Europe Parliament accelerating transition to Electric Cars

[Egg-Roll]

45 minutes ago, benji_ said:

id go electric if they wernt so boring and took didnt take 3 years to charge. whereas with petrol they are much more enjoyable and i can refill in 2 mins

Once again false impressions that make the average person think electrics are incapable... The leaf assuming left at dead only takes 8 hours to charge, this means you get to work plug it in at days end you have a full car, even if you had to pay 25 cents per kw/h thats $10 from dead, reality is if you charge at home only and can get to work and back on one charge you are only paying the rate your house gets charged when you sleep (usually around 6 cents).

 

As for gas stations, it really depends on where you live. Today in Canada you could be waiting upwards to 10 minutes to just get the privilege to stand outside of your car to fill up and even that could take more than you "2 minutes" depending on the pump speed, also the 2 minute claim is complete BS, you whine about charge times from 0 but then say I'm going to compare it to a half a tank or possibly even a quarter empty? Not to mention you have to go inside (unless you use the unit outside) and wait there... 

 

18 minutes ago, Captain Chaos said:

or get away from a disaster?

Depending on the disaster it could be already too late by the time you leave. So why worry?

 

1 hour ago, TopHatProductions115 said:

I do understand your frustration with other drivers being irresponsible, but I must ask you something(s):

• Are mass-transit vehicles required to undergo emissions currently?
• Are mass-transit vehicles any safer than using your own car?
• Are mass-transit vehicles any more efficient than using your own car at the hypothetical price you mentioned?

As for background information, this can't apply:

• http://www.mta.info/news/2018/01/08/mta-testing-10-new-all-electric-buses-reduce-emissions-modernize-public-transit

because it's still being implemented and rolled out. The program isn't widespread yet.

Hybrid buses count if there are any.

 

This is a thing:

• http://gothamist.com/2018/08/14/mta_body_cams.php

 

Not sure about emissions but with stupid Ford in Ontario it might be required, tho less winter they usually run on Bio

Yes, unless a truck or another heavy vehicle plows into it, or it flips (even then it is still safer, usually), sadly youtube is full of under-regulated Chinese bus crashes... Seriously never drive or get on a bus in China... 

Yes, assuming a bus is valued at $1 million it will run for at least 12 hours a day 5 days a week (sometimes more), can carry upwards to 60 sitting plus standing, even if it consumes 10x more fuel than that beast of a truck your ignorant single guy next door owns it is still more efficient than your smart car in your driveway. This is assuming it is ran by a competent transit system and not one trying to munch on all the tax money possible.

 

At least where I live a good portion of buses are either Bio for 8-9/12 months and or are hybrids. Almost all transit systems in the GTA have stated their interest in going "green" within the next 30-50 years.

 

3 minutes ago, G27Racer_188 said:

Others don't want to make sacrifices and are waiting for new generations to come.

That's why Hybrids are a excellent choice for those 1%ers. For everything else it's called a rental, or keep your old ICE engine for those rare trips.

[Jtalk4456]

34 minutes ago, Captain Chaos said:

Works just fine.  People know where they can expect motorcyclists to pass them and usually leave space.  Of course one has to keep in mind that driver education over here is a lot better, which results in far fewer idiots on the road.

personally it doesn't seem to be lack of education that causes bad drivers, but lack of attention and caring 

[G27Racer_188]

13 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

For everything else it's called a rental, or keep your old ICE engine for those rare trips.

Not everyone can afford to rent or keep a second vehicle.

 

Also even if something is rare or a one time thing, people like to be prepared for them.

I mean, do you NEED airbags in your car? No for the 99.9999%  of the time, but you will be really grateful to have them for that 0.0001% when you need them to keep your nose pointing outwards, instead of into your skull.

When a new phone comes out and it isn't water resistant, people bring it up as bad point (which it definitely is for some people), but how many people actually need the water resistance and use it daily?

 

Don't get me wrong, I am guilty of this. I have a saying for when someone asks me why I need feature X on a product Y, and I say "Point is to have it, not to use it" for that one time you actually need to use it.

[kokakolia]

1 hour ago, TopHatProductions115 said:

I do understand your frustration with other drivers being irresponsible, but I must ask you something(s):

• Are mass-transit vehicles required to undergo emissions currently?
• Are mass-transit vehicles any safer than using your own car?
• Are mass-transit vehicles any more efficient than using your own car at the hypothetical price you mentioned?

As for background information, this can't apply:

• http://www.mta.info/news/2018/01/08/mta-testing-10-new-all-electric-buses-reduce-emissions-modernize-public-transit

because it's still being implemented and rolled out. The program isn't widespread yet.

Hybrid buses count if there are any.

 

This is a thing:

• http://gothamist.com/2018/08/14/mta_body_cams.php

If more people use the bus or train, fewer cars are on the road. The fewer cars on the road, the better. We would have quieter streets with fewer parking spaces and fewer driving roads. Everything would be closer together. And yeah, one bus driving 50 people is more efficient than 50 people in 50 cars. No matter how you do the math. 

