can't drive properly at all. In the UK if you pass your driving test on an automatic car, you are banned from driving a manual at all unless you retake your test using a manual car.

 

As far as I am aware, this isn't a requirement in the US... Hence my personal opinion that you can't drive properly and shouldn't ever be allowed behind the wheel of a manual car.

 

 

How is that ban enforced, is there a note on your drivers license? Here in the US there’s no specific test to drive a manual. If you pass your road test in an automatic you’re free to drive either option.

[kokakolia]

I left Canada to work in Paris because of this awful oil recession in Alberta which put me on the dole for months despite being hired full time. I got hired in Paris immediately because there’s a massive demand for construction related jobs due to the Paris train overhaul. Anyways, all is well. But I didn’t expect to drive a manual car 3~4 hours/day at an average speed of 10 kph. I want to smash, destroy every single person who advocates for manual transmissions. It’s just awful having to drive at speeds between the 1st and 2nd gear all day long while meddling with the clutch. And my poor Peugeot 208 is quite bity with the first gear. And honestly, trafic would move so much better if we took out every single manual car on the road. They’re just that much harder to start from a full stop, especially on hills. To illustrate my point: a typical green light in Alberta would allow at least a dozen cars through. In France you’re lucky if you see 5. 
 

tl;dr I wanna smash every single manual car in existence. They suck. They really do. If you don’t believe me drive a manual car in Paris daily. 

[Ithanul]

12 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Assuming the price is right and battery tech is better, I'd definitely really like EV for the much reduced maintenance. In theory, electric powertrains are extremely simple, requiring only cooling for the regular (seldom) fluid change. The ball bearings are the only point of friction within DC brushless motors. Also, find me a transmission more reliable than a single-speed gearbox.  I'd imagine there's also probably some sort of slipper clutch in the drivetrain to provide an artificial weak point to protect the rest of the drivetrain as the brushless motors pack enough torque to destroy stuff.

 

Tire wear is probably a bigger issue in EVs due to the (sometimes very) high torque and additional weight from the battery. 

One of the reason that my next vehicle will be EV.  Plus, once I get a house with solar panels and the like, I view it more as the ability to be a tad more independent as well. 

[Anomnomnomaly]

7 hours ago, Ehmc130 said:

How is that ban enforced, is there a note on your drivers license? Here in the US there’s no specific test to drive a manual. If you pass your road test in an automatic you’re free to drive either option.

Basically your license will specify that you can only drive an automatic. It will also list if you are allowed to drive/ride a motorbike, HGV and PSV (Heavy Goods Vehicle & Public Service Vehicle), and you need to take special tests for anything over  3.5 tonnes, or that carries more than 18 passengers.

 

With motorbikes, you can apply for your license, and you have 2yrs to take and pass your motorbike test, or you have to apply again. You are limited to 50cc and under if under 17 and 125cc if over 17 (You can ride a bike at 16, but cars at 17).