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Cloudflare terminate 8Chan

msknight
By msknight
in Tech News
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Posted
1 hour ago, Commodus said:

Wouldn't helping mental health include a refusal to support sites that indulge people with psychotic thoughts and paranoia, like 8chan?

 

And the solution really has to be holistic.  Mental health helps, but you also need to fight racism, improve economic opportunities and, yes, implement more sensible gun control to limit both the temptations for and damage from mass murders.  The US has a chance to fix some of that with its next election.

Banning a site like 8chan doesn't help someone with mental health issues. If there was definitive proof 8chan was taking normal people and turning them into psychopaths then I would agree. But someone with a mental illness isn't magically cured by taking things away that could hurt them. Say someone is suicidal so you take their knife away as to not allow self harm. Well they are still suicidal at the end of the day and they will search for a new sharp object. Racism is byproduct of lack of education as well. As for economic opportunities, yeah that's gonna take a lot of change in the government that I sadly don't see happening anytime soon 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
17 hours ago, Commodus said:

Oh, I know, but private companies aren't obligated to host material just because it's technically legal.

 

And just because a replacement for 8chan might pop up doesn't mean you shouldn't let them sit around.  These sites not only fuel crimes, they recruit people who otherwise might not have fallen that far into hatred and violence.  We should make these sites feel unwelcome at all times, everywhere, forever.

You aren't saying anything I don't already agree with. Private companies can do whatever they like, it's their platform. I just don't want the government getting involved and setting rules and laws on what people can and can't say, that's when things can easily get out of control. 

 

I'm not saying let them sit around, I applaud cloudflare for removing them. But it's just they way of the world, those kinds of people will find a way. That's why we should be focusing on the metal health of these people and how they are educated to view the world, not blaming other things that have been proven to not be a cause of violence.

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16 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Banning a site like 8chan doesn't help someone with mental health issues. 

Not just that, but is it a good idea to censor radical ideas and push them even more underground where they can't be challenged or debunked? It basically creates an echo chamber that radicalizes people with already radical views.

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14 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Not just that, but is it a good idea to censor radical ideas and push them even more underground where they can't be challenged or debunked? It basically creates an echo chamber that radicalizes people with already radical views.

^^^^ 

Yeah people should take ethics classes as you'll learn censorship is the absolute worst way to solve a problem

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
3 hours ago, Commodus said:

I'm just happy that 8chan is being silenced; it dropped any pretense of being a haven for free speech years ago, when it knowingly tolerated child porn.

Censorship of any person, no matter how wrong their rhetoric, is wrong. We should be allowed to talk them out of their thinking. We should monitor them for possible action. 

 

There's only so much a moderation team can do. Look at LTT, there are definitely spam threads that get left up for hours before action is taken and 8chan is supposedly much bigger than LTT. 

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13 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

Censorship of any person, no matter how wrong their rhetoric, is wrong. We should be allowed to talk them out of their thinking. We should monitor them for possible action. 

 

There's only so much a moderation team can do. Look at LTT, there are definitely spam threads that get left up for hours before action is taken and 8chan is supposedly much bigger than LTT. 

Censorship by the government, I entirely agree with, is bad.

 

However, a private company (and yes, that includes "Public Corporations") can do whatever they want, as long as it's not breaking any laws. And in this case, should a company like Cloudflare decide they no longer wish to do business with 8chan? So be it. That's their legal right.

 

I wouldn't shed a tear if 8chan (and sites like it) disappeared because enough people didn't want to do business with them, but the reality is that they'll find some corner to survive in, if there's enough support.

 

Edit: And from my experience, trying to talk most of the people like that out of their thinking simply doesn't work.

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13 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Censorship by the government, I entirely agree with, is bad.

 

However, a private company (and yes, that includes "Public Corporations") can do whatever they want, as long as it's not breaking any laws. And in this case, should a company like Cloudflare decide they no longer wish to do business with 8chan? So be it. That's their legal right.

 

I wouldn't shed a tear if 8chan (and sites like it) disappeared because enough people didn't want to do business with them, but the reality is that they'll find some corner to survive in, if there's enough support.

 

Edit: And from my experience, trying to talk most of the people like that out of their thinking simply doesn't work.

