Windows 12 for 2024? Microsoft may switch back to a 3-year life cycle.

[Forbidden Wafer]

6 hours ago, Senzelian said:

 

It looks awful. The left menu instead of tabs is stupid.

[MartinTheActor]

Returning to the original topic, I do kind of think this is a major step backwards for nothing more than marketing purposes. Though, that step backwards started with Windows 11.

I loved the concept originally talked about for Windows 10 being the 'last version of Windows'. The development of Windows 11 makes the same mistake soooooo many services have made. Like Facebook, Twitter and most other social platforms using algorithms to show us what they suggest rather than what we want or need felt like it was being replicated in the Win11 start menu. Like it or not, most of the time these kind of 'platform knows best' viewpoints fail (for me personally). 

 

For all I'm not a fan of Apple as a company, there is one thing that I feel the get really right...their OS. I remember starting I think with macOS 7 or 8 and functionally Cheetah, Snow Leopard, Monteray, Big Sur have all felt, at least on the surface like cosmetic changes. Apple simply make it look prettier, add in some cool features while keeping the way the device is used pretty functionally similar. There isn't a huge learning curve across generations. Again, that's how I feel about the platform.

Meanwhile Microsoft has too often taken a glance at the likes of Google with ChromeOS, and Apple, and even android and gone 'we want some of that'. The problem is that although to learn to use each new version of Windows (perhaps with 8 & RT aside) is pretty trivial, that it appears so functionally different can immediately be off putting and reduce the incentive to upgrade especially for companies. Now, the start menu and program list is still there in Win11 of course and isn't really that different, but if *feels* different and that I honestly believe is enough to really change up people's impressions of the latest iteration of Windows.

When Windows 8 arrived on the very first surface device I genuinely thought it was pretty cool. It felt like something so radically different that maybe could have been Microsoft's answer to iPadOS. I wonder even if Microsoft had spun off the Win8 team into a specialist tablet/phone team if we could've seen something different. Ultimately though, I feel like users voted with their wallets and refused to upgrade because they felt alienated by losing all that was familiar. 

Of course, if we see a more Android or iOS type release cycle for Windows, that might be interesting...but I'd argue only if that cycle remembers to keep things as familiar as they can. At the same time, I feel like Microsoft need to actually look at what Apple are doing if they really want to learn from their competitors. There is arguably a reason why so few of Apple's Laptop and Desktop variants have touchscreen (actually now I say that...do any?), which is why I wish they'd spun off a team into a tablet/phone ecosystem back when they stood a chance. 

In summary though, I really wish Microsoft had stayed with Windows 10 as the last version of Windows. Cyclically updating for security and design would have been pretty amazing. Windows 11 though just missed the mark and I feel like all this news opens the door to is even more missed steps from a company that just needs to focus what it does and how it does it. That could just be me though.

[KaitouX]

3 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

People want change, but don't like change.

People want meaningful changes, not change for the sake of change.

[GoodBytes]

1 minute ago, KaitouX said:

People want meaningful changes, not change for the sake of change.

They are meaningful changes. Give me an example that it isn't?

 

[Senzelian]

53 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Look whose talking about ignorance, there is a freakin  reason why touch based devices have wildly different UI's from desktops and laptops that use kb and mouse. If you cant grasp why that is i wont waste my time on you.

That's the exact reason why Microsoft has offered a tablet view mode within Windows since Windows 8 specifically for devices that lack additional input methods.

The fact that you don't understand the difference between a device that is limited to touch-input only and a device that primarily offers keyboard and mouse/trackpad inputs, but offers touch inputs as an addition, shows how ignorant you are. So yes, I am talking about ignorance for a good reason.

 

53 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

I have a better  suggestion. Go into mediamarkt/saturn/bestbuy/etc and look at laptops with touchscreens. It will be very enlightening how clean their screens are.... (Dismiss it all you want but it is a very good indicator. Ppl want to try out devices before buying and if there is a function they dont then they pretty much dont care for it.) If you want to live in your bubble where touch screen makes sense on windows then carry on, but dont waste my time with your dreamworld.