[jagdtigger]

7 hours ago, Jtalk4456 said:

I don't think that's as likely as it's being made out to be. Also if my neighbor vandalizes my personal property like that, then I don't want to live in that area and the charging station is likely the least of my worries

Problem is most of the time most ppl's car are parked at public places, for instance:

https://www.google.hu/maps/@47.6661128,17.6384729,3a,75y,171h,86.34t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sU8AiV8ugT9MG0Yky4EadvQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DU8AiV8ugT9MG0Yky4EadvQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D52.55157%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

 

You cant have your car plugged in there.... Plus if someone dies because of your cable(no matter how) you gonna be held responsible for it.

[jagdtigger]

6 minutes ago, jonhyNoCash said:

I'm old enough to remember that dumb phones were so much better in charge time

Current phones could have that too. If it werent for apple and all the idiots who copy them and make phones so thin that it actually hurts usability(small battery)....

[Egg-Roll]

29 minutes ago, G27Racer_188 said:

Not everyone can afford to rent or keep a second vehicle.

 

Also even if something is rare or a one time thing, people like to be prepared for them.

I mean, do you NEED airbags in your car? No for the 99.9999%  of the time, but you will be really grateful to have them for that 0.0001% when you need them to keep your nose pointing outwards, instead of into your skull.

When a new phone comes out and it isn't water resistant, people bring it up as bad point (which it definitely is for some people), but how many people actually need the water resistance and use it daily?

 

Don't get me wrong, I am guilty of this. I have a saying for when someone asks me why I need feature X on a product Y, and I say "Point is to have it, not to use it" for that one time you actually need to use it.

If one can't afford to rent a car for 3 days, why are they driving? Because society claims driving is faster and better than public transit? Do you really need to get back home by 5:30 (assuming 5PM departure) or can you get back home by 6PM and be 100% fine? Equally I wouldn't want to get into a accident with said person either, because there is a good chance they have minimal insurance which if they are at fault might not pay out to you (your insurance might not pay out either demanding you to sue the driver instead)

 

Fun fact every time a new safety feature gets put into play (airbags, reverse cameras, avoidance detection) people become reliant on it and therefore cause worst accidents than before they existed. Oh this 6 pack of inflatable bags will save me I can go 120+km/h and give no shits, dead from a phone on the steering wheel launched into their face. Oh I have collision avoidance I no longer need to look while changing lanes or turning, kills a whole family trying to go to x-mas dinner. Oh I have a reversing camera on my new car, no longer need to look to park except at this cool looking 5" screen, kills a 3 yr old. Etc... This is the average human being, and they are only getting worst as more "safety features" are added to vehicles. The best safety feature anyone could add is removing the human part of driving where the car obeys ALL laws, and sees all... However that seems more and more like a pipe dream than anything else...

 

Only safety feature you need really is a seat belt, everything else in modern day is really a death trap, not designed to be but with peoples mentality they are.

[G27Racer_188]

15 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Only safety feature you need really is a seat belt, everything else in modern day is really a death trap, not designed to be but with peoples mentality they are.

Couldn't agree more with the last part of the sentence.

 

But as someone who likes driving, I don't like the idea of removing the driver completely.

----------

Driving can be faster than public transport, but that really depends where you live. I live in a small town so it takes about 15 min to get to city center by car, and 20 by bus. Difference isn't massive, but it is faster.

[Egg-Roll]

6 minutes ago, G27Racer_188 said:

But as someone who likes driving, I don't like the idea of removing the driver completely.

----------

Driving can be faster than public transport, but that really depends where you live. I live in a small town so it takes about 15 min to get to city center by car, and 20 by bus. Difference isn't massive, but it is faster.

True, but sadly that is the only way we can make sure the roads are safe...

 

I know the feeling, while I don't drive when YRT put in a express bus that used the 404 I used it, it was faster at first than taking the main route (prob is once again thanks to how they are doing the construction on said route). It wen't about 100km/h on the highway (bus sounded like it was being murdered) and using all buses (less the 10 minutes of waiting for 2 buses) it was just as fast as driving. That said I wouldn't mind driving to and from work, it's just too costly... For the same price in 5 years of driving I could use that money for a 2 week vacation in Japan and I mean a real vacation going to a new hot spring every night blowing threw 20K easily , all I have to sacrifice is 30 minutes a day each way which (here anyways) can easily be consumed in traffic thanks to Hwy 7's (and main roads) bad traffic during morning and afternoon rush...

[Eaglerino]

15 hours ago, Mihle said:

Size of the country itself doesn't matter much, what matter is how far people usually travel in their country day to day. Especially in cities it's many people that could live with electric cars. Outside the cities some people can't tho.

 

Why do you need to be able to charge in 5-10 min AND 500+ "miles" range? Do you usually take day trips that is 1000 "miles" for example?

And if you do, don't you usually stop to eat on the way?

 

I travel 1000 miles every few months. Having to stop for 1-2 hours every single time I want to get gas would add 6+ hours to the trip. I don't eat on trips in a sit down restaurant, I eat while driving, and even if I was at a restaurant it takes me maybe 35 minutes to eat. The  "Just eat while it charges" was never a valid excuse for me

[Sakkura