Windows 12 for 2024? Microsoft may switch back to a 3-year life cycle.

[StDragon]

4 minutes ago, SeriousDad69 said:

Well, I guess this is hope for people that want to skip Windows 11 without switching to Linux.

Linux is a shit-show with regards to UI. Under the hood, it's a great OS (unless you need 3rd party driver support that ain't open sourced). But the real issue is poor UI design philosophy. You'll never get everyone to agree on which UI suits best. But for the most part, the GUI is garbage.

Linux is a wannabe desktop OS. Where it really shines is as an appliance / server OS. I mean, it's free. You get what you pay for. Can't exactly complain.

[Blademaster91]

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

People said this for every version of Windows. Even back when Windows 95 was out. A line needs to be drawn.

In any case, I don't get your complaint... the upgrade is free, so just upgrade,

Except W11 is W10 with a worse start menu and a settings menu that requires more clicks to access things.

And the upgrade being free is nice, but Windows isn't free as you're paying for it with data and telemetry collection, and probably even more data being taken as MS wants you to sign in with an account.

[StDragon]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

but Windows isn't free as you're paying for it with data and telemetry collection, and probably even more data being taken as MS wants you to sign in with an account.

Ironic, isn't it? Wasn't the entire point of the telemetry was to collect UI usage statistics to help build a better OS more in tune with peoples real usage habits and efficiencies vs what's academically done in a lab environment? I mean, when your "focus group" is your entire consumer base, it's pretty hard to fuck that up.

Well....they succeeded in doing just that with Windows 11. Epic FAIL!

[Forbidden Wafer]

8 minutes ago, StDragon said:

Ironic, isn't it? Wasn't the entire point of the telemetry was to collect UI usage statistics to help build a better OS more in tune with peoples real usage habits and efficiencies vs what's academically done in a lab environment? I mean, when your "focus group" is your entire consumer base, it's pretty hard to fuck that up.

Well....they succeeded in doing just that with Windows 11. Epic FAIL!

Considering they completely ignore most of the feedback from the Feedback hub, I guess they ignore the telemetry too.

 

19 minutes ago, StDragon said:

Linux is a shit-show with regards to UI. 

That is true, but W11 UI is so bad that GNOME doesn't even bother me anymore. W10 still miles ahead of anything ever done in Linux and Mac, even with the Windows 95 era dialogs popping up out of nowhere from time to time.

[GhostRoadieBL]

what they don't mention (obviously) is going back to a 3 year model allows them to easily play whack a mole with ad and telemetry blockers and push more "updated" versions of core software with more paid "features"

 

IF microsoft abandons telemetry and ads I'd gladly go back to a 3 year model but I still wouldn't be upgrading more than once every 5-6 years anyway to allow them to bug fix before adopting.

 

Onedrive is still a very sketchy setup, the cost doesn't line up at all with the operation cost of a 1TB or 6TB drive in a remote server so where are they making the money from? The user terms and conditions is very loose with what they can do with the files and who has access to the files, not a great start when pushing paid "secure" file storage.

 

never forget Microsoft's user agreement:

Quote

We share your personal data with your consent or to complete any transaction or provide any product you have requested or authorized. We also share data with Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries; with vendors working on our behalf; when required by law or to respond to legal process; to protect our customers; to protect lives; to maintain the security of our products; and to protect the rights and property of Microsoft and its customers.

 

[AlwaysFSX]

6 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

No it wasn't windows 8 was simply forcing a mobile type os on everyone who didn't want it. I know a ton of people who were super happy about windows 10 as it was much better than 8. Really for the most part it was people complaining about cortana and telemetry that was why some were complaining which tbh were hardly issues in my mind. 

Windows 8 was no more than 7 with a massive tile based start menu. Everyone's complaints about it were a little overblown.

People complained about 10 just as much because of forced upgrades, missing features, telemetry, etc.

This whole "every other version of windows is good" thing is complete bs lol.

[wanderingfool2]

I feel this is just an excuse to make major changes and ship broken products more.

