I stopped playing a Pay to Win game 4 years ago. Here's how my life changed.

[Sarra]

So, a lot of people complain about loot boxes, broken game launches, predatory practices, etc. What some people don't talk about is the fact that loot boxes, predatory practices, and broken games have been a problem for a lot longer than just the last 4-5 years...

 

Anyway. I started playing a game back in 2006. Chinese MMORPG, made to compete with WoW, though... It was free to play, vs subscription, which is why I got into it. The game started out innocuous enough, the pay shop was... Empty in 2006 and in 2007, they added flying mounts. I actually bought one of the very very first ones. I think I spent $20 on it? Yeah, those were the 'good old days'. Soon, there were $100 mounts, and fashion galore in the pay shop.

 

Then, in 2008, they added "packs". IE, loot boxes. You buy them from the shop, and open them. Simple. Except, unlike modern games *coughFIFAcough*, the drop chances for desirable stuff was much, much lower. One particular item had a 0.012% drop chance. They "improved" this to 0.001% drop chance, and later on, added some items with a 0.000015% drop chance. How did we 'know' the drop chances? The game's licensee didn't tell us, but someone in China got ahold of server config files and code, and found the drop chances there.

 

This isn't even the worst part. In 2009, they added Pay to Win. If you had no life, you could grind the 'endgame' gear, but it took one person roughly 9 months of doing shady and questionable stuff to get his gear 'for free'. He documented it. If you just wanted to pay for it, you had to spend roughly $500, starting at 0, to get it.  Then, the Chinese company realized that this was too cheap, so they tripled the price. So, 'endgame' gear was $1,500. Then, to actually max the gear out, you had to gamble on a refining system that sorta worked, or you had to spend another $2,000-$4,000, depending on what exact stats you were going for.

 

In 2010, they added 'recast'. This costs $1,500 for the base gear, then another $500 to upgrade it, then $2-4k to finish it.

 

The non-recast gear was competitive with free gear. The 'grind' gear could be made strong enough that a player using it could kill a pay to win player in PVP, provided they had any skill. The recast gear removed that... It was now OP enough that you had to use pay to win gear in PVP, or you weren't viable.

 

And then, in 2012, they added 'third cast'.

 

And in 2014, an entire new set of gear on top of your armor and weapon.

 

In 2015, I decided that I wanted to win. So, I spent roughly $10,000 on gear for three characters. And I still didn't have a 'guaranteed oneshot' build, when I was done, because they added in another set of gear to get... Off sale, going from level 1, it would cost roughly $7,000 to get a fully 'pay to win' build completed, plus grinding for many hours for some stuff you couldn't actually buy...

 

In 2017, I quit that game. Not like 'I'm taking a break', but "uninstalled, f*** this, I'm not coming back".

 

And for the last 4 years, not once have I overdrawn my credit card. I haven't been late on rent. My cell phone bill has been paid on time. I haven't had to dip into my credit card to pay for my car insurance. I've purchased two vehicles, with cash, no loan. I have been able to build a brand new PC (minus the GPU), upgrade my monitor, and plan on a second PC. I was able to afford emergency car repairs without having to sacrifice money earmarked for other things.

 

I am so, very glad I gave up on that game. It wasn't just sucking my wallet dry, but it was destroying my soul.

[Moonzy]

I try not to get too invested in a mobile game anymore after my last one

 

I legit felt a weight off my shoulder when I quit it, decided to stop giving a damn about dailies, wonder if you felt the same

[The1Dickens]

22 minutes ago, Sarra said:

So, a lot of people complain about loot boxes, broken game launches, predatory practices, etc. What some people don't talk about is the fact that loot boxes, predatory practices, and broken games have been a problem for a lot longer than just the last 4-5 years...

