In the US, life cycle emissions for EVs are 60-68% lower than gasoline.

[bmx6454]

the other issue ev's have is how bad for the environment, and the miners/worker's health, it is to get lithium and make the batteries. producing batteries that aren't horrible for the environment to make, and won't cost half(or more) of the car's value to replace is something i hope they figure out how to overcome in the near future. also, i know people have mixed opinions on this, but if nuclear power was made more of a priority, that would massively decrease the carbon footprint to charge these, and overall for all power production. to be clear, i am a big fan of ev's, i just think people make it into a political thing, and ignore/forget the hurdles.

[Master Delta Chief]

1 hour ago, hollyh88 said:

and yes. the environment can get my middlefinger. especially since countries expect my tiny country of the netherlands to be leading the pack in climate neutrality. f that. 

Enjoy your country being almost underwater in the next few years 

[Taf the Ghost]

1 minute ago, adarw said:

yea lol but until its green and charges faster i dont think many people want one, espicaly if they go on long trips

Pure Battery EVs are only useful for households with covered parking spaces (can be closed or not, but generally needs to be covered). Which really limits the actual population of buyers. This is why the EVs we're seeing are targeted at mid-sized Luxury Car Buyers. It's the only market it makes sense.

 

They're also the market that's willing to take on a new pet along with a car. Because that's basically what you're buying if you don't live really close to all of your car trip destinations. You have to manage the car in a very different way from a normal ICE one.

 

Those are the real problems with the cars. The current state of the Technology is just that way.

[adarw]

2 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Pure Battery EVs are only useful for households with covered parking spaces (can be closed or not, but generally needs to be covered). Which really limits the actual population of buyers. This is why the EVs we're seeing are targeted at mid-sized Luxury Car Buyers. It's the only market it makes sense.

 

They're also the market that's willing to take on a new pet along with a car. Because that's basically what you're buying if you don't live really close to all of your car trip destinations. You have to manage the car in a very different way from a normal ICE one.

 

Those are the real problems with the cars. The current state of the Technology is just that way.

yea its quite sad tbh

[Taf the Ghost]

45 minutes ago, adarw said:

yea its quite sad tbh

The right technology properly applied is wonderfully useful, but Battery EVs are stuck in the space where it's not really about the technology "as is". It's about what the Technology says about the person to others. I love Bleeding Edge/Early Adopter stuff a lot more than most people, but you can't overcome Physics and Current Technology by wishing it wasn't the way it is. Battery EVs have a useful role, but they're not an ICE car replacement. Attempting to fit a square peg in a round hole because it makes you feel good about yourself isn't the technology's fault. 

[Zodiark1593]

45 minutes ago, adarw said:

gas and hydro are both flammable, why would someone be afraid of one thing but not the other   

Gasoline needs to vaporize before it can ignite. It takes heat to make things really get out of hand. Hydrogen is a gas at atmospheric pressure, and so is pretty much ready to party right away. The Hindenburg is a pretty striking example. 

[leadeater]

56 minutes ago, x3x53530 said:

If they want to get people on board with electrics

It's actually a really easy sell, forget every argument and just use clean air in cities. The health benefits alone completely sell it, what power is used for generation almost becomes irrelevant at that point.

 

People will argue for days about the truth behind the environmental benefits, really hard to argue against do you want to breath either; Clean air or Dirty air.

[adarw]

37 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Gasoline needs to vaporize before it can ignite. It takes heat to make things really get out of hand. Hydrogen is a gas at atmospheric pressure, and so is pretty much ready to party right away. The Hindenburg is a pretty striking example. 

true but safty is much better than what it was when the hindberg happend

[Taf the Ghost]

34 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It's actually a really easy sell, forget every argument and just use clean air in cities. The health benefits alone completely sell it, what power is used for generation almost becomes irrelevant at that point.

 

People will argue for days about the truth behind the environmental benefits, really hard to argue against do you want to breath either; Clean air or Dirty air.

The local air benefits in large cities are an actual, real utility. The problem is that a lot of cars in & around cities are simply not in a place where a Battery EV would be viable. It's part of why the sidelining of Gas-Electric Hybrids has been unfortunate. Those would really help in a lot of places.

[BigDamn]

This chart is a bit too simplified. The benefits of a fully electrical vehicle vary by state, depending on that states primary source of energy (coal, nuclear, renewable, etc). This isn't to say that a standard ICEV is better for the environment, rather, that hybrids are sometimes the better choice in states such as West Virginia which heavily depend on coal power.

[Mr. Smiley]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

It's actually a really easy sell, forget every argument and just use clean air in cities. The health benefits alone completely sell it, what power is used for generation almost becomes irrelevant at that point.

 

People will argue for days about the truth behind the environmental benefits, really hard to argue against do you want to breath either; Clean air or Dirty air.