The issue is that forcing them to hide, or making them the victims they believe they are, emboldens them when we could have simply started monitoring them. Forcing them deeper into hiding does not protect the populace. 

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11 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

The issue is that forcing them to hide, or making them the victims they believe they are, emboldens them when we could have simply started monitoring them. Forcing them deeper into hiding does not protect the populace. 

Whether or not dropping 8chan will actually have an affect on their users is debatable but that's not Cloudflare's problem.  By dropping 8chan they can wipe their hands clean of it and avoid future PR nightmares should we see more radical violence in the future.

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32 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

Censorship of any person, no matter how wrong their rhetoric, is wrong. We should be allowed to talk them out of their thinking. We should monitor them for possible action. 

 

There's only so much a moderation team can do. Look at LTT, there are definitely spam threads that get left up for hours before action is taken and 8chan is supposedly much bigger than LTT. 

I'm sorry, but that's an incredibly naive view.

 

8chan was not a venue where you could talk people "out of their thinking."  It was a bubble that let racists and pedophiles fuel each other without having to interact with mainstream society.  And when those hatemongers were allowed on sites like Twitter, did they interact in rational discussions?  No, they either stuck to themselves or used these sites as platforms for harassment and threats.  I like the thought of them 'seeing the light' through rational online debates, but that's not how it works in real life.  You don't have to give them an obvious public venue to monitor them, either.

 

And please don't give 8chan's non-moderation a pass.  As was pointed out earlier, there were examples of illegal content that persisted for years without action.  That's not a mistake.  8chan's motto wasn't so much "as long as it isn't illegal" as it was "as long as we don't get caught."

 

I'm not arguing for government intervention on 8chan.  I do, however, believe that companies can and should disassociate themselves from sites that routinely endorse hate crimes and pedophilia.

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4 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Censorship by the government, I entirely agree with, is bad.

 

However, a private company (and yes, that includes "Public Corporations") can do whatever they want, as long as it's not breaking any laws. And in this case, should a company like Cloudflare decide they no longer wish to do business with 8chan? So be it. That's their legal right.

 

I wouldn't shed a tear if 8chan (and sites like it) disappeared because enough people didn't want to do business with them, but the reality is that they'll find some corner to survive in, if there's enough support.

 

Edit: And from my experience, trying to talk most of the people like that out of their thinking simply doesn't work.

I think the point that is trying to be made is that we have come to a point where it is not just socially acceptable but socially encouraged to hate whatever the mob tells us. 75 years later you can basically label anyone particularly anyone German a Nazi  and nobody cares. Never been to 8chan and never heard of it. Heard of 4chan and heard it was a cesspool. Apparently it is puppies and kittens compared to 8chan so don't care. However if Cloudflare had terminated hosting for say all of the US democratic party because of there stance on illegal immigration. Do you think people would rush to there defence and say there a private company they can do as they wish or do you thing there would be riot police and teargas and pepper spray blowing in the air outside Cludflare HQ    

This might not be the best battle to fight but it is part of a larger war. A war where people are told it is ok to blindly hate because the mob tells them so.  

     

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19 minutes ago, JohnMc45 said:

I think the point that is trying to be made is that we have come to a point where it is not just socially acceptable but socially encouraged to hate whatever the mob tells us.

I disagree with that notion. And even if it were true, it wouldn't be any different from just about any point in history.

19 minutes ago, JohnMc45 said:

75 years later you can basically label anyone particularly anyone German a Nazi  and nobody cares.

I highly take exception to this claim. I know German people and I've never once heard of them being called a Nazi. It's common for people of the extreme right (or "Alt-Right") to be accused of being a Nazi, this is true.

 

And there's an incredibly small subset of society that calls anyone vaguely right-wing Nazi's - just like there's an incredibly small subset of society that labels anyone vaguely socialist as "communists".

19 minutes ago, JohnMc45 said:

Never been to 8chan and never heard of it. Heard of 4chan and heard it was a cesspool. Apparently it is puppies and kittens compared to 8chan so don't care. However if Cloudflare had terminated hosting for say all of the US democratic party because of there stance on illegal immigration. Do you think people would rush to there defence and say there a private company they can do as they wish or do you thing there would be riot police and teargas and pepper spray blowing in the air outside Cludflare HQ

Certainly, you're 100% correct that there would be a different reaction to CloudFlare terminating services for 8Chan vs the DNC - and rightfully so.

