ESL Not Allowing Transgender CSGO Players Into Female Only Tournament

[ivan134]

1 hour ago, Eroda said:

not saying there arent people like that but there probably is people who do pretend and try to take advantage of situations 

Nope. There aren't. There only people who think there this happens are people who think that transgenderism is just cross dressing.

[divito]

2 hours ago, TacticlTwinkie said:

Is the ESL arguing that the players that are biologically male have some sort of advantage? There is a similar debate in combat sports, where trans-gendered athletes are having to compete in their biological sex's division. But there is some reason to this, as there are genetic differences in bone structure, bone density, angle of the hips (relates to kicking power), etc. I say all this to ask this question: Is there a biological advantage to being a genetic male in competitive gaming? I don't see one, but perhaps someone else knows if there is indeed one. Its the only logical reason for not allowing trans-gender competitors in a "All Female" video game tournament.

Just because competitive gaming isn't as physical as traditional sports, you're still utilizing certain muscle groups; there will be differences in dexterity, on top of all the neurological differences between a male and female brain as it relates to things applicable to competitive gaming, such as spatial awareness. There is plenty of research on the cognitive differences (including hormonal) and you can see their application in competitive gaming.

[AresKrieger]

Well it makes sense to do so since gender segregation in skill competitions are equalizing for biological differences not what pronoun someone wants to go by

[YoloSwag]

The problem is people consider this to be unfair... on both sides! 

 

First of all, there's this men and women equality thing that's being pushed ever since the beginning.

Men and women are comparable but never truly equal. Some still want to push that equality even though it is apparent in their physiology and the way they think. Not saying that one can exist without the other but both have distinct roles (obviously pointing to reproductive roles and others).

 

Then there's this transgender and others thing saying they want equal rights as well even without properly addressing the first issue. If the first issue won't be resolved with both being equal in all things, why would this have a chance at being resolved?

[Zodiark1593]

1 hour ago, Richtofen The Hyena said:

Its a good choice by ESL. Nothing wrong. 

 

It's just like how athletics are; it's because guys have different brains than girls do. In which if a trans guy (MTF) joined a female tourney, than that would be unfair. If a female joined a guy tourney, the female would most likely lose. (unless they're really good at whatever the game is.)

In physical sports, I tend to agree with banning Trans - women from women's sports purely for objective reasons. Transitioning cannot entirely undo that which was already developed. I am unsure, however, as to how this would impact sports that require reflexes, rather than physical strength. 

[Eaglerino]

How many transgender people even play CS Go?

[AnonymousGuy]

Bigger problem is there's a female-only tournament to begin with.  This isn't a "sport" where having testosterone makes a difference in performance, so they're kinda insulting women by assuming they need to play against each other because they don't have a chance against men.

[Taf the Ghost]

1 minute ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Bigger problem is there's a female-only tournament to begin with.  This isn't a "sport" where having testosterone makes a difference in performance, so they're kinda insulting women by assuming they need to play against each other because they don't have a chance against men.

Testosterone & Estrogen effect brain structures, Visual-Spatial reasoning, hand-eye coordination and pretty much every other aspect of mental cognition & reaction time. At the "average" level, the difference isn't huge but still exists.  At the extremes, so the hyper-competent at specific tasks, the differences are greatly amplified.  

 

The double X nature of the female sex chromosomes adds redundancy & stability to the genetic makeup of a Woman. This leads to significant less Women having genetic issues.  In the cognitive context, it produces a much, much higher grouping of Women around the "average" level, whereas Men end up with significant less at "average" and a much larger group of extremes, on both sides.

 

Before about 1985 or so, this was perfectly accepted and acceptable, if a little advanced, Biology.  Now I've just committed a massive PC violation for simply stating the reality of matters.  But since we live in a media environment run by those that are "concerned" about whatever is the new trend today, such is the place we're at.

 

I still don't get the fascination with watching Men taking sex hormones beat up on Women. I thought part of the point of modern society was to stop beating Women?

[Doobeedoo]

3 hours ago, TacticlTwinkie said:

Is the ESL arguing that the players that are biologically male have some sort of advantage? There is a similar debate in combat sports, where trans-gendered athletes are having to compete in their biological sex's division. But there is some reason to this, as there are genetic differences in bone structure, bone density, angle of the hips (relates to kicking power), etc. I say all this to ask this question: Is there a biological advantage to being a genetic male in competitive gaming? I don't see one, but perhaps someone else knows if there is indeed one. Its the only logical reason for not allowing trans-gender competitors in a "All Female" video game tournament.

I was thinking the same, while reading this I wondered.

First, I wondered why is there even a female only tournament? As in it's female only allowed? Depends how people are good, regardless being male female, they form teams based upon skill and how they get along too, that's what matter for like gaming teams.
I thought, it's not physical sport of sort so odd. Though in reality, males are more competitive I remembered. So even being a video game, males compete way more than females and way more on higher level. So I guess it's simply mental battle in competition as such, as gaming in this example. This doesn't surprise me really, male vs female differences that are not physical only.