 

I think it would have been better sticking with Windows 10, and ironing it out.  Or at least if they do a major change by replacing everything like in Windows 11 actually wait until features are actually completed.

 

e.g. No reason why dragging a file into another program should be that hard.

e.g. Having compressed icons (I for one don't like having to hover hover and pick...it's needless mouse movements and more difficult with a touch pad).

e.g. Taskbar on sides (for certain workflows it's very convenient to temp have it on left/right sides)

 

They really should be fixing and improving those kinds of things instead of focusing on the new versions of Windows.  At this stage, it's hard to even figure out what new the common user uses between even Windows 10 and Windows 11.  Everything that I've experienced going from 10 to 11 has been negative.

 

It's why I think going back to a 3 year cycle is going to make things worse, they rushed W11 and released it before it was even ready (even in it's current state I'd argue it's barely passable compared to W10).  So I have no hopes if they are forcing a 3 year internal cycle.  Less focus on fixing what's currently broken and more ways for top execs to check boxes that they are doing things while messing over the userbase with incomplete projects

[jagdtigger]

10 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

And MS already discussing W12 seems like they're trying to get past W11, not surprising with the amount of backlash MS has gotten for an OS which is just worse to use with menus requiring extra clicking, and the push for people to buy new hardware.

I dont think they care that much, having a monopoly makes it possible for them to do whatever they want without fearing ppl moving away from them.

 

5 hours ago, StDragon said:

But for the most part, the GUI is garbage.

IDK about that, my father who only used windows up until a few weeks ago dont have any issues with KDE. Im quite the distro (and thus DE) hopper so i seen quite a few variations and can say that blanket stating "ui is garbage" is just BS.
As for not having a default DE thats not inherently a bad thing, especially since you can peace-meal a DE and only install the parts needed for the particular program without installing the full thing. Package managers are fantastic arent they? Or if you dont want to clutter the system and worry about dependencies you could containerize it with quite a few things.

[captain_to_fire]

11 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Better OneDrive integration with File Explorer

I pay for Microsoft 365 Family but there are times when documents and files are either too slow to sync or download and I have a 100 down/100 up fiber connection. 
 

Not to mention that OneDrive still sucks with photo syncing. Grouping of photos by location is way too broad and face detection is a hit or miss. Google Photos and iCloud had that figured out for many years already. 

[Vishera]

11 hours ago, Levent said:

This is so fucking dumb. Releasing operating systems without QA, then adding features every year and now releasing new themes as new OS every 3 years? Fuck that.

Windows with the WAAS model - Bad QA

Windows with the traditional model - OK QA

 

Examples for WAAS operating systems are your average Windows 10 and 11.

 

Examples for traditional model operating systems are Windows 10 LTSC 2019,Windows 10 LTSC 2021,Windows Server 2022. 

 

I am using Windows Server 2022 and it's not as frustrating to use as it was for me with Windows 10.

It saves me from all the nonsense that Windows 10 has. 

[Beerzerker]

6 hours ago, StDragon said:

1: Ironic, isn't it? Wasn't the entire point of the telemetry was to collect UI usage statistics to help build a better OS more in tune with peoples real usage habits and efficiencies vs what's academically done in a lab environment?

2: I mean, when your "focus group" is your entire consumer base, it's pretty hard to fuck that up.

3: Well....they succeeded in doing just that with Windows 11. Epic FAIL!

1: NO - It's to gather as much data as possible on YOU for their own purposes, which are self-serving to them and of no benefit to you, the user/owner of the machine.

2: You mean "BETA Testing Group" and they can fuck that up like clockwork.
Too many "The latest Win update broke my machine" threads/topics to even count here or anywhere else. Throw in for the typical user they've even taken away control if it gets updates or not to avoid these kinds of headaches, it's not a good thing. Of course we (As in many users here) can work around it, your parents, grandparents and so on most likely won't have such knowledge so they are stuck with it... As intended by MS.

3: The obvious culmination of it all.

I've had exactly 0 issues with broken updates, bad patches/fixes, broken drivers and all else from it and I CAN still control if and when I get updates too.