 

Anyway. I started playing a game back in 2006. Chinese MMORPG, made to compete with WoW, though... It was free to play, vs subscription, which is why I got into it. The game started out innocuous enough, the pay shop was... Empty in 2006 and in 2007, they added flying mounts. I actually bought one of the very very first ones. I think I spent $20 on it? Yeah, those were the 'good old days'. Soon, there were $100 mounts, and fashion galore in the pay shop.

 

Then, in 2008, they added "packs". IE, loot boxes. You buy them from the shop, and open them. Simple. Except, unlike modern games *coughFIFAcough*, the drop chances for desirable stuff was much, much lower. One particular item had a 0.012% drop chance. They "improved" this to 0.001% drop chance, and later on, added some items with a 0.000015% drop chance. How did we 'know' the drop chances? The game's licensee didn't tell us, but someone in China got ahold of server config files and code, and found the drop chances there.

 

This isn't even the worst part. In 2009, they added Pay to Win. If you had no life, you could grind the 'endgame' gear, but it took one person roughly 9 months of doing shady and questionable stuff to get his gear 'for free'. He documented it. If you just wanted to pay for it, you had to spend roughly $500, starting at 0, to get it.  Then, the Chinese company realized that this was too cheap, so they tripled the price. So, 'endgame' gear was $1,500. Then, to actually max the gear out, you had to gamble on a refining system that sorta worked, or you had to spend another $2,000-$4,000, depending on what exact stats you were going for.

 

In 2010, they added 'recast'. This costs $1,500 for the base gear, then another $500 to upgrade it, then $2-4k to finish it.

 

The non-recast gear was competitive with free gear. The 'grind' gear could be made strong enough that a player using it could kill a pay to win player in PVP, provided they had any skill. The recast gear removed that... It was now OP enough that you had to use pay to win gear in PVP, or you weren't viable.

 

And then, in 2012, they added 'third cast'.

 

And in 2014, an entire new set of gear on top of your armor and weapon.

 

In 2015, I decided that I wanted to win. So, I spent roughly $10,000 on gear for three characters. And I still didn't have a 'guaranteed oneshot' build, when I was done, because they added in another set of gear to get... Off sale, going from level 1, it would cost roughly $7,000 to get a fully 'pay to win' build completed, plus grinding for many hours for some stuff you couldn't actually buy...

 

In 2017, I quit that game. Not like 'I'm taking a break', but "uninstalled, f*** this, I'm not coming back".

 

And for the last 4 years, not once have I overdrawn my credit card. I haven't been late on rent. My cell phone bill has been paid on time. I haven't had to dip into my credit card to pay for my car insurance. I've purchased two vehicles, with cash, no loan. I have been able to build a brand new PC (minus the GPU), upgrade my monitor, and plan on a second PC. I was able to afford emergency car repairs without having to sacrifice money earmarked for other things.

 

I am so, very glad I gave up on that game. It wasn't just sucking my wallet dry, but it was destroying my soul.

I feel like I know this game. I've heard very very similar stories about another MMO and they came out with a mobile version, that doesn't carry over your PC account, or something? I forget the details on that bit, but yeh. Sucks that you got caught up in that. Congrats on getting out.

[Mutoh]

"A fool and his money..."

[WereCatf]

33 minutes ago, Sarra said:

So, I spent roughly $10,000

[Mark Kaine]

39 minutes ago, Sarra said:

What some people don't talk about is the fact that loot boxes, predatory practices, and broken games have been a problem for a lot longer than just the last 4-5 years...

Maybe some people say this as they don't know any better but in fact it started around 2006/7 or maybe even earlier... 

 

Personally I have a similar experience from playing Playstation home for the entirety of its existence... it was very interesting to see how they changed their approach when they noticed people were obviously willing to pay a lot more than they thought they would... 

 

Not only was it huge, it had it all (except "loot boxes" I guess) 

 

I resisted to pay a cent for the longest time and frankly it wasn't really ever needed either, except 'some' games your chances were really hopeless if you didn't pay for better gear and stuff... 