[ARikozuM]

3 hours ago, N1ghtshade said:

I'm gonna have to agree with ESL on this one. Because on average males have a much faster reaction time than females, it'd be completely unfair to let someone who's had 20+ years of testosterone taking effect on their body and making them faster into a women's only tournament just cause they say they're a woman.

 

Testosterone isn't what increases reaction time. The genetic makeup and how the brain and muscles develop their interconnects (nerves and hormones) are based on all chromosomes. Testosterone only increases the amount of cellular activity within the body as instructed by all of said chromosomes.

[ARikozuM]

3 hours ago, tlink said:

sample size of 120 is really not big enough to be conclusive,

Actually, 110 samples is an agreed upon sample size for any scientific study. The more samples the better, but that isn't to say that going with 10,000 is feasible enough to carry forth said study.

[Bleedingyamato]

2 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

In physical sports, I tend to agree with banning Trans - women from women's sports purely for objective reasons. Transitioning cannot entirely undo that which was already developed. I am unsure, however, as to how this would impact sports that require reflexes, rather than physical strength. 

I don't think it would affect anything.  I have no doubt that females beat males all the time in gaming and the reverse is also true.  I would be very surprised if being either sex whether by birth or transition would give a clear advantage.  

 

In short: I believe males and females are equal when it comes to gaming.

[Clanscorpia]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/transgender-female-boxer-gives-female-opponent-concussion-breaks-her-eye-so

 

I think its completely fair. Sports should be defined by sex /unless/ said trans person has grown up on a hormone (started before puberty)

[TroubleKlef]

Lots of misinformation here.

 

Female only tournaments were not made to ban females from males. In fact, every large scale and Major tournament is open to all teams, regardless of gender. The situation here is not to disallow women in professional CSGO but rather, don't allow men in female only tournaments.

 

Why would they do this? The top female CSGO teams are at best a Tier 2 pro team. To encourage more female teams to start up, they ban males from competing at female only events. By having female teams, brands are advertising that they're doing their part of encouraging females in a male dominated scene. 

 

Again, females are entirely allowed to compete in large scale tournaments and enter via the qualifiers, just like how everyone else does. However, they don't because the skill gap is too large, whether that be due to physical differences or that female the scene doesn't put in the amount of time male pros do.

 

In regards to transgenders not being allowed to compete in female only tournaments, it once again boils down to whether or not you think a transgender is truly a female or male. That's a debate I'd rather not have on this forum.

[Morgan MLGman]

5 hours ago, Stefan1024 said:

This is totally stupid IMHO. They changed the gender and are a new personality now. You can't fake it or change every other day like you feel.

They shuld be allowed to attend every match like every other peson with the same sex.

 

Allways the phobias against homosexual, transsexual and other kindes of "not so mainstream" persons. Just sad.

I disagree with that. Physically, they were still born as men and they've got an advantage compared to the rest of the female participants and it is unfair to them (seeing as pro gaming scene is filled with 99% men, regardless of the game). They just should reject anyone who wasn't born as a woman. After all, it's a female only tournament and let's not get into that "but they feel that they're women" talk cause it's just pure bs.

[Ertman]

I swear I have heard of studies that conclude then males, in general have an edge in reaction time.

 

Using google to do some quick searching I can find some studies that state this as well, but I freely admit that I am ignorant of which studies are actually valid and/or relevant.

[Serin]

A lot of you are making a mistake in how to apply statistics about gender differences to things like reaction time or indeed intelligence etc.
Whilst the averages might suggest a difference you'e going to get more variation within those groups than said average would suggest.

Its like when you compare different ethno-groupings on intelligence. There's an average but its not representative of the diversity in G scores you find within said groups. So much so that it is almost pointless exploring said differences.

There are also a few other things to consider when talking about trans-people specifically - just to clear up some popular misconceptions.
1: The HRT trans people take does over time alter brain chemistry and structure(Check out 'neuroplasticity').
2: Muscle, fat and bone changes occur and vary depending largely on the age at which a trans-person starts HRT. There also seems to be a genetic component to how well said drugs will work, although like much of this, very little research has been carried out.

I'd also like to point out to those who seem to enjoy howling from their rooftops that 'trans-people will always be the sex they were born as, its genetics hurr durr'
- So that thing between your ears - its the most complex object in the known universe. To think that you are capable of so easily putting its general and spectacular weirdness in such an easily defined box is... a tad arrogant. Science doesn't even know what to make of gay people yet - and it has even less idea what the hell is going on in the brains of trans people.
Most of what Human beings are comes from the brain. Considering only a persons chromosomes is just needlessly narrow-sighted.
The obvious comparison here is that whilst gay people are accepted despite the lack of scientific understanding, trans-people are apparently not afforded the same.
Inconsistent to say the least. Hell we barely have a grip on the full picture of Human genetics(epi' and otherwise) anyway.

Draw what conclusions you like from these facts.

