Cloudflare terminate 8Chan

[msknight]

Just now, mr moose said:

We have consumer rights.  Some countries are better than others I'll grant, but we do have them.  What particular right have you been denied today?

I'm talking about when corporates decide to terminate your account and not even tell you why.

[RejZoR]

Funny, I don't remember anyone ever terminating Facebook or Twitter hosting or domains after mass shooters posted shit on their websites...

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, msknight said:

I'm talking about when corporates decide to terminate your account and not even tell you why.

 

Then take them to consumer affairs. Demand your money back.  This still doesn't give you the right to demand a company in another company maintain a service with an entity they don't wish to do business with.

 

EDItED to add qualifier.

[Taf the Ghost]

36 minutes ago, Derangel said:

Should we also ban Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, etc because they have also influenced mass killers and non-mass killers? People have used Facebook to livestream murders and other crimes.

I'm fully down with banning most Social Media on the grounds they foster mass-scale destruction & dysfunction in societies. 

 

(While I say that a bit tongue-in-cheek, all I'm really doing is being about 20 years ahead of the political positions of a lot of people. By the end of the century, what we view as "social media" will likely be banned across most of the planet. It's pretty rapidly following the trend that Cocaine did, where the Elites & Wealthy loved the hell out of the stuff for about a decade before they caught on to the fact it was ruining everyone. That's when the whole War of Drugs kicked into another gear. You've already seen the youngest set move to very limited interaction-based social media platforms. Expect that to continue even more in the future. This is why the Data Collection pushes have increased so much lately. Societies are starting to adapt to the massive mistake.)

[msknight]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Then take them to consumer affairs. Demand your money back.  This still doesn't give you the right to demand a company in another company maintain a service with an entity they don't wish to do business with.

 

EDItED to add qualifier.

Funny you should mention that...

[mr moose]

Just now, msknight said:

Funny you should mention that...

mention what?

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, msknight said:

I'm talking about when corporates decide to terminate your account and not even tell you why.

Cloudflare explained their position very well and addressed basically all points raised, probably even ones not yet raised here. 8Chan doesn't become unable to be a website because Cloudflare cancelled their contract with them, Cloudflare isn't a requirement for having a website and there are even other competing services they can subscribe to if they don't want to have direct or unfiltered access to their web servers, because obviously such a site is a giant target for denial of service attacks.

 

With such a well articulated announcement by Cloudflare using it as a spring board for other much less related issues like you've pointed to just don't fit well with what has actually transpired.

 

The internet isn't problem free, but what in life isn't.

[msknight]

Just now, mr moose said:

mention what?

You've forgotten what you've written yourself, so you are obviously not really engaged with this conversation.

[leadeater]

Just now, msknight said:

You've forgotten what you've written yourself, so you are obviously not really engaged with this conversation.

Contractual agreements between business doesn't fall under consumer protection laws. You are a consumer, 8Chan is a business.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, msknight said:

You've forgotten what you've written yourself, so you are obviously not really engaged with this conversation.

Your post makes no sense,  Do you perhaps think that 8ch and cloudflare have a consumer type relationship or that cloudflare are somehow morally/ethiically bound to ensure you have access to any specific website?

[Taf the Ghost]

19 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Funny, I don't remember anyone ever terminating Facebook or Twitter hosting or domains after mass shooters posted shit on their websites...

Because they're useful for other means to Authorities. But look what happens when companies don't act like "good little boys" for their superiors. They get made a mockery in public. Funny, that.

 

On the topic in general, a few important points. Any "open" space on the Internet gets hit by "crap flooding". The point is to break the systems in use for moderation. The point is so government agencies (whether security or intelligence) can see the utility of the platform. It's an analogue of the "every 14 year old on the internet is a Fed". They've pulled this stunt with every social media website for some attacker posting on it. Given the way murder-suicides work, those that'll do the attacks will post somewhere. (In the old days, they sent them to Newspapers.) 

 

So, this is version, what, 15 of this same media story in the last decade? But it works to avoid any of the issues that cause these events to happen.

 

(Oh yeah, as a note, a Japanese man killed 35 people with some gasoline the other week because he thought the company stole his idea. Where there is derangement, there is a way, unfortunately.)

[matrix07012]

We did it boys. Mass shootings are no more. 

