More devastating CPU vulnerabilities akin to Spectre found in CPUs - Intel first, others might follow.

[App4that]

13 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

AFAIK AMD was vulnerable to Spectre but not to Meltdown, and they succeeded in fixing those vulnerabilities from what I've heard. At least on Ryzen chips.

 

What's more, you're forgetting that those flaws do not really affect home users, but you cannot ignore corporate ones - there are institutions, governments, companies, hospitals etc. that do use Intel CPUs (primarily) and those are a potential target for security exploits to steal data, collect ransom etc etc... I wouldn't bother with even talking about those exploits and home users because let's be honest, they aren't a concern for us

 

As for performance - I did see some performance loss with my 6700K system, on both CPU & storage side, despite using a Samsung 850 EVO as a boot drive so those are definitely something to keep in mind. It wasn't significant or game-changing but it was there and I feel like there should be some compensation for that performance loss, since my CPU is still under warranty and it was Intel's design flaw that was the culprit here.

So, I should get some compensation for AMD's design flaw that led to a bios update to adress that flaw which lowered my performance across the board?

 

Or are we ready to admit a pro AMD, anti Intel bias? One that has AMD customers like me unable to get proper support because of a lack of preasure on the AMD side to give that support. 

[Morgan MLGman]

1 minute ago, App4that said:

So, I should get some compensation for AMD's design flaw that led to a bios update to adress that flaw which lowered my performance across the board?

1

Yes, IMO yes you should, because you didn't pay for lower performance. Though it might be your mobo vendor that screwed up the BIOS patch, not AMD so I'd find that out first for sure

[App4that]

1 minute ago, Morgan MLGman said:

Yes, IMO yes you should, because you didn't pay for lower performance. Though it might be your mobo vendor that screwed up the BIOS patch, not AMD so I'd find that out first for sure

You know me Morgan, you get the point. I can live with the lower system memory speed (workstation so wipety do Bazil) or take the risk with security and roll back on the bios. Something I was faced with as a Intel customer, but backlash forced Intel and their partners to fix the stability issues. My point. 

[Agosto]

Oh come on Intel

I currently don't have the money to switch to Ryzen.

[Silentprototipe]

Meanwhile at Intel HQ

[Blackie Sheen]

1 hour ago, M.Yurizaki said:

I only feel bad for Intel because they're the tallest peg that keeps getting hammered down.

 

Remember, just because nobody's tested it on the other side of the fence doesn't mean it's not vulnerable.

Yeah, honestly I feel like amd is not getting the same level of research about security flaws then Intel simply because their presence in the server space is so much lower than Intel's. 20% amd vs 80% Intel. Here is the link to the stat:

https://www.tweaktown.com/image.php?image=imagescdn.tweaktown.com/news/5/7/57339_12_amd-takes-cpu-market-share-intel-thanks-ryzen.png

[Jito463]

1 hour ago, App4that said:

Ah, so if it's Intel having issues we should look into it, if AMD has issues it's a smear campaign..

Speaking personally, if the website had been "Intelflaws.com", and they had released in the same haphazard manner as CTS, I would have been just as opposed to it.  I'm not a fan of smear campaigns, no matter whether it's a company I favor or not.

[Morgan MLGman]

11 minutes ago, App4that said:

You know me Morgan, you get the point. I can live with the lower system memory speed (workstation so wipety do Bazil) or take the risk with security and roll back on the bios. Something I was faced with as a Intel customer, but backlash forced Intel and their partners to fix the stability issues. My point. 

I do get your point, I personally have no interest in switching to Ryzen because I'm perfectly satisfied with my 6700K's performance and it's possible that I would see a downgrade in gaming performance - though as a customer, I'm not okay with getting my performance lowered because of a design flaw after almost 2 years of using this CPU   Especially that I'm still covered by Intel's warranty... I feel like this wasn't handled properly by Intel in terms of customer care and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

What's more, they knew about those flaws since 2016 according to industry sources, and yet they released two mainstream microarchitectures in 2017 (Kaby Lake & Coffee Lake), there was also Skylake-X and Kaby Lake-X, all of those were not patched at all despite Intel being aware of those exploits for some time beforehand! This is what pains me here, how is stuff like that allowed and why isn't it punished in any way - you're pretty much releasing new, flawed products that you know you'll have to patch in the future but you don't give a damn about that?  

