ESL Not Allowing Transgender CSGO Players Into Female Only Tournament

[Coaxialgamer]

15 minutes ago, ThatGuyWhoTwirlsHisPen said:

If the "debate" about biological sex is filled with pedantic sophistry akin to asking "if a blind person can't see, do they have eyes?" then it's not any "debate" worth having.

I don't see your point. How  does this relate to the topic at hand? 

[Coaxialgamer]

20 minutes ago, samcool55 said:

Change the question, why wouldn't they? It's not because 1 thing is "broken" every sign of that human being male is gone... 

Depends where you draw the line, HOWEVER someone with XY and all male-genes deactivated isn't suddenly a female, right?

I mean why would you suddenly treat them differently? There's more to it than a bunch of genes. The way a male skeleton develops is differently from a female (hip width is one of the most visible ones and commonly used to identify the gender of a skeleton) so it's not because they "deactivate" everything when the guy is 15 or 20 years old the effect of the genes up to that point are gone. 

 

Genes make permanent changes to the human body that can't be undone. It's like converting a desktop into a laptop or the other way. You can end up doing a great job but the signs of what it used to be will be there and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

I honestly believe in the future people will look back at transgender genderfluid stuff and will think "geez people were really stupid back then".

It's just a matter of time until science comes out with undenyable proof changing the gender of a human is impossible.

I never said anything about genes deactivating at ages of 15-20. They are determined before birth. This isn't the question. 

The way the your skeleton, brain, hips etc developed are all linked to your genetic makeup. The shape of the chromosome itself doesn't affect that. 

 

Things like the SRY gene are typically found on the Y chromosome, but can be absent due to abnormalities. A person with XY and absent/deactivated SRY in female in every aspect. They have female genitals,  produce high levels of estrogen, have the same bodily makeup as any other female. This at birth mind you, not after surgery. 

 

I'm not arguing for transgender people here, just saying that the whole XY/XX as sole determining factor of sex is flawed. 

 

And to be clear, i wasn't giving the above examples as truths.  They are just examples of questions that can be  asked. Of course a sterile male still qualifies as male. The question itself is redundant, but just an example of how you push some ideas. 

 

And to be clear, i don't mean "deactivated", as in tampered with after birth. Just that the gene is present on the DNA strand, but doesn't express its traits. 

[Crossbred]

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."

-Orwell

[Spork829]

Late to party here but what the what? Why are there even gender specific video game tournaments at all? I get it when it's something quite physical where men do potentially have a genetic advantage, but I can't understand why this would even be a thing. And of course that point aside, if the person is fully transitioned and by all means other than they used to be male considered a female, I see no issue other than prejudice.

[plsno]

Of course, it's the right thing. Just because you think you're a woman doesn't make you one. 

[matrix07012]

5 minutes ago, Spork829 said:

Late to party here but what the what? Why are there even gender specific video game tournaments at all? I get it when it's something quite physical where men do potentially have a genetic advantage, but I can't understand why this would even be a thing. And of course that point aside, if the person is fully transitioned and by all means other than they used to be male considered a female, I see no issue other than prejudice.

 

1 hour ago, matrix07012 said:

There is no male only league. There is a main league which is for everybody and than there is a female only league. The reason the main league is male dominated is that more men play shooters and men have faster response times.

 

[ARikozuM]

30 minutes ago, Spork829 said:

Late to party here but what the what? Why are there even gender specific video game tournaments at all? I get it when it's something quite physical where men do potentially have a genetic advantage, but I can't understand why this would even be a thing. And of course that point aside, if the person is fully transitioned and by all means other than they used to be male considered a female, I see no issue other than prejudice.

It's not solely a genetic issue, it includes nature/nurture, psychology and physiology. Psychology is the hardest to accept or deny. Is this person truly transgender? Remember that these guys play for a lot of money and if entering a weaker division means a higher chance to succeed, would there be an ulterior motive?

[MeDownYou]

Imo if they are f2m transgender, sure they should be allowed in this tourney. If they are m2f, then well on a biological level within DNA no amount of hormones or body modification can change that and should be barred. That being said for the few people who have DNA of both genders, I say that they should be able to choose. 

[AntonChigurh]

18 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

I think the bigger issue here isn't the political correctness of the decision, but the player's ability to abuse the ruling had it been allowed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't e-sports players compete for a purse like in tennis?

In the big tournaments, yes. There's millions of dollars at stake in the huge League and DOTA tournaments

[VicBar]

Well after reading all of that I'd like to say it was pretty interesting for the most part but also pretty cringeworthy at times.

I am no expert on any of it (like most of you), I am but a simple human male, who can and will give his opinion. Be advised.

 

I agree with the decision, I think sex is how you were born. Be it XX, XY, or XY with the SRY gene disabled; what your body gives you at birth is your SEX (exceptions exist XXY, but they are that, exceptions). I can understand that gender is a social construct, so maybe recanting the decision is fine because it may encourage more women to play, as is the objective of that sex-specific league.

BUT, it is clear that some trans people definitely have huge advantages after transitioning in things like sports: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/03/22/transgender-woman-wins-international-weightlifting-title-amid-controversy-over-fairness/?utm_term=.726aa4bd80cb

I have always been pro e-sports considered sports, so why should it be any different. All the arguments saying it requires much of the same as a traditional sport should also apply when considering sex.

https://www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html

 

I also agree that there are certain social... lets call them, tendencies, that would set statistical margins in favor of one or the other sex, i.e. early adoption to vidyagames in favor of men, and therefore reaction times etc.. To know if it is deeply rooted in our genes we'd have to test a significant amount of people against each other, falling in categories like having the same jobs, (required skills), background (upbringing), etc.....