 

It's purely a PR stunt. 

 

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Because they're useful for other means to Authorities. But look what happens when companies don't act like "good little boys" for their superiors. They get made a mockery in public. Funny, that.

 

On the topic in general, a few important points. Any "open" space on the Internet gets hit by "crap flooding". The point is to break the systems in use for moderation. The point is so government agencies (whether security or intelligence) can see the utility of the platform. It's an analogue of the "every 14 year old on the internet is a Fed". They've pulled this stunt with every social media website for some attacker posting on it. Given the way murder-suicides work, those that'll do the attacks will post somewhere. (In the old days, they sent them to Newspapers.) 

 

So, this is version, what, 15 of this same media story in the last decade? But it works to avoid any of the issues that cause these events to happen.

 

(Oh yeah, as a note, a Japanese man killed 35 people with some gasoline the other week because he thought the company stole his idea. Where there is derangement, there is a way, unfortunately.)

Sometimes its as simple as companies not wanting to be associated with certain things for PR reasons.   It's simply the flipside of the PR scale to virtue signalling.

 

In this case however it seems a little more technical than moral.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, matrix07012 said:

We did it boys. Mass shootings are no more. 

Mission Accomplished?

[Mihle]

3 hours ago, Monkey Dust said:

Getting rid of 4 & 8 Chan isn't a cure, but chasing them off so their replacements are harder to find mean fewer young men get suck in by them it's still progress.

 

I'm not sure mental health is the problem, these people aren't claiming an imaginary entity told them to to it. It's more like being part of a cult.

 

My theory is the root of the problem is the lack of good, secure, jobs, and in places with good jobs, a lack of affordable housing. Many towns and small cities in countries across the western world have seen their employment opportunities decimated, especially those that relied on one or maybe two big industrial employers. In large cities there are jobs, but not all of them are secure and the pay can fall short of what is necessary to live in these cities, especially as house price & rent inflation have greatly outrun wage inflation. The traditional path through life of get job, buy house and have comfortable life probably with a family, has been shut off to many leaving many angry, disillusioned people ripe for recruitment into extreme ideologies, whether that is far right, far left or Islamic extremism.          

Don't know about this case, but If you look in to general shootings where some try to just shoot random people, where the person at least is quite young. I bet you will find that more % of them than the rest of society in general, was/is a bully victim.

 

There is no single cause, other than a lot of them not being happy because something with their life situation. Even that might not always be the case, just often.

 

There is no single thing that can make it never happen.

[Taf the Ghost]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Sometimes its as simple as companies not wanting to be associated with certain things for PR reasons.   It's simply the flipside of the PR scale to virtue signalling.

 

In this case however it seems a little more technical than moral.

Uncommented is that it's a little annoying companies like CloudFlare need to exist because DDoS is so easy. CloudFlare, as a company, is making the decisions that keep their lights on, which is always not pissing of Western governments. It's been decided 8chan is at fault for this one, so it's simply about dumping 8chan from major platforms. 

 

It's the business side of protection rackets, even if it's "legal". 

[realpetertdm]

5 hours ago, poochyena said:

Yes my cherrypicked example is totally representative of an internet forum known to harbor alt-right racists

[realpetertdm]

1 hour ago, msknight said:

I'm talking about when corporates decide to terminate your account and not even tell you why.

They're completely within their rights to do that unless stated otherwise in their TOS. Sorry mate.

[cj09beira]

6 hours ago, BigDamn said:

I'm not big on censorship but I think this is the right move. Many people on these message boards are sick and get their motivation to kill from other users there. These killers need someone to impress and their fellow 8chan, 4chan, etc. peers are the only ones they can. Obviously this won't eliminate 8chan from the internet, but I like the stance Cloudflare is taking.

as long as there are alternatives a company not wanting to work with you is fine, if its a monopoly its another story, 

5 hours ago, Monkey Dust said:

Getting rid of 4 & 8 Chan isn't a cure, but chasing them off so their replacements are harder to find mean fewer young men get suck in by them it's still progress.

 

I'm not sure mental health is the problem, these people aren't claiming an imaginary entity told them to to it. It's more like being part of a cult.