I'm so glad I did go to Linux and just because you personally don't like it doesn't mean it's a bad choice for everyone else.
If it works for you, go with it and that even applies to Windows if you want it. 

[Senzelian]

12 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Windows 11 doesn't even have a dark mode task manager

Already in the insider beta channel. Been running it for weeks. I hope it hits the live channel soon.

 

 

7 hours ago, StDragon said:

Ironic, isn't it? Wasn't the entire point of the telemetry was to collect UI usage statistics to help build a better OS more in tune with peoples real usage habits and efficiencies vs what's academically done in a lab environment? I mean, when your "focus group" is your entire consumer base, it's pretty hard to fuck that up.

Well....they succeeded in doing just that with Windows 11. Epic FAIL!

I have to disagree. I don't think they have fucked up anything in Windows 11 regarding the UI.

 

Compared to the mess that it was before in Windows 8 and 10, it finally makes sense again. And I'm very sure that the majority likes the changes aswell and that the changes reflect exactly the usage habits of them.

[jagdtigger]

13 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

I have to disagree. I don't think they have fucked up anything in Windows 11 regarding the UI.

Hm, how widespread exactly the actual use (a machine having it doesnt mean it gets used, actually quite the contrary) of touch screen? Yeah they botched it, again 3 times in a row....

[Quackers101]

3 year changes? as in faster to get you to a cloud windows system owned by microsoft and change everything into what other users dislike so much.

Also cutting off older versions faster, while trying to force you into these new systems. *looks at the old chrome OS laptops*

[Senzelian]

19 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Hm, how widespread exactly the actual use (a machine having it doesnt mean it gets used, actually quite the contrary) of touch screen? Yeah they botched it, again 3 times in a row....

what?

 

How widespread is the use of touch screens? I guess very widespread? I mean every phone has one.
On Windows? Probably not so widespread. It's not the primary input method for any Windows device.
I'm really confused, what are you trying to say?

[LargeMan]

I don't think many people will support this arrangement. Having to switch to a unfamiliar OS every 3 years or so would be troublesome for many people. People are gonna bully Microsoft on Twitter and make them do something else if they don't like it anyway. 

[GoodBytes]

51 minutes ago, LargeMan said:

I don't think many people will support this arrangement. Having to switch to a unfamiliar OS every 3 years or so would be troublesome for many people. People are gonna bully Microsoft on Twitter and make them do something else if they don't like it anyway. 

Wasn't an issue before. People complaining because the default background change, and make decisions from screenshot without actually using, is something Microsoft is used to.

 

Windows 7 was criticised for its OSX exact replica of the taskbar. People called Microsoft to return the old task bar, and mentioned how OSX task bar wasn't good to replicate. 

 

XP was criticised none stop for its unusable state, BSOD everywhere, and that Windows 2000 was a superior OS, despite the fact that XP WAS 2000 with a skin engine on top. The OS came out just 1 year after 2000. Both OS has identical updates, perfectly in sync for the longest time. Security and bug fixes. 

 

People complain of Win11, but it is a net improvement over Win10 in so many ways regardless of device type.

 

People want change, but don't like change.

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, Senzelian said:

what?

 

How widespread is the use of touch screens? I guess very widespread? I mean every phone has one.
On Windows? Probably not so widespread. It's not the primary input method for any Windows device.
I'm really confused, what are you trying to say?

Exactly that. Its pretty much a non-existent market, but they still make the OS with that in mind....

[Senzelian]

5 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Exactly that. Its pretty much a non-existent market, but they still make the OS with that in mind....

And what's the problem?
You do realize that Microsoft sells their Surface devices, which are fairly popular.

[jagdtigger]

20 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

And what's the problem?

Can you stop playing dumb? Using a touch interface with a keyboard and mice is a royal pain in the rear. (Guess what 99% of the user-base is using.)

 

22 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

You do realize that Microsoft sells their Surface devices

Device having touchscreen != used with touchscreen. I literally seen no-one using their 2in1 as a touch device outside of very niche use-cases.