 

Anyways, I *did* end up spending some money - thankfully it was easy to keep it under control with psn cards though - all in all, during several years I spent about $350... which is really ok as I had a lot of fun, and I didn't buy many games at all at this point because I didn't need to - home literally had it all for free. And often better than the real paid games too - imo! 

 

So yeah I can definitely see how one can get suckered into this... but as a matter of fact this became a lot worse in recent years obviously...

 

11 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

 

I knew people who spent 5-10 times that amount, in Playstation Home™

 

 Basically for virtual t-shirts and "apartments". 

 

Compulsive behavior is a hell of a drug apparently... 

[Moonzy]

15 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

I know someone that spent $10k usd in a year that I was playing with him

 

He didn't regret it at first, but after a year that we quit, he regrets it so much

[Quackers101]

Its very sad when a game is free to play, but if it just could be bought... it would be 10x more worth while. also when buying those microtransactions often are just a nibble than getting you further making you want to for another gate to be unlocked, either it being new heros, cards, maps, stats or whatever it might be.

 

Instead of putting you into a loop for multiple years just to get stung back, what is good about for example mobile games and their free to play. Is around the topic of guilds and the "social" structure. But is also just another way for them to push back on, if you got some decent enough player that you kind of become friendly with, get baited on the hook and suffer when it all felt like it was not worth it. But I can't understand why one would put a lot into a game though, although I can see it if you already did "invest" your money and if the first time was already a high number. Kinda hated that about WoW, they did build something because of the subscription and some might have felt they HAD to play the game.

 

Sometimes it can be fun just to see what the game is like and try stuff out, not so fun if one thinks there is more and drags further than what you actually wanted.

[Quackers101]

One could also go back to the times for the coin machines, were you used like a dollar for a game and put in a new one for every round or so.

So these things might have always been around, I guess in some form or another?

[Sarra]

5 hours ago, Moonzy said:

I try not to get too invested in a mobile game anymore after my last one

 

I legit felt a weight off my shoulder when I quit it, decided to stop giving a damn about dailies, wonder if you felt the same

See, it wasn't a mobile game, and it still isn't one. It's PC only. >_>

 

5 hours ago, Moonzy said:

I know someone that spent $10k usd in a year that I was playing with him

Well, it was $10,000 over the course of 8 years for me, but it was still a ton of money. I actually had to file bankruptcy, but the credit card debt at that point was only a drop in the bucket, it was 90% medial debt, 5% a car loan, and 4% misc loans, the credit card was only like 1% of it, but the credit card was maxed due to spending on the game.

 

4 hours ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

Each day I spent more and more time playing that crap. In about two weeks I couldn't get any sleep.

LOL this is why I stopped playing Eve Online. I kept my spending on that game very controlled, but I did have a very expensive ship get caught in a trap, but I logged out before I was discovered... And for 3-4 weeks, I couldn't sleep at night, worrying about that damn ship. After that, I cancelled my subscriptions, and just quit the game. I think I may have spent $500 on that game over a year, and I quite honestly wasn't very good at it. I was paying like $85 a month in subscriptions, too, which was more painful than I had expected.

 

Now, I'm just playing single player, or non-predatory games. Been rocking Borderlands 3, Stellaris, DiRT Rally, KSP, oh, and my absolute favorite automation game: Satisfactory. I love that game so much! I think I spent $20 on it?

 

Funny thing is, instead of blowing all of my money on crap gear that's going to be forced obsolete within two years to force everyone to buy better gear, I've been buying actual games. I've also got most of the Dragonforce music legally purchased, as well, just 2 albums short. It's so much different, I feel so much better than I did back in 2011 and 2012. My BFF is moving, so I'm able to take two weeks off work to drive 1,000 miles, help her rent a UHaul, then drive her 700 miles, unload her UHaul, then her boyfriend will drive us back, and I get to drive 1,000 more miles back home.

[Spindel]

Was the MMO possibly Silkroad Online?