 

What issues did you encounter after patching Spectre? Just generally lower performance, or some weird stuff like Haswell owners (reboot loops and weird issues in general)?

[Zodiark1593]

4 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

I do get your point, I personally have no interest in switching to Ryzen because I'm perfectly satisfied with my 6700K's performance and it's possible that I would see a downgrade in gaming performance - though as a customer, I'm not okay with getting my performance lowered because of a design flaw after almost 2 years of using this CPU   Especially that I'm still covered by Intel's warranty... I feel like this wasn't handled properly by Intel in terms of customer care and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

What's more, they knew about those flaws since 2016 according to industry sources, and yet they released two mainstream microarchitectures in 2017 (Kaby Lake & Coffee Lake), there was also Skylake-X and Kaby Lake-X, all of those were not patched at all despite Intel being aware of those exploits for some time beforehand! This is what pains me here, how is stuff like that allowed and why isn't it punished in any way - you're pretty much releasing new, flawed products that you know you'll have to patch in the future but you don't give a damn about that?  

 

What issues did you encounter after patching Spectre? Just generally lower performance, or some weird stuff like Haswell owners (reboot loops and weird issues in general)?

I'm on mobile internet, so downloading windows updates isn't exactly feasible without killing my data cap. Tbh, last I updates was in September, not as though my PC gets internet often anyway. I'm on Haswell myself though.

[App4that]

4 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

I do get your point, I personally have no interest in switching to Ryzen because I'm perfectly satisfied with my 6700K's performance and it's possible that I would see a downgrade in gaming performance - though as a customer, I'm not okay with getting my performance lowered because of a design flaw after almost 2 years of using this CPU   Especially that I'm still covered by Intel's warranty... I feel like this wasn't handled properly by Intel in terms of customer care and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

What's more, they knew about those flaws since 2016 according to industry sources, and yet they released two mainstream microarchitectures in 2017 (Kaby Lake & Coffee Lake), there was also Skylake-X and Kaby Lake-X, all of those were not patched at all despite Intel being aware of those exploits for some time beforehand! This is what pains me here, how is stuff like that allowed and why isn't it punished in any way - you're pretty much releasing new, flawed products that you know you'll have to patch in the future but you don't give a damn about that?  

 

What issues did you encounter after patching Spectre? Just generally lower performance, or some weird stuff like Haswell owners (reboot loops and weird issues in general)?

Intel is kinda neutral on this one. Yeah, they could have fixed the issue on a hardware level, but the issue really isn't a mainstream issue. Also one fixed on a software level. My 8700k system is unchanged so you could argue they facilitated the software fix, on a hardware level with later architectures. Though that's speculation.

 

The issue here is the reaction, look at the title and posts of Intel staff with guns in their mouths. This is a smear campaign, nothing Intel can do could satiate the need for Intel being seen as the bad guy. AMD is protected, and allowed to slack. Hmm, swear I've seen this before and what that caused.

 

I left my Haswell system be. No real risk. 

 

 

[DrMacintosh]

I wonder how ARM would hold up to scrutiny. 

 

x86 architecture CPUs seem to just be chalk full of security holes. 

 

Maybe its time for a new architecture? 

[Canada EH]

2 hours ago, NMS said:

 

 

I honestly feel bad for Intel now.

With their trillions of dollars in profit

1 hour ago, Ryujin2003 said:

Cue AMD smear campaign....

 

 

So, why did these just get found now but never in the past? I guess I'm lost on why these existed for such a long time without being public knowledge much earlier.

Because AMD knew about it and just waited

[Mira Yurizaki]

2 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

I wonder how ARM would hold up to scrutiny. 

 

x86 architecture CPUs seem to just be chalk full of security holes. 

 

Maybe its time for a new architecture? 

The x86 architecture itself isn't a problem. It's how it's implemented.  ARM has processors vulnerable to Spectre as well (https://developer.arm.com/support/arm-security-updates)

 

The root cause of Meltdown and Spectre has to do with how speculative execution is implemented. If you have a processor with speculative execution, there's a chance it's vulnerable.

[AresKrieger]

11 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

If you have a processor with speculative execution, there's a chance it's vulnerable.

Well realistically its not a question of chance if the system uses a predictive algorithm it will be open for attack its just a matter of figuring out how said predictions work more or less.