That is a sound argument until you have to power all those EV's. Current large cities can't even maintain the power grid now when it is too hot or too cold outside. How are they going go manage an all EV populous? Furthermore, what are you going to do about all the lower income people? Do you expect all of those people to just up and buy a brand new EV when they are barely scrapping by to begin with? Or what about all the people who live in an apartment complex? They don't have the opportunity to charge at home. 

 

And that doesn't take into account the fact that charging stations are not everywhere. Out in the western US you can easily drive 500 miles in a day to some super remote places. What are you going to do when you are in the middle of the rockies on a dirt road 200 miles from home and have to recharge to get back?

 

An all EV populous sounds great in theory, but doesn't work all that well in practice at the moment. 

[poochyena]

3 hours ago, hollyh88 said:

Imagine if all of europe all of the sudden went EV. there wouldnt be enough power to supply everything and we would have a dark age.

So EVs are bad because a completely unrealistic theoretical thing you just made up from nothing?

3 hours ago, hollyh88 said:

oh and lets not forget the roooooows of people needing to wait to charge their car. 

Why would there be rows of people needing to wait to charge their car? 99% of people would just be charging at their home or workplace.

3 hours ago, hollyh88 said:

and yes. the environment can get my middlefinger.

you literally live in the enviroment, you are hurting yourself.

3 hours ago, Senzelian said:

With growing numbers in electric cars, the need for more chargers outside of homes will grow as well.

Yes, but not as much as the demand would grow with hydrogen as much of the electric infrastructure is already there and people can just charge at home or work.

3 hours ago, Senzelian said:

I just found a masters thesis showing the necessary work that needs to be done to convert all gas stations at the A96 (Autobahn 96 (highway)) to electric charging stations.

Why on earth would you ever do that? Thats a god-awful idea and completely unnecessary.

2 hours ago, adarw said:

yea lol but until its green and charges faster i dont think many people want one, espicaly if they go on long trips

but why not? I just can't comprehend why anyone actually prefers filling up at a gas stations than.... not doing that and just plugging up at home. And whats with the long trips thing? Do you go on spontaneous 200+ mile road trips, driving the whole way nonstop? I just don't understand this argument and I see it a lot. It reminds me of those home buying shows where people say they want a big yard to be able to entertain 20+ guests... but how often, if ever, is that really happening?

2 hours ago, bmx6454 said:

the other issue ev's have is how bad for the environment, and the miners/worker's health, it is to get lithium and make the batteries.

and gas production is harms everyone on earth. That is far worse than battery mining.

 

2 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Pure Battery EVs are only useful for households with covered parking spaces (can be closed or not, but generally needs to be covered). Which really limits the actual population of buyers.

82.8 million live in an owner-occupied household in the United States, and then there are the many more people who work places that could easily install charging stations. The people who own a car and don't have a place to charge it at home or during work isn't a % amount of people.

2 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Because that's basically what you're buying if you don't live really close to all of your car trip destinations.

"really close"? Really? Every new EV has a range of 200+ miles. Thats easily 3+ hours of driving I wouldn't say somewhere over an hour away is really close.

[bmx6454]

Just now, poochyena said:

and gas production is harms everyone on earth. That is far worse than battery mining.

whats your point? I'm not comparing the two, fossil's fuel's are obviously bad for the environment, nobody(with a brain) argues this. my argument isn't: "lithium mining is bad, so screw the whole thing and keep fossil fuels". all i am saying is that there are major hurdles that need to be fixed going forward, and many companies are already hard at work trying to solve them. a lot(not all) of people claim that ev's are 10000% green, when this is very far from the case. but with the future comes innovation, and with that, hopefully far far cleaner ev's.. take a chill pill and actually read the whole comment next time, bro.

[poochyena]

44 minutes ago, BigDamn said:

This chart is a bit too simplified. The benefits of a fully electrical vehicle vary by state, depending on that states primary source of energy (coal, nuclear, renewable, etc).

the grid isn't divided up by states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_power_transmission_grid

7 minutes ago, Mr. Smiley said:

Furthermore, what are you going to do about all the lower income people? Do you expect all of those people to just up and buy a brand new EV when they are barely scrapping by to begin with?

Literally no one expects this. This is about new vehicles, not used vehicles. Very old vehicles though, there have been government programs to buy very old cars in the past and had a lot of success.

8 minutes ago, Mr. Smiley said:

Out in the western US you can easily drive 500 miles in a day to some super remote places.

Oh no, I can't drive 500 miles in the western US in a single day driving non-stop. That is definitely a thing most americans regularly do and sure will interrupt many peoples lives!

[Guest]

It would be neat if I could select the battery size for my needs. 

 

I live 8 minutes from work by vehicle for example. If I could reduce the cost of the vehicle significantly with having a smaller battery installed, I will also boost my power to weight ratio as well. Which is usually pretty good for economy having some weight reduction. 

 

Shave off like 5-10K from the selling price, and at least have the car look half way decent instead of some futuristic alien egg pod that can seat a person and a half..... lol.