 

I will simply assume that the reason these devices are not full of fingerprints, is not because they are regularly cleaned and instead is because people are not using them, just so it won't get too complicated for you.

 

I've worked in retail for many years and have studied customer behavior, specifically around tech (i.e. smartphones, laptops, speakers, TVs, ...) and you always see the exact same thing happening when people are interested in a device: Secondary functions are often either ignored or simply forgotten about. How many people test the webcam of a laptop at the store? How many people check out the ports of a TV or the size of the VESA mount? How many people care about the accessories that come with a smartphone? It's only after the purchase that they are reminded: "Oh the wall mount for my TV doesn't fit." "Oh I forgot to buy a case for the phone". "Oh I hope this webcam works out well in the next Zoom meeting". 

 

It's the same with touchscreens. It's a secondary function for many people, but people that used one tend to like them and simply expect them to work like they do on any other device. It's something no one wants to think about. It's like the quality of a trackpad. It has to work! No one goes around and tests touchscreens on laptops.

 

I personally use mine on my Lenovo sometimes and I am glad that Microsoft has imporved the user experience with them, even tho most of the time I use a mouse/trackpad.

 

And I also know someone that uses the touchscreen more than their mouse on their Lenovo. It's weird, I admit that, but let her have her touchscreen and a decent experience. It just makes sense!

 

 

 

Edit: Btw. They clean them! Holy shit. I know you haven't seen it, so it can't exist in your world.

 

53 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Oh and one other thing, you better scale back down your face. I think i mentioned quite a few time my distro hopper nature, meaning i wont be bothered by petty things you claim i make fuss about. Instead of looking down on everyone who rightly criticize MS for the useless amalgamation they call UI you should think it over why ppl still going back to the CP instead of the settings phone app.....

1. I don't know who you even are and I don't care. Just like no one cares about me on this forum. Stop pretending to be famous.

2. The reason people use the control panel, is because some of the functions weren't yet ported over to the Windows 10 settings and because Windows 10's UI was in some regards actually rather bad, especially when it came down to hidden links to certain settings.

3. I have had plenty of people, especially in my own IT team (consisting out of more than 60 employees), that use the new settings UI in Windows 11 now instead of the control panel. 

 

Now...

Do you continue to double down on your bullshit?

It's hard to beat the "I don't know any senseable arguments, so I'll mark his post as funny, so he thinks his post is laughable" approach, but I'm sure you'll find a way to ride yourself further into the ground. Thanks for the reaction btw.

 

 

(Edit: One last way to beat your nonsense is to claim you won't answer anymore, because it's wasting your time, especially after reading only half of my post.)

[porina]

3 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

People want change, but don't like change.

Could be argued there's three parts to this:

• What users think they want
• What users actually want but may not know yet
• What OS providers think people want

In a perfect world the three will overlap well. First two aren't the same because there will be cases where people don't know they want something because they never thought of the new ideas yet. 

 

I think I know what I want, and MS is quite divergent from that. However, they are still less divergent than other desktop OSes so it is the least worst choice.

 

I do wonder, how many people who said they'll never leave Win7 are still using Win7 on a daily driver? While I haven't made the jump myself from 10 to 11 yet, I know I have time so it isn't day urgent. I haven't had a good enough reason to go 11 yet, and don't need to live on the software cutting edge.

[Quackers101]

4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

People complain of Win11, but it is a net improvement over Win10 in so many ways regardless of device type.

People want change, but don't like change.

people want some change (not "massive" ones), yes there is fun features with win11 that should have been long in windows 10 or 7. But the other additions of changes? how they add more malicious content or policy, or say that very recent hardware that doesn't support their view as "not compatible with their OS".

[Guest]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

They are meaningful changes. Give me an example that it isn't?

 

Simple example, TPM mandatory.

 

[darknessblade]

Lets hope Microsoft fixes everything that people hate about windows 11.

Like:

 

-being unable to move the taskbar without a program like explorer patcher.

-splitting the network/audio settings to separate icons

- bring back the original control panel to its former glory [as they are trying to break it down into nothingness]. or at least add a option to have multiple settings tabs open.