 

The ease of access and scope of the hole can be mitigated but there will always be some weak spot, though this is true irregardless of speculative execution.

[linustouchtips]

so are we onto intel flaws now. amd paid the germans to write some non technical white paper stating intel should be worth nothing now let your fears run wild lol

[BuckGup]

3 hours ago, NMS said:

I honestly feel bad for Intel now.

Why the CEO has done insider trading and they sat on 4 cores for a decade because they could. Now they are fumbling and they have plenty of money to

[NMS]

7 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Why the CEO has done insider trading and they sat on 4 cores for a decade because they could. Now they are fumbling and they have plenty of money to

Oh not that bad. I'm still all for AMD.

But look at it this way: their competitors released a product that ripped Intel apart, then they rushed to release their product to only get bashed by reviewers, afterwards they dealt with vulnerabilities, and now 8 more to come.

But in a way, good! Some payback for the shady shit Intel has done with HP (Dell was it?).

[BuckGup]

22 minutes ago, NMS said:

Oh not that bad. I'm still all for AMD.

But look at it this way: their competitors released a product that ripped Intel apart, then they rushed to release their product to only get bashed by reviewers, afterwards they dealt with vulnerabilities, and now 8 more to come.

But in a way, good! Some payback for the shady shit Intel has done with HP (Dell was it?).

Intel needs some waking up. Competition is great

[NMS]

4 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Intel needs some waking up. Competition is great

For consumers mostly.

They've been basking in their glory for so long that I don't think they know what to do now.

 

No wait! I do! Team up with team Red to release a new NUC! HAH!

Edited May 3, 2018 by NMS

[Questargon]

By the way: The article said, that just because they didn't find these exact flaws in AMD and/or ARM CPU designs, this doesn't mean, that they aren't there.

 

Quote

So far we only have concrete information on Intel's processors and their plans for patches. However, there is initial evidence that at least some ARM CPUs are also vulnerable. Further research is already underway on whether the closely related AMD processor architecture is also susceptible to the individual Spectre-NG gaps, and to what extent.

 

The researchers had to start with a CPU design, so they picked the one with the largest marketshare - Intel - especially when it comes to datacenters. But on the other hand: It rubbed me the wrong way, that heise.de specifically used "...Multiple new Intel CPU flaws revealed.." in the headline of the article, as if AMD and ARM were safe, although they know better. In my opinion, Intel should have been omitted from the title - just use "...Multiple new CPU flaws revealed..." and explain the details within the body of the article only.

 

EDIT: /me looks at the title he gave this thread ... blushes... "Okay, I just did the same thing I blame heise.de for." :-/ Gonna change the title.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Questargon
Grrr, typos... / Reason to change the title of the thread

[pas008]

32 minutes ago, NMS said:

Oh not that bad. I'm still all for AMD.

But look at it this way: their competitors released a product that ripped Intel apart, then they rushed to release their product to only get bashed by reviewers, afterwards they dealt with vulnerabilities, and now 8 more to come.

But in a way, good! Some payback for the shady shit Intel has done with HP (Dell was it?).

huh?

ripped intel apart how? you mean multithreaded performance? just as shitty release with problems from both?

vulnerabilities wasnt  it a month ago 13 for amd?

 

they will be finding many more issues on both

 

but I'm all for this competition though but both would get their heads out of their asses on this marketing/naming/and releasing a fucking product correctly

 

 

[Ginger_]

2 hours ago, rcmaehl said:

100% CONFIRMED HUGE BUG IN ALL MICROSOFT OPERATING SYSTEMS. MICROSOFT SHOULD BE WORTH $0.00!

I was about to say the same thing.... Beat me to it

[DoctorWho1975]

Reading this thread is painful.

[Valentyn]

Time for IBM to bring PowerPC back to the masses with Power10 tech inside! I too want a 5Ghz SMT8 monster in my room the size of a child's head!

[ravenshrike]

6 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

I only feel bad for Intel because they're the tallest peg that keeps getting hammered down.

 

Remember, just because nobody's tested it on the other side of the fence doesn't mean it's not vulnerable.

SPECTRE class bugs are something that everybody running a modern processor is vulnerable to and can only be mitigated against. MELTDOWN class bugs are something else entirely and unlike SPECTRE, are due to completely idiotic initial design decisions.