 

I literally could get away with 100 mile range battery. This reduction of cost would make EV very appealing IMO.

 

 

[Guest]

EV is neat maintenance free as well. No fluids to check. No fuel injection systems, no oil for lubrication, no anti-freeze, no power steering fluids.... Nothing. Just check your tire pressure on the HUD. 

[Hullwood2]

4 hours ago, poochyena said:

Summary

 

Electric cars produce significant less green house emissions compared to gasoline cars when factoring in everything from building the car to its life time run time.

 

Quotes

 

My thoughts

Finally a simple to understand article and graph that shows new electric cars are better than new gasoline cars that I can point to to people who think EVs are over-hyped. Even if EVs got all their electricity from coal power plants, it would be more efficient than gasoline cars. There is a reason everyone doesn't power their homes with gas generators. As we add more green power to the power grid, and as more people add solar to their homes, charging their cars at home, the fewer emissions there will be. Buying a new gas car in 2021, outside of very niche applications where you regularly drive 200+ miles a day, is a mistake.

 

Sources

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/electric-cars-have-much-lower-life-cycle-emissions-new-study-confirms/

Yes they may be more efficient but that's not really the reason people think electric cars are overhyped. They think they're overhyped because they are so much more expensive and most people worry about other things than electrifying right away. People got kids, jobs, people are living paycheck to paycheck yet all we worry about is getting everyone electric so fast. I believe electric is the future but not the 5-10 year future people keep trying to prophesize. Electric will come when it gets feasible for the average person to buy. And about solar panels, solar panels are a decent idea for maybe charging your car but solar probably wont be the future in terms of mass power production. Nuclear power is far more cost effective and space efficient and is one of the best ways to make the power grid clean.

[Taf the Ghost]

@poochyena

 

I'd actually advise using the Single Dwelling numbers more than Owner-Occupied. An EV plug can be installed in most rentals. That being said, the number of people that actually have the functional space for an EV is a whole lot smaller. One of the fun parts about being a Bleeding Edge-type is I did the analysis on my own utility & viability for a EV at least a decade ago. The problems are still the same as they've always been: while you can make it work without an ideal setup, you really need a 3 car garage. If you don't have that, you've generally removed a significant amount of storage and workshop capacity in your house, necessitating a Shed of some form.

 

It also ties into my point about the Range and the EV is basically a new pet. If you don't live really close to normal travel cycle, you have to managing the car's battery on a daily basis. A lot of people are not interested in that aspect of Battery EVs, and it's a regular reason why people get out of them.

[Taf the Ghost]

16 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

EV is neat maintenance free as well. No fluids to check. No fuel injection systems, no oil for lubrication, no anti-freeze, no power steering fluids.... Nothing. Just check your tire pressure on the HUD. 

I can't quite tell if this is trolling, ignorance or a good joke.

[xtroria]

IMO, the true future is in solar tech.

 

You can make EV extremely sustainable by promoting solar panels for housing in places like california, nevada and arizona.

 

I would legit support a legislation requiring houses above certain areas and price to have solar panels installed. Because people who buy them can afford the additional price and big houses generally use so much electricity, they should reduce their carbon footprint.

[Forbidden Wafer]

Not accounting for recycling of batteries... a.k.a. is just another scam.

 

[poochyena]

12 minutes ago, Hullwood2 said:

People got kids, jobs, people are living paycheck to paycheck yet all we worry about is getting everyone electric so fast.

This is about new cars, I don't think people living paycheck to paycheck are buying new cars. Also, the most popular car type right now is SUVs, which are much more expensive than regular cars, so people aren't too price sensitive when it comes to cars, since, if they were... they wouldn't be buying new anyways.

 

3 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

you really need a 3 car garage. If you don't have that, you've generally removed a significant amount of storage and workshop capacity in your house

what do you mean? A charger doesn't take up THAT much space

 

[ARikozuM]

4 hours ago, BuckGup said:

INB4 I aint never drive no prius cuz it don't make the sound of my CUMMINS 12v dip dip feller 

At least with the Prius I can Flintstone that sh#t when there's a gas shortage. 

 

Spoiler

YABBA DABBA MOTHERF#CKERS!

  

3 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Not accounting for recycling of car nor batteries... a.k.a. is just another scam.

...

 

There are literal piles of cars because no one wants to recycle them... 

 

[da na]

4 hours ago, Senzelian said:

engine sounds are fun. fite me

I will fight anyone who disagrees alongside you...

[Blademaster91]

This graph doesn't account for electricity use and if it's clean electricity produced by wind or solar, or electricity produced by coal or gas that isn't any cleaner than driving a gasoline vehicle.

And I think the most eco friendly thing you can do is keep your ICE vehicle running, instead of throwing it away for an EV that requires a lot of energy to manufacture, and the mining it takes to make lithium ion batteries.