 

CloudFlare would, of course, still be 100% within their rights to terminate services for the DNC - but the public backlash would be severe and would probably ruin them. That's because the vast majority of people find the content on 8Chan to be reprehensible, whereas most people find American Democrats to be perfectly fine (or, at best, still okay people that they happen to disagree with on some matters).

 

But hey - welcome to capitalism.

19 minutes ago, JohnMc45 said:

This might not be the best battle to fight but it is part of a larger war. A war where people are told it is ok to blindly hate because the mob tells them so.

Think for yourself. I certainly do, and I'm still 100% okay with CloudFlare's actions.

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4 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Not just that, but is it a good idea to censor radical ideas and push them even more underground where they can't be challenged or debunked? It basically creates an echo chamber that radicalizes people with already radical views.

This is interesting because, on the flip side, leaving an open platform makes it easier for people to push their hateful or misinformed ideologies upon others. Take flat earthers and anti-vaxxers, I feel having such an open internet has made it that much easier for them to spread disinformation and make the problem worse than it initially was. Not only, but these people have managed to create their own echo chambers on websites like Facebook and Twitter, so we can't ban a particular website, we'd have to ban the ability of the misinformed and hateful to communicate altogether if this is the route we take (not that we should).

if you have to insist you think for yourself, i'm not going to believe you.

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I'm not going to read the whole thread to see if someone's already mentioned this, so if this is a repeat forgive me, but my issue with this is it does nothing to curtail violent or extremist ideology. They'll just make a new forum and go somewhere else that's even more obscure, further radicalizing them in their own echo chamber. I think this is a strong factor in why we're seeing so many mass killings globally, not just in the US (whether is guns, cars, bombs, etc).

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1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

Because the reason behind it was the celebration of a shooting then politics usually comes in which leads to gun control which then becomes about some form of art when the actual problem is about mental health and bigotry, and the reason for Cloudflare distancing themselves is about money.

Oh yeah, the white supremacist shooting in El Paso. Heard all about that.

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Never really liked 8chan, always preferred 4chan

8chan has a different culture than 4chan and tend to have people spouting their real opinions than just LARPing.

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24 minutes ago, Suika said:

This is interesting because, on the flip side, leaving an open platform makes it easier for people to push their hateful or misinformed ideologies upon others. Take flat earthers and anti-vaxxers, I feel having such an open internet has made it that much easier for them to spread disinformation and make the problem worse than it initially was. Not only, but these people have managed to create their own echo chambers on websites like Facebook and Twitter, so we can't ban a particular website, we'd have to ban the ability of the misinformed and hateful to communicate altogether if this is the route we take (not that we should).

And there in lies the problem who gets banned, removed or censored and how much.  I remember people talking some months back about some right wing talk show on YouTube getting there whole channel deleted at the same time as one of the way way out there Anti-vaxxers merely had her channel demonetized. Doctors where pushing to have her removed as it was not just your run of the mill toothpaste causes Autism BS but things that could actually harm/kill people. The talk show had maybe somehow had a fan doxx someone I didn't really fallow it.  When you try to censor you are bound to be seen as backing the opposite side. I am sure the far left thinks Facebook is just full of southern bible thumping gun toting rednecks and the right thinks its full of communist LGBT vegans.  

Hopefully any moderation will fall in the center but it can sometime be hard to see where center is. Sometimes one side can be very loud but it doesn't make there message true.           

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7 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Except, 99,9999999% of people didn't even know 8chan was hosted/powered by Cloudflare.

Just because you didn't know doesn't mean crucial people working in that industry didn't know. 

 

Companies don't turn $$$ away for no reason,

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Just because you didn't know doesn't mean crucial people working in that industry didn't know. 

 

Companies don't turn $$$ away for no reason,

 

Those people aren't dumb motherfuckers who jump on moral bullshit like normies do and start whining on twitter about it. There was something else going on behind the scenes.

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18 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Those people aren't dumb motherfuckers who jump on moral bullshit like normies do and start whining on twitter about it. There was something else going on behind the scenes.

ikr trying to be moral such a normie thing to do

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18 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Those people aren't dumb motherfuckers who jump on moral bullshit like normies do and start whining on twitter about it. There was something else going on behind the scenes.