 

My theory is the root of the problem is the lack of good, secure, jobs, and in places with good jobs, a lack of affordable housing. Many towns and small cities in countries across the western world have seen their employment opportunities decimated, especially those that relied on one or maybe two big industrial employers. In large cities there are jobs, but not all of them are secure and the pay can fall short of what is necessary to live in these cities, especially as house price & rent inflation have greatly outrun wage inflation. The traditional path through life of get job, buy house and have comfortable life probably with a family, has been shut off to many leaving many angry, disillusioned people ripe for recruitment into extreme ideologies, whether that is far right, far left or Islamic extremism.          

problem is the smaller this type of site is the more extreme it becomes, the best thing would be for them to stay on the bigger sites so that more people would argue against them, instead of them staying on their little echo chamber and if they start to increase in numbers then we probably have a problem which needs fixing as a society (we probably do considering male suicide on record highs (outside of war time), imo its mostly lack of purpose)

5 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

The El Paso shooter was influenced by (expressed support for) the Christchurch, New Zealand shooter, who showed signs of being influenced by (used the same symbols as them) the Ukrainian neo-Nazi militia Azov Battalion, which have been funded by the US government (to fight pro-Russia East Ukraine separatists) and which also have been training US white supremacist groups. Reminds me of funding Al Qaeda and 9/11 happening. Reminds me of a half-dozen other such examples, too.

 

Also, the FBI was recently exposed posting on 8chan to incite violence from extremists: https://ceinquiry.wordpress.com/2019/06/17/fbi-8chan/

he claimed that he was mostly radicalized by what he saw when he went to europe (during the migrant crisis), not much people could do about that

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

It's not censorship when a company doesn't want to work with any group for whatever reason. 

 

 

depends, if that company has a monopoly you could argue it is, (though not saying it applies here)

[PopReference]

Technical note on OP needs a direct quote from the article. I'd suggest from this: 

"We need to have a conversation about hate..." 
>Kicks you out because they don't like you

[Video Beagle]

FWIW, 8chan is back up already.

[NunoLava1998]

1 hour ago, realpetertdm said:

Yes my cherrypicked example is totally representative of an internet forum known to harbor alt-right racists

I browse 4chan's /g/ (technology) and /biz/ (business & finance) boards.

You're describing /pol/ (politics/politically incorrect). Every single board except /b/ (random) hates /pol/ and in fact you can find a lot of actual good discussion in 4chan outside of that trash (and a lot of shitposting too)

 

 

although it IS cherrypicked lol

[rcmaehl]

2 hours ago, matrix07012 said:

It's purely a PR stunt. 

You're absolutely correct. 24 hours ago Cloudflare CEO himself said removing 8chan from their service was NOT GOING TO FIX ANYTHING and was a BAD IDEA. Regardless, more and more media pointed at cloudflare and at some time or another there's going to be enough external (and internal) pressure that SOMETHING has to break. 

[Sauron]

7 hours ago, Tantabus said:

I've been reading a lot of the same opinion, the whole "Get rid of 4chan/8chan, and the issue is solved!".

I don't think anyone is saying that the *chans are the ONLY ISSUE in society. They are, however, an issue and if a private corporation doesn't want to host them anymore it's their right to do so. It's not like these people are losing access to the internet, which I would agree is an essential service like water.

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

You know what we call it when you force a company to provide services against their will?   communism

Not really, communism itself only says that the government (or more broadly whatever form of administration is decided upon by the people) should provide everyone with what is necessary to live respectably. In societies like the soviet union that was taken further (plus there was a dictatorship which isn't really what you would want in a society that is supposed to have no classes and no hierarchies) but communism isn't inherently against the existence of companies offering or refusing to offer services under certain conditions.

3 hours ago, msknight said:

You know what we call it when a company is forced to be held accountable for its actions?  Consumer rights.

They are accountable for their actions but in this case their actions aren't illegal nor particularly objectionable in my opinion.

4 hours ago, Derangel said:

Should we also ban Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, etc because they have also influenced mass killers and non-mass killers?

Arguably, though, unlike 8chan, youtube etc. have made some effort to moderate themselves.

[Sauron]

3 hours ago, matrix07012 said:

We did it boys. Mass shootings are no more. 

 

It's purely a PR stunt. 

 

"Lolicon defense task force" calling websites out for CP. That's rich.