[Doobeedoo]

Hmm, whatever. Really by now I though they'd switch to yearly model, with then less new stuff at once since they can't manage that from the get go though. Then again we don't know how they manage stuff. They definitely need more internal testers, but for me 10 and 11 were very solid really. Aside from some early on bugs and quirks, also some questionable UI decisions. Like making something take more clicks, look unintuitive or out of place. Launched programs/games from background taking focus automatically to foreground is one annoyance.

But yeah more QC polish and actually shipping finished features/UI stuff not fragmented would be great.

[Senzelian]

17 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Can you stop playing dumb? Using a touch interface with a keyboard and mice is a royal pain in the rear. (Guess what 99% of the user-base is using.)

Can you stop being ignorant?

Just because you have some nonsensical issues clicking on larger buttons with a mouse curser, cause that's really all it is, doesn't mean everyone else isn't capeable of controling a basic input device.

 

The fact that you ask for me to stop playing dumb shows the real problem: You can't wrap your head around someone being just fine with how things are. You're looking for something to complain about. Anything, as long as you can be mad about it. I literally work with hundreds of different Windows 10/11, MacOS, Android and iOS users every week and none of them ever go out of their way to complain about something so trivial. Which leads perfectly into your next ridiculous point:

 

17 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

I literally seen no-one using their 2in1 as a touch device outside of very niche use-cases.

You didn't see it? YOU DIDN'T SEE IT? That is your argument?

 

Here's a suggestion. The next time you're legitimately mad about something, just say: "I don't like X". It really goes a long way and I can then at least respond: "Fair enough" and not have to make a giant tantrum out of your dumb arguments.

 

[Ultraforce]

2 hours ago, LargeMan said:

I don't think many people will support this arrangement. Having to switch to a unfamiliar OS every 3 years or so would be troublesome for many people. People are gonna bully Microsoft on Twitter and make them do something else if they don't like it anyway. 

I think it would depend on how it's implemented most Linux distros have new Long Term Support versions every 2 years and while some can be particularly bad releases I don't think the users complain very much about it. Apple also nowadays releases a new OS pretty much every year. Though part of what makes it fine is not every OS release should be completely new and rocking the boat.

[starsmine]

43 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Can you stop playing dumb? Using a touch interface with a keyboard and mice is a royal pain in the rear. (Guess what 99% of the user-base is using.)

 

Device having touchscreen != used with touchscreen. I literally seen no-one using their 2in1 as a touch device outside of very niche use-cases.

convertable laptops are a huge market, what are you on about?

Your using your anicdotes as data is weird.

And not investing in making the touch screen experience better is the wrong move to make.
You dont go, "oh wow, the demand for better touch screen experience is there, but the experience is bad, so lets ignore it", you make it better.

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, Senzelian said:

Can you stop being ignorant?

Just because you have some nonsensical issues clicking on larger buttons with a mouse curser, cause that's really all it is, doesn't mean everyone else isn't capeable of controling a basic input device.

Look whose talking about ignorance, there is a freakin  reason why touch based devices have wildly different UI's from desktops and laptops that use kb and mouse. If you cant grasp why that is i wont waste my time on you.

 

 

2 hours ago, Senzelian said:

Here's a suggestion.

I have a better  suggestion. Go into mediamarkt/saturn/bestbuy/etc and look at laptops with touchscreens. It will be very enlightening how clean their screens are.... (Dismiss it all you want but it is a very good indicator. Ppl want to try out devices before buying and if there is a function they dont then they pretty much dont care for it.) If you want to live in your bubble where touch screen makes sense on windows then carry on, but dont waste my time with your dreamworld.

/EDIT

Oh and one other thing, you better scale back down your face. I think i mentioned quite a few time my distro hopper nature, meaning i wont be bothered by petty things you claim i make fuss about. Instead of looking down on everyone who rightly criticize MS for the useless amalgamation they call UI you should think it over why ppl still going back to the CP instead of the settings phone app.....