- TPM requirement for every system.

-Remove all bloatware that you get shoved trough your throat upon first boot.

-Removal of all "suggested" Apps/ADS/sections in windows [taskbar, start menu, explorer, etc]

[KaitouX]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

They are meaningful changes. Give me an example that it isn't?

 

Removing customization options from the taskbar? Hiding options from the context menu? Forcing the use of online accounts/hiding the option to use local accounts?

[pas008]

I never understood complaints about Windows versions 

But I been classic/open shell user pretty much since I discovered it many moons ago but after awhile I get use to the os 

I enjoyed 8 

Only Windows I had issues with was ME because lack of drivers

 

 

[demonix00]

The only real question should be What hardware is microsoft going to make obsolete with windows 12?

[Mihle]

6 hours ago, KaitouX said:

People want meaningful changes, not change for the sake of change.

There can be meaningful changes plenty of people don't want because they don't care about them, while they want changes that they think is meaningful but only are to very few people. 

 

(General statement, not windows spesifc, it's just that things aren't as simple as your sentence make it sound)

[pas008]

58 minutes ago, demonix00 said:

The only real question should be What hardware is microsoft going to make obsolete with windows 12?

Good people need to recycle shit lol kidding

Why upgrade to newer os if you are fine with what you have?

 

If you want newest stuff you should have it all around though we do I work all our devices already

 

 

[starsmine]

9 hours ago, Guest 5150 said:

Simple example, TPM mandatory.

 

One of the big reasons for an OS revision is for security. 
Trusted Platform Module is part of that deal. Sorry, not sorry?

This feels like one of those "I'm no idiot, I don't need a warning/protection" as that idiot does exactly what the warning/protection tells them not to do and hurts themselves over it, kind of situations.

People mad about hardware being "obsolete" don't understand the concept of technical debt. You can still run on unsupported systems, you just dont have MS commiting themselves to fixing any rare bug that might show up on it. Like my zen 1 laptop with tpm, in all likely hood, anything that does show up will be fixed as zen+ is supported.
Hell My sandybridge desktop doesnt even technically meet min requirements for windows 10. its literally a non issue.

Yes windows has issues, but Im always floored at people who makes complaints about these kinds of issues/non-issues.

Honestly windows 10 being the last windows was always a bad idea, and something I never believed. because depreciated API calls will happen. eventually a dead piece of critical software using an unsecure/depreciated feature that was removed would have to be VMed to run. Imagine explaining that to a user, that their version of windows 10 wont run a windows 10 application because of reasons. Both windows 10 creator updates are no longer maintained.

Most changes to an OS are WAY under the hood, so people claiming there are not meaningful changes to the NT kernel because the look and feel is what they see are also just wrong. Like the most recent windows 10 update gave you GPU compute for WSL, which almost none of us here would even use, and gave windows support for wifi 6e, which many users here would use.

Windows 10 will be getting support though june 13 2023 at a minimum, and a lot longer in reality as Education and enterprise will go through june 2024. None of you guys are in a rush to upgrade windows.

[Elijah Kamski]

I have an idea to sort out the issue of those wanting LTS stuff and "modern" stuff.

Windows 10
Windows 11
Windows 12
Windows 12 X
Windows 12 X Pro
Windows 12 X Pro+
Windows 12 X Pro+ Ultra

Yes, basically different versions of the same OS XD

I know we already have it, but it's not really different different, they just restrict basic features, such as the differences between Home, Edu and Pro.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, starsmine said:

One of the big reasons for an OS revision is for security. 
Trusted Platform Module is part of that deal. Sorry, not sorry?

This feels like one of those "I'm no idiot, I don't need a warning/protection" as that idiot does exactly what the warning/protection tells them not to do and hurts themselves over it, kind of situations.

People mad about hardware being "obsolete" don't understand the concept of technical debt. You can still run on unsupported systems, you just dont have MS commiting themselves to fixing any rare bug that might show up on it. Like my zen 1 laptop with tpm, in all likely hood, anything that does show up will be fixed as zen+ is supported.
Hell My sandybridge desktop doesnt even technically meet min requirements for windows 10. its literally a non issue.