What exactly do you think was going on behind the scene? Because I can guarantee you it was pretty simple - someone brought 8Chan and likely the manifesto (the one supposedly posted by one of the shooters minutes before the shooting) to the attention of a high level executive, and said "this was posted on one of our clients - here's a bunch of other negative things posted there too".

 

And that exec said "Well that's a PR disaster, and it's only a matter of time before this information becomes public knowledge and someone connects us to it - let's be proactive".

 

And that was that.

 

There was no ulterior motive. It was simply a company protecting it's image.

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3 hours ago, Suika said:

This is interesting because, on the flip side, leaving an open platform makes it easier for people to push their hateful or misinformed ideologies upon others. Take flat earthers and anti-vaxxers, I feel having such an open internet has made it that much easier for them to spread disinformation and make the problem worse than it initially was. Not only, but these people have managed to create their own echo chambers on websites like Facebook and Twitter, so we can't ban a particular website, we'd have to ban the ability of the misinformed and hateful to communicate altogether if this is the route we take (not that we should).

Flat earthers and anti vaxxers are basically memes at this point. For every flat Earth/anti vax post there are 10 replies debunking it and making fun of the user. And their communities are hardly echo chambers. Just check the flat Earth Twitter account. lol

 

I disagree that banning misinformation/offensive content is the way to go, and I think it's quite obvious why. Who gets to decide what is hateful and what is not? Who gets to decide who is misinformed and who is not? Basically if that happened, you would have a few big corporations deciding what you are allowed to say/believe and what you are not, which I think we can all agree would be really bad. (As bad as government censorship and potentially even worse)

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14 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Flat earthers and anti vaxxers are basically memes at this point. For every flat Earth/anti vax post there are 10 replies debunking it and making fun of the user. And their communities are hardly echo chambers. Just check the flat Earth Twitter account. lol

 

I disagree that banning misinformation/offensive content is the way to go, and I think it's quite obvious why. Who gets to decide what is hateful and what is not? Who gets to decide who is misinformed and who is not? Basically if that happened, you would have a few big corporations deciding what you are allowed to say/believe and what you are not, which I think we can all agree would be really bad. (As bad as government censorship and potentially even worse)

The problem is that this is already happening. It happens here on LTT, for example. In this case, it's ultimately Linus that decides, though I'm sure that he largely delegates that to the Admin team, etc.

 

And that's okay. Same reason I think it's okay for Facebook to remove posts that violate their TOS. Granted, in the case of Social Media like Facebook, it's difficult for a competitor to truly challenge them, but the only other option is for government regulation to force Facebook to undertake certain actions, such as forcing them to allow free speech despite the fact that law (nor the constitution) does not guarantee that.

 

So, basically the only way to ensure what you want is heavier government regulation.

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1 minute ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Flat earthers and anti vaxxers are basically memes at this point. For every flat Earth/anti vax post there are 10 replies debunking it and making fun of the user. And their communities are hardly echo chambers. Just check the flat Earth Twitter account. lol

 

I disagree that banning misinformation/offensive content is the way to go for one simple reason. Who gets to decide what is hateful and what is not? Who gets to decide who is misinformed and who is not? Basically if that happened, you would have a few big corporations deciding what you are allowed to say/believe and what you are not, which I think we can all agree would be really bad. (As bad as government censorship and potentially even worse)

I'm sorry, but it's pretty easy to establish a baseline for what constitutes hate and misinformation on a privately owned site.

 

For example, flat-Earthers and anti-vaxxers are demonstrably wrong. That's not the site determining what's false; that's objective reality.  If there's a well-established consensus based on evidence, a private site shouldn't have to entertain someone trying to spread false claims, especially since it can produce real damage.  Look at anti-vaxxers, for instance -- arguably the rise of infections was spurred on by ignorant parents trusting in false claims on Facebook.

 

Hate is a thornier subject, but I don't think it's a stretch to set minimum expectations for fighting it.  And simply put, it's hard to say you're running a site that welcomes all cultures if you allow hatemongers to run wild.  As much concern as there is that private companies might have too much sway over what's allowed, I'd rather them do something than let hate purveyors make life miserable for everyone else.

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