 

So those were all the interesting bits, all the rest I care not to comment on.

 

Have a wonderful day!

[Sauron]

There are undeniable physical differences between male and female humans. Some of these don't go away with a "sex change" operation and hormone treatments.

 

Wether in videogames these make a difference or not is up for debate - but I doubt the idea behind a female only tournament is to get those who consider themselves female to play against each other, at that point why run a dedicated tournament at all? someone clearly thought there was some physical disadvantage for women compared to men which warranted a separation.

[Teddy07]

7 pages. People really care.

[GreenZombie]

Is not it obvious that there are protracted sexual organs so .... and if there are internal so ...???

[Clanscorpia]

As someone whos trans, I wish the community stopped fucking whining about everything. You're not privileged, stop asking for special treatment and people wont be fucking pissed at us. Shit like this should look at /sex/ not gender. 

[Dr0pp3r]

why is this topic so highly controversial 

[AnonymousGuy]

 

1 hour ago, Clanscorpia said:

As someone whos trans, I wish the community stopped fucking whining about everything. You're not privileged, stop asking for special treatment and people wont be fucking pissed at us. Shit like this should look at /sex/ not gender. 

It would not surprise me if a lot of "special" groups just pretend to be victims all the time to ride the wave of special treatment.  If I were transgender I'd probably want a special category too to have an edge, because why not.

 

I work in the tech sector, women right now are a "hot commodity".  Privately they will all say "yeah it's complete bullshit that I'm being treated like I need a handout, and it makes everyone think I didn't really earn anything I get".  Publicly they never say that because what woman is going to turn down a promotion regardless if it's only because she has a vagina?

[Misanthrope]

I see the point on physical sports but do we have conclusive studies that show males have an inherit advantage in hand/eye coordination? If it's a cultural advantage or whatever else then no it shouldn't count. What research I've seen seems to point at the fact that females would have an advantage over a pre-transition transsexual just like they do over males.

 

Bringing LTT videos into this (I'm sure they'll love to be mixed into this flame pit of a thread lol) I remember their Cherry MX tour and how most of the factory workers that need detail are female. The "sweatshop" stereotype is also there for a reason with females and children being inherently more apt at fine motor hand/eye coordination tasks.

[AnonymousGuy]

1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

I see the point on physical sports but do we have conclusive studies that show males have an inherit advantage in hand/eye coordination? If it's a cultural advantage or whatever else then no it shouldn't count. What research I've seen seems to point at the fact that females would have an advantage over a pre-transition transsexual just like they do over males.

 

Bringing LTT videos into this (I'm sure they'll love to be mixed into this flame pit of a thread lol) I remember their Cherry MX tour and how most of the factory workers that need detail are female. The "sweatshop" stereotype is also there for a reason with females and children being inherently more apt at fine motor hand/eye coordination tasks.

It is proven that men have better mental spatial positioning than women do.  Practical translation: it's why men are better at parallel parking, we can mentally visualize the space and the car on average better than the opposite sex.

 

Still, what's the point of having a competition if it isn't fair to *all* participants.  Some men are born with shitty hand eye coordination, should they get a special competition too?

[ATFink]

Not sure if this topic is related, but if this article I'm linking is one in the same as this thread's story I think it says a lot about modern day Journalism and victim/outrage culture:

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/buzzfeed-transgender-trolled/

[Misanthrope]

7 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

It is proven that men have better mental spatial positioning than women do.  Practical translation: it's why men are better at parallel parking, we can mentally visualize the space and the car on average better than the opposite sex.

 

Still, what's the point of having a competition if it isn't fair to *all* participants.  Some men are born with shitty hand eye coordination, should they get a special competition too?

That can be proven but it's hardly relevant to a videogame that's basically 2D. Maybe future VR e-sports.

 

As to your second statement the point of sports is that they divide people in categories to be more fair to all of them. This isn't even related to being a male or female but even just different weight categories among boxers and fighters because we recognize there's an inherit disparity between fighters of different weight levels.

[Clanscorpia]

22 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

I see the point on physical sports but do we have conclusive studies that show males have an inherit advantage in hand/eye coordination? If it's a cultural advantage or whatever else then no it shouldn't count. What research I've seen seems to point at the fact that females would have an advantage over a pre-transition transsexual just like they do over males.

 

Bringing LTT videos into this (I'm sure they'll love to be mixed into this flame pit of a thread lol) I remember their Cherry MX tour and how most of the factory workers that need detail are female. The "sweatshop" stereotype is also there for a reason with females and children being inherently more apt at fine motor hand/eye coordination tasks.

Thats why theres the main league where they dont care if you are male or female, its just the best teams win. Only woman have their own tourney

[AshleyAshes]

http://compete.kotaku.com/league-revising-rules-after-trans-players-get-rejected-1795017693

 

Quote

This story seems to have been based on a hoax designed to get BuzzFeed and, by extension, other sites to publish an inaccurate news article. Sly Buehl Rigilio is quoted in a new article on Infowars saying that he and his friends posed as trans women to trick BuzzFeed “for the laughs.”

It's a hoax.

[Clanscorpia]

5 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

http://compete.kotaku.com/league-revising-rules-after-trans-players-get-rejected-1795017693

 

It's a hoax.

Oh, I thought it was a different one I read about lol

[yian88]

There are only two genders, and you can only play in your respective biological gender team.

[EPENEX]

My question is why is there a male and female league? In E-sports your gender doesn't matter whatsoever.