Yes windows has issues, but Im always floored at people who makes complaints about these kinds of issues/non-issues.

Honestly windows 10 being the last windows was always a bad idea, and something I never believed. because depreciated API calls will happen. eventually a dead piece of critical software using an unsecure/depreciated feature that was removed would have to be VMed to run. Imagine explaining that to a user, that their version of windows 10 wont run a windows 10 application because of reasons. Both windows 10 creator updates are no longer maintained.

Most changes to an OS are WAY under the hood, so people claiming there are not meaningful changes to the NT kernel because the look and feel is what they see are also just wrong. Like the most recent windows 10 update gave you GPU compute for WSL, which almost none of us here would even use, and gave windows support for wifi 6e, which many users here would use.

Windows 10 will be getting support though june 13 2023 at a minimum, and a lot longer in reality as Education and enterprise will go through june 2024. None of you guys are in a rush to upgrade windows.

That's the most bullshit answer in the world.

 

You've always had the choice for TPM. It's been on boards is far back as I care to try and recall.

 

Small time scammers get grandma through email. Not hacking the windows sub system. There's no money in all that work to back door a home users windows installation to view some family photos. 

 

OS changes?

 

Well since the Twunk32 system folder is still relevant today, I'd say it's about making money. 

 

You can't make more money If you don't release new products.

 

TPM ties the OS to the hardware. Your board fails while using TPM, throw your installation in the trash. 

[wanderingfool2]

16 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

People complain of Win11, but it is a net improvement over Win10 in so many ways regardless of device type.

Like what?  I honestly have been daily driving Win 11 for about 8 months now.  I still hate it compared to Win 10 because of the half completeness behind it.

 

The fact is I'm way more productive on Win 10 compared to Win 11 because they removed very handy features...the biggest being you can't easily drag files into other programs (that are minimized).  The fact that I have to alt-tab to open the window, instead of dragging over the task-bar is just crazy.  They also released it with so many annoying little bugs, and the explorer right-click menu annoys me because I now have to click the show more options.

[GoodBytes]

On 7/16/2022 at 1:38 PM, Guest 5150 said:

Simple example, TPM mandatory.

TPM requirement is a none issue for most people. Microsoft has required OEMs that they include TPM 2.0 support.

You are mad, because you have made a poor purchase decision in acquiring a from a DIY motherboard manufacture a product that didn't include/test dTPM/fTPM.

You should be angry at them, not Microsoft.

 

Microsoft told OEMs, you want Windows License, put that in, it will be a requirement in future version of WIndows, while motherboard manufacture, who don't need to buy a license of Windows, you do, went: "Later it will be a requirement.... $$$$ Alright boys! Let's not put it in, and force customers to upgrade later!!!! LOLz!".

 

You should also push reviewers to test TPM from CPUs and motherboard when they review a motherboard. On your way, also tell them to include boot time, how good the BIOS recovery from failure state (failed updates), does it work? Seems not so for a few. Lastly, they test the performance of added controllers (extra SATA, USB, for example). I think the world will be a better place, then.... as no one reviews this shit (including GPU boot time), well, manufacture won't care, despite the board price. 

[GoodBytes]

12 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The fact is I'm way more productive on Win 10 compared to Win 11 because they removed very handy features...the biggest being you can't easily drag files into other programs (that are minimized). 

True, but good news, WIndows 12 could fix that with frequent updates, and not have people wait a full year for the update. It was added for Insiders a few months after Windows 11 was released. Sadly, people have to wait to get it.

 

12 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

They also released it with so many annoying little bugs, and the explorer right-click menu annoys me because I now have to click the show more options.

For what? I know some options were removed, but you are not installing .inf files daily.

As for third-party programs, then that is up to them to move their ass, and update to the new API. They won't do it, unless you don't complain about it, to them.

 

[Forbidden Wafer]

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

As for third-party programs, then that is up to them to move their ass, and update to the new API. They won't do it, unless you don't complain about it, to them.