[Sarra]

3 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Was the MMO possibly Silkroad Online?

No, it was Perfect World. I don't know why I didn't just say that to begin with...

[NineEyeRon]

I never play P2W games, if a game even smells of it then that’s a big red flag to me.

 

I want to lose because I suck, not because I have less money!

[Drama Lama]

10 hours ago, Sarra said:

, I spent roughly $10,000 on gear

oof

[spartaman64]

9 hours ago, Moonzy said:

I know someone that spent $10k usd in a year that I was playing with him

 

He didn't regret it at first, but after a year that we quit, he regrets it so much

 

10 hours ago, WereCatf said:

i know someone that spent $200k on black desert online. and then earlier last year he got perma banned for RMT LUL he got a new account but im not sure how much he spent on that one

[WkdPaul]

And there I am, sometimes questioning myself with my FFXIV monthly subscription of $13 ...

[WhitetailAni]

I've been playing Clash of Clans since 2016, I believe.

And not once in 4 years have I spent any money.

Yes, I have the Ice Queen skin.

No, I didn't spend 5 bucks - I spent 1500 gems instead.

For those who are wondering, I'm at TH10 with TH8/9 defenses and troops except for a cannon, archer tower, and some walls.

I'm not going to 11 until I'm fully maxed.

[Tristerin]

When ArcheAge MMO first launched I was going to win.  Within 1 month of me paying to win, I had owned a HUGE chunk of Marianople, had multiple accounts and then my credit card statement hit.  I spent $3000 nickel and diming myself through either Pay to Win stuff in the store, loot boxes, or straight up buying currency from Chinese farmers.

 

I choked on my spit when I saw the impact and error of my ways.  Deleted the game and have never looked back.  Honest once in a while when I get a wild hair up my ass Ill jump onto EQ2 or WoW and end up spending like $200 just to get new cool stuff, then it hits me what Im doing and I quit.  

 

Ahhh the addict in me, always have to beat him with a stick.

[eddiemcgarrigle]

I point blank refuse to spend any of my hard earned money on the like of loot boxes.  If I buy a game it has to be complete, I won't even by DLC unless there is a decent amount of 1st person content, I don't play multi-player (unless it's World Of Tanks, been on there for the last 8 years and still not spent a penny).

 

My son used to be heavily into Fortnite, birthday gifts from family used to include xbox gift cards that he would spend on extras.  I downloaded a game for him and forgot to remove my CC details.  He managed to spend £1500 in three nights of playing, 8 year old son thought he was spending gift card money, albeit he wasn't exactly counting it up.  Lots of phone calls to Microsoft before I eventually got the money refunded.  Lesson learned.

[Twolf]

oof Perfect World... I played it as well for a while, didn't sink more than probably a couple hundred though over a 3 year span but it was mostly on the QOL stuff (inventory space, bank slots, etc). Long time ago lol. Didn't realize they opted to go the pay the win route later on (I played it when it first got released in English both the Malaysian one and then eventually the International one when that came out with the better localization).

Currently play PSO2 and while I sink probably a good chunk into it, it's all cosmetics. Only every once in a great while do they do the support scratches where get stuff that can actually affect gear (items for affixing) but they aren't going to break your bank at least lol. The only thing that you pretty much HAVE to spend money on is making sure you have shop access so can actually sell your loot (ya, access to personal shops/"auction house" is stuck behind a paywall or a stupidly low chance to pull a coupon from the free scratch tickets though can also pay for "premium status" which is about same as a sub that gives you that access plus a few other perks so not totally wasted if you opt for it). At least though in the scratch ticket prize list that can preview it tells you the % chance for each item so it's at least transparent in that aspect.

Though the Global version (which I play on) has a horrible time with bots/gold seller scammers. The original Japanese version I guess isn't as bad but... well they IP banned China on that version so they don't get that many of them. Unfortunately on global if you decide to hang out in lobby you'll be blocking an advertising bot about every 1-3 minutes. They do ban them and the gold selling accounts but they're so slow about it that by time it happens the bot company has already made at least 10 more accounts anyways.

 

Still ... I understand the F2P games still have to make money to cover operating costs, developing new content, servers, etc as well as some form of profit.... but ya some of them are so predatory it makes for a horrible experience. Is only reason I don't mind PSO2's method even if it is pretty money grabby of Sega at times with it, at least it's not pay 2 win. Just some quality of life stuff (most of which only has to be purchased one time) and cosmetics for 99% of it, like said with just the exception of the limited release support gachas, which while not necessary, definitely help a lot when it comes to the weapon enhancement system, but you usually don't need to dump a ton into it really. And since you can level every class on a single character, don't really have to get much stuff anyways unless you're weird like me and just like having alts anyways.

 

I only just downloaded my first mobile game ever just to dink around with cuz I enjoyed the anime they made based off it. Princess Connect RE:Dive just got an English version launch like yesterday =x so I haven't gotten too far into it to notice any need to spend on the gacha system yet... we'll see what it looks like in a month or 2 once i've spent some actual time on it.

[Totallycasual]

Jesus Christ, and here i am being annoyed at Blizzard's treatment of the WoW franchise, i guess this shows how much worse things can get. 

[Falkentyne]

Those old Korean and Chinese pay to win MMO's....

 

And people forgot maplestory and "Those 2x exp cards will never be released in NA", stated by the Japanese (JMS) Gamemaster in early 2007.

Back then, the only thing you needed was a 90 day Free Market shop for like $10 every 3 months and you were good.

 

Then we started getting 2x drop cards, then later in the summer, those 2x exp cards finally appeared and it was slowly on the death spiral to pay to win....

[dizmo]

It's not that different than gambling. It targets those who have a weak will, and aren't smart with their money.

I've never understood why people feel the need to dump money into these. I've tried to play mobile games over, and over again. They're fun for the first few hours, maybe the first day if you're lucky. Then? Boredom. Grind. Dump in money, for what? A name slightly higher on the leader board? You're gaining literally nothing out of it.

[Sarra]

13 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

And there I am, sometimes questioning myself with my FFXIV monthly subscription of $13 ...

The sad thing is, I would have rather played WoW instead of PWI, but my friends, at the beginning, all played PWI instead. >_>

 

13 hours ago, ragnarok0273 said:

I've been playing Clash of Clans since 2016, I believe.

And not once in 4 years have I spent any money.

My BFF and her boyfriend are both addicted to Clash of Clans. They tried getting me in their clan, but... I just... Well, I had a Nexus 6, and while it could run it, I refused to install it XD Now, though, I have a Galaxy S10 Plus, but I still refuse to install it XD

 

2 hours ago, Totallycasual said:

Jesus Christ, and here i am being annoyed at Blizzard's treatment of the WoW franchise, i guess this shows how much worse things can get. 

I actually would like to play WoW again. I played it for around 3 weeks, and I leveled up 3 characters by doing one thing, and one thing only: PVP. I tried doing this with Neverwinter, but... Actually, it was pretty fun doing that. I stopped playing Neverwinter when they bumped the level cap up. Same with STO.

[Quackers101]

21 minutes ago, Sarra said:

I actually would like to play WoW again. I played it for around 3 weeks, and I leveled up 3 characters by doing one thing, and one thing only: PVP. I tried doing this with Neverwinter, but... Actually, it was pretty fun doing that. I stopped playing Neverwinter when they bumped the level cap up. Same with STO.

Unless you try to make the most out of your month, I won't say it's worth it.

Although in the newer WoW not the classic one, the PvP should be fun enough more so if one can play the "free demo" version. Else playing black desert just the story and not too focused on the grind, would maybe be more enjoyable if one are into that. But could be harder to stay away from microtransactions, even though you can buy stuff with ingame currency.