Edit: Just another note on the 2 points I made - The age at which people are transitioning is decreasing rapidly as societal and medical acceptance increases. This means that more and more trans-people will be all but indistinguishable from their cis-gendered counterparts. As noted the earlier a person jumps on the HRT bandwagon the better the results tend to be. Height, shape etc etc will all more closely if not completely resemble the gender to which they are transitioning to.
So good luck to those who enjoy disallowing trans-people from things. Your task will soon be all but impossible.

[AntonChigurh]

1 hour ago, ARikozuM said:

Testosterone isn't what increases reaction time. The genetic makeup and how the brain and muscles develop their interconnects (nerves and hormones) are based on all chromosomes. Testosterone only increases the amount of cellular activity within the body as instructed by all of said chromosomes.

Ah, my bad then. My point still stands though

[KingKeith55]

Lol who gives a fuck female CS is a big fucking joke anyways

[Morgan MLGman]

1 minute ago, Serin said:

A lot of you are making a mistake in how to apply statistics about gender differences to things like reaction time or indeed intelligence etc.
Whilst the averages might suggest a difference you'e going to get more variation within those groups than said average would suggest.

Its like when you compare different ethno-groupings on intelligence. There's an average but its not representative of the diversity in G scores you find within said groups. So much so that it is almost pointless exploring said differences.

There are also a few other things to consider when talking about trans-people specifically - just to clear up some popular misconceptions.
1: The HRT trans people take does over time alter brain chemistry and structure(Check out 'neuroplasticity').
2: Muscle, fat and bone changes occur and vary depending largely on the age at which a trans-person starts HRT. There also seems to be a genetic component to how well said drugs will work, although like much of this, very little research has been carried out.

I'd also like to point out to those who seem to enjoy howling from their rooftops that 'trans-people will always be the sex they were born as, its genetics hurr durr'
- So that thing between your ears - its the most complex object in the known universe. To think that you are capable of so easily putting its general and spectacular weirdness in such an easily defined box is... a tad arrogant. Science doesn't even know what to make of gay people yet - and it has even less idea what the hell is going on in the brains of trans people.
Most of what Human beings are comes from the brain. Considering only a persons chromosomes is just needlessly narrow-sighted.
The obvious comparison here is that whilst gay people are accepted despite the lack of scientific understanding, trans-people are apparently not afforded the same.
Inconsistent to say the least. Hell we barely have a grip on the full picture of Human genetics(epi' and otherwise) anyway.

Yeah, though you said all those things about how those people can "be what they want", and yet I don't see normal, heterosexual people doing this:

Or this:

On the streets just to manifest how heterosexual they are. You mentioned that: "Science doesn't even know what to make of gay people yet - and it has even less idea what the hell is going on in the brains of trans people." - Well, judging by those pictures, it probably never will. Unless we're talking about studies that research mental diseases.

[ARikozuM]

1 minute ago, N1ghtshade said:

Ah, my bad then. My point still stands though

For the wrong reasons now...

[Serin]

1 minute ago, Morgan MLGman said:

Yeah, though you said all those things about how those people can "be what they want", and yet I don't see normal, heterosexual people doing this:

 

 

Or this:

 

 

On the streets just to manifest how heterosexual they are. You mentioned that: "Science doesn't even know what to make of gay people yet - and it has even less idea what the hell is going on in the brains of trans people." - Well, judging by those pictures, it probably never will. Unless we're talking about studies that research mental diseases.

That really isn't relevant to this discussion. 

[AntonChigurh]

13 minutes ago, Serin said:

I'd also like to point out to those who seem to enjoy howling from their rooftops that 'trans-people will always be the sex they were born as, its genetics hurr durr'
- So that thing between your ears - its the most complex object in the known universe. To think that you are capable of so easily putting its general and spectacular weirdness in such an easily defined box is... a tad arrogant. Science doesn't even know what to make of gay people yet - and it has even less idea what the hell is going on in the brains of trans people.
Most of what Human beings are comes from the brain. Considering only a persons chromosomes is just needlessly narrow-sighted.
The obvious comparison here is that whilst gay people are accepted despite the lack of scientific understanding, trans-people are apparently not afforded the same.
Inconsistent to say the least. Hell we barely have a grip on the full picture of Human genetics(epi' and otherwise) anyway.

Draw what conclusions you like from these facts.

While the statement is overused, they're not necessarily wrong when they say you can't change genetics. Trans people might feel like they're a different gender than what they are, but you cannot change genetics. They can act differently, dress differently, and even take hormones, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still biologically male or female, and they still have XX/XY chromosomes. Do with that information what you will, but imho I think ESL made a right move here, as allowing men who identify as women into a women's only competition would be unfair, and they would have a significant advantage over everyone else there.

[AntonChigurh]

2 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

For the wrong reasons now...

?

[ARikozuM]

I think the bigger issue here isn't the political correctness of the decision, but the player's ability to abuse the ruling had it been allowed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't e-sports players compete for a purse like in tennis?