>Have a working API
>Break it on purpose for no good reason
>Do not provide a workaround, which doesn't sound hard at all nor requires all applications from being modified and updated

 

As an OSS maintainer, this bothers me quite a lot.

[GoodBytes]

5 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

>Have a working API
>Break it on purpose for no good reason
>Do not provide a workaround, which doesn't sound hard at all nor requires all applications from being modified and updated

 

As an OSS maintainer, this bothers me quite a lot.

It was broken before. This very forum has many threads of people having issues with the right-click menu taking time to load or crashing explorer. It needed to be changed. 

[Forbidden Wafer]

12 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

It was broken before. This very forum has many threads of people having issues with the right-click menu taking time to load or crashing explorer. It needed to be changed. 

The implementation, sure. How 3rd-party software registers additional entries? Not really.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

TPM requirement is a none issue for most people. Microsoft has required OEMs that they include TPM 2.0 support.

You are mad, because you have made a poor purchase decision in acquiring a from a DIY motherboard manufacture a product that didn't include/test dTPM/fTPM.

You should be angry at them, not Microsoft.

 

Microsoft told OEMs, you want Windows License, put that in, it will be a requirement in future version of WIndows, while motherboard manufacture, who don't need to buy a license of Windows, you do, went: "Later it will be a requirement.... $$$$ Alright boys! Let's not put it in, and force customers to upgrade later!!!! LOLz!".

 

You should also push reviewers to test TPM from CPUs and motherboard when they review a motherboard, tell them to include boot times, BIOS recovery from failure state (failed updates), any extra controller added performance delivery (extra SATA, USB, for example), and I think the world will be a better place.... as no one reviews this shit (including GPU boot time), well, manufacture won't care, despite the board price.  The world would be a better place.

 

Fast boot times happened as far back as Windows XP, and that was done on spinners. TPM was also available and NOBODY has ever needed to use TPM.

 

Secondly, not an issue for most users is super inaccurate. Gamers mostly, with a thread titled "fTPM causes stuttering" is very many, just in this forum alone.

 

 

Gamers don't want stutter, Gamers don't want (or need) fTPM. 

 

You wanted an example, I'm only trying to help!

[starsmine]

16 minutes ago, Guest 5150 said:

Fast boot times happened as far back as Windows XP, and that was done on spinners. TPM was also available and NOBODY has ever needed to use TPM.

 

Secondly, not an issue for most users is super inaccurate. Gamers mostly, with a thread titled "fTPM causes stuttering" is very many, just in this forum alone.

 

 

Gamers don't want stutter, Gamers don't want (or need) fTPM. 

 

You wanted an example, I'm only trying to help!

Car Airbags were available in the 50s, airbags were never an issue until mandated by law in the 80s.... Nobody ever needed to use Airbags. 

fTPM bug causing stuttering was a short term issue. Its fixed, its literally a non issue now. update your bios.

Quote

Update: Affected PCs will require a motherboard system BIOS (sBIOS) update containing enhanced modules for fTPM interaction with SPIROM. AMD expects that flashable customer sBIOS files to be available starting in early May, 2022. Exact BIOS availability timing for a specific motherboard depends on the testing and integration schedule of your manufacturer. Flashable updates for motherboards will be based on AMD AGESA 1207 (or newer).

https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-410

This is partially why it wasnt mandated by the OS until windows 11, so manufactures could get all the bugs out, some slipped through, oh no, the horror.

As for replacing your OS when you swap out the motherboard that people are claiming, thats not really true, as again, my zen 1 laptop with mediocre support cause who fucking bought zen 1 laptops, mobo blew itself up and I just swapped the motherboard, and just reinstalled windows 10 edu that was on it from before key still works. Back up your data, hell unless you used bitlocker, you can do that backup after the motherboard kills itself, just plug in the old SSD/HDD into a different PC. Or even if you do use encryption, you just remember your password to decrypt it.
TPM 2.0 was on because its REQUIRED to on windows 10 with windows hello turned on. Thats literally how windows hello functions.