Europe Parliament accelerating transition to Electric Cars

[mr moose]

10 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Spec sheets claim that petrol cars can go under 6l/100km, in reality not so much. Pull your head out of the sand....

I have already told you,  I have seen it first hand.  3L to charge 9.8Kwh works out both on paper and in reality.  what sand do you think my head is in?  

[jagdtigger]

16 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

Considering my brothers old-ish Saab does around 6L per 100km during long stretches of road and trips, that isnt unreasonable.

Then there are old numbers in my head in that regard. But last time i checked none of the new cars could meet its advertised consumption rates outside the lab .

[Dabombinable]

24 minutes ago, Mihle said:

 

Hydrogen is really really energy inefficient to make. It takes so much energy to split hydrogen out of water, the most common way to make it. Electric cars are much more efficient. Also, recharging/refilling whateu you call it would be more expensive than full electric because if it. 

 

@Dabombinable also, it gets even less efficient making it to a liquid, we are talking 50% of that of electric or something, can't quite remember the exact numbers.

 

Hence why I said that it would be best combined with nuclear power. Which combined with HFC would lead to far lower pollution that you get with standard EV.

[GoldenLag]

13 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Then there are old numbers in my head in that regard. But last time i checked none of the new cars could meet its advertised consumption rates outside the lab .

i will not i am questioning my mentioned numbers a bit, but my brother did do some long trips while studiying in a different city about 400km away

[Ironwhale2009]

On 10/3/2018 at 5:19 PM, Drak3 said:

Yeah it'd be fairly easy to circumvent that tax.

Super easy.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Its basic chemistry, the lower the temperature the lower the capacity. And based on my experience with my phone and helmet cam its pretty close to half.....

High temperatures is actually a bigger issue than cold, warming and pre-heating battery packs is far easier than keeping them cool in 30C+ climate. They are trying to do a Tesla Model S Touring Championship and that is by far the biggest problem, cars keep triggering limp home mode because the battery pack gets too hot. Next iteration of the cars before the actual races is supposed to have that fixed but we shall see when it comes down to it in an actual race.

[jagdtigger]

15 minutes ago, leadeater said:

warming and pre-heating battery packs is far easier

That is true, but that takes away from the range. And locally speaking that is a huge issue since most ppl dont have a garage or any chance to plug in their car at night or while working.... (You cant leave a plugged in cable outside at night, plus it would disappear overnight.)

Edited October 5, 2018 by jagdtigger
Damn typo... :D

[Sakkura]

3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

There is this misconception that we need 500km range at all times with petrol cars. Lets just say we don't have any kind of range anxiety when my trip computer says 200km and I can be assured I can make a 160km trip without any need to worry I'll maybe need to make extra 40km afterwards without any delays. Can you be with your electric car without absolutely having to charge it for hours between that? With petrol it's a non issue because refill takes 5 minutes and you're again at max range. No car, not even most advanced and expensive Tesla on their superchargers offers that kind of convenience, assuming you have one to use. Which, in my country it would be a no since there are just 2 locations with them.

 

Then you'd be in a position to stick your EV at every possible regular charge point again assuming there is one and isn't occupied. And if your errands take just few minutes, you won't charge anything. It's just too fiddly with very little benefit from any of it.

Well, the idea isn't to have all of Slovenia switch to electric cars next year with the current number of charging spots. The idea is to have lots of charging spots - ideally at every parking space in cities, and major rural stops - by the time mass changeover happens. Then when you're at work your car recharges, while you're shopping it recharges, when you stop for lunch it recharges. Maybe in some cases long car trips will have to be planned a little differently, but it's not like they would be impossible.

 

And bear in mind battery technology is improving. I don't know how much better it will be in 2030, but it will be better than today.

 

So I can understand why you wouldn't be comfortable switching today - it isn't quite there yet. But there's a good chance it will be by 2030.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

That is true, but that takes away from the range. And locally speaking that is a huge issue since most ppl dont have a garage or any chance to plug in their car at night or while working.... (You cant leave a plugged in cable outside at night, plus it would disappear overnight.)

Well most people here do have a garage . Different countries have different issues. Heck my work has charging stations too, that's abnormal for pretty much everywhere though. Losing a bit of range on a car that you use 1/4 to 1/3 of the majority of the time isn't nearly as problematic compared to the car refusing to go above 20-30 km/h because it's too hot.

[Mihle]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

It uses 3 litres to perform a full recharge.  And much less while driving because it also has regen breaking. 

Many people seem to forget that hybrids have regen breaking, it's a shame.

[Mihle]

2 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

Hence why I said that it would be best combined with nuclear power. Which combined with HFC would lead to far lower pollution that you get with standard EV.

Over longer period of time possibly, but remember that for it to work you would need the machinery that makes the hydrogen and more nuclear plants because of it.

 

Also, no filling up the car at home.

 

But another thing, fully electric planes isn't possible outside mini planes currently because of battery weight, but hydrogen planes could be because less weight.

 

It would be more dangerous crashing a hydrogen car than an electric car I think? 

[Jtalk4456]

2 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

You cant leave a plugged in cable outside at night, plus it would disappear overnight.

I would have to disagree with this. There are many outdoor supercharging stations that already exist. You can certainly charge outdoors overnight. 

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

I would have to disagree with this. There are many outdoor supercharging stations that already exist. You can certainly charge outdoors overnight. 

I think the context of that was more just any random street, some dick head will come along and cut the cable because they are drunk and that's the least worst thing that could happen, other than them unplugging it.

[GoldenLag]

27 minutes ago, Mihle said:

But another thing, fully electric planes isn't possible outside mini planes currently because of battery weight, but hydrogen planes could be because less weight.

I believe short distance electric planes are under development. They will be for passanger flights on small runways.

 

It is the one market where such planes make sence. By suppl menting that with good rail infrastructure and you are good

[Jtalk4456]

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I think the context of that was more just any random street, some dick head will come along and cut the cable because they are drunk and that's the least worst thing that could happen, other than them unplugging it.

I don't think that's as likely as it's being made out to be. Also if my neighbor vandalizes my personal property like that, then I don't want to live in that area and the charging station is likely the least of my worries

[RejZoR]

39 minutes ago, Mihle said:

Many people seem to forget that hybrids have regen breaking, it's a shame.

Regen braking is such a waste because you can't feed power back to battery fast enough. Yields are thus really low. One company making super capacitors once proposed using those for short term power (like from regen braking) to be stored in super capacitors and then slowly used for current devices like AC, headlights, car stereo etc and remaining returned to the slow charging battery. To date I'm not aware of any mass produced models to do this.

[Jtalk4456]

7 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

we can legally go between cars if its safe to do in a stand still traffic

VERY dependent on where you are. While there are a very few places where this is legal, most places this is very illegal. Personally I have no clue why it's legal anywhere, it's reckless driving and should not be allowed

[Drak3]

Just now, Jtalk4456 said:

Personally I have no clue why it's legal anywhere,

California is not known for good laws.

[Mihle]

42 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

I believe short distance electric planes are under development. They will be for passanger flights on small runways.

 

It is the one market where such planes make sence. By suppl menting that with good rail infrastructure and you are good

They are really small and only short distances, size or money won't limit their range, it's the battery weight per capacity that does. For bigger planes or longer distances  hydrogen is the only current option that is green. Even with it being less efficient energy wise than batteries.

[LeSheen]

On 10/3/2018 at 6:12 PM, G27Racer_188 said:

And what will the government do if people start making their own electricity? They will put a tax on it, so you will have to pay tax, because you are not buying their electricity directly. 

 

Aaaand there goes your cheaper option.

If you produce your own electricity in Belgium you still have to pay for "using" the net. This could be seen as the tax.

[Jtalk4456]

6 minutes ago, LeSheen said:

If you produce your own electricity in Belgium you still have to pay for "using" the net. This could be seen as the tax.

can I assume you mean a grid tied system? And if so, how does the cost for "using" the grid compare to the cost of actually using electricity? Is it a flat fee deal or what?

[LeSheen]

13 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

can I assume you mean a grid tied system? And if so, how does the cost for "using" the grid compare to the cost of actually using electricity? Is it a flat fee deal or what?

Well since i don't produce electricity myself i'm not sure. But I think its a flat fee.

[Egg-Roll]

7 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Its basic chemistry, the lower the temperature the lower the capacity. And based on my experience with my phone and helmet cam its pretty close to half.....

That shows how much you actually know about how cars work... At least for Tesla they have a heating/cooling system that consumes the battery to keep the batteries at optimal temperatures, however if at work/home and you have it plugged in it will not effect your range

 

In fact based on this video the battery heater won't even kick on at your hilariously high -10...

 

7 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Its basic chemistry, the lower the temperature the lower the capacity. And based on my experience with my phone and helmet cam its pretty close to half.....

You're comparing a car that should have protection (this includes insulation) to a device that has a free floating battery directly to the elements? Why?

 

7 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Same with pedestrians, if you fear death dont go out from you house...

Sinkholes.

 

8 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Its the plaything of the rich...

How Doug literally said you can grab one for less than $20,000.... So how is that for the rich?

 

8 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Non-existent problem for a motorbike(we can legally go between cars if its safe to do in a stand still traffic).

 

As for savings you cant beat a 50ccm 2T bike in that regard(4T is better in fuel consumption, but has more maintenance cost).

Not for a good part of North America, not to mention it is unsafe to do so anyways even if it is legal (egocentric drivers).

 

7 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

The thing that takes double amount of time in case of commute than when i go to work with motorbike? No thanks......

First I've never meet a business person riding a bike (of any type) to work, and second if I was the boss of one I'd tell them to stop.

 

7 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Its hungarian but the main point is understandable i think:

   Hide contents

As for other gases motorbikes do not stand still in the jam unlike cars so in the long run they are better.

Ummm, they said other than CO2, bikes push out more pollutants than cars and at times in higher numbers... Plus you compared a Jeep to a Bike... You could just buy a plugin and boom nearly as good and has more room than a +1.

 

7 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

Still not understanding why hydrogen fuel cells aren't being pursued for electric cars. They are a hell of a lot greener, sustainable and convenient.

Aren't fuel cells expensive to produce still? I like them but I think everyone (or almost) have given up on them for batteries because minimal work needs to be done to get them working. Think of it almost everywhere on the planet has power, and battery tech gets better every year due to the number of devices that use it. So integration is so much easier and cheaper.

 

6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Why everyone just automatically assume you can just plug cars everywhere. That's not how any of it works.

You don't have a standard plug outside of a building somewhere that you can use? Maybe a extension cord threw a dryer vent? How are you even typing on this forum if not?

 

8 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

No i just think realistically here, most ppl cant afford a crazy expensive EV and maintain a IC car just for longer trips. Because for long trips EV's are useless with their long charge time even if you quick charge, which is harmful to the longevity of the battery

I won't deny quick charge destroys the battery but how much it does is minuet to the number of large trips the average person makes...

Realistically you'd have thought of renting a car instead of owning something, that would have been realistic. Or simply borrowing a car.

Assuming you can quick charge what ICE drivers fail to realize is if you land yourself into a busy gas station you could wait 5 minutes to pump gas (at least) another 3-5 to pump gas (colder weather takes longer sometimes) then another 3-??? minutes in line to pay assuming you don't pay at the pump (I personally wouldn't unless it is NFC). Tesla claims 30 minutes, depending on how bad your gas stations are it could take just double the time and oh yea it's not as grimy or dirty to use let alone the sometimes nasty smell of poorly maintained cars. Plus the slip hazards if some dumb ass split oil recently...

[kokakolia]

On 10/3/2018 at 9:00 AM, Vode said:

Where does the electricity come from?

 

As long as we burn coal for electrcity this is a ridiculous effort. Dumb as hell.

 

Not even talking about the batteries, which are an environmental disaster on their own.

It’s not dumb. Burning coal in a power plant is more efficient than burning fuel in a car. Further, power plants are better equipped to filter emissions than cars. However, batteries are an environmental disaster on their own. But they don’t have to be a disaster in the countries that use them and do not produce them. It’s a selfish way to look at it, I know. 

 

But it what I would like to see is a real life cycle analysis of an electric car VS gas powered car. “Zero emissions” is kind of a fat marketing lie. You produce emissions when you produce cars and batteries to power them. The question is “how much?” and I am afraid that the answer will disappoint.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, Jtalk4456 said:

VERY dependent on where you are. While there are a very few places where this is legal, most places this is very illegal. Personally I have no clue why it's legal anywhere, it's reckless driving and should not be allowed

Try sitting in the jam in the middle of the summer without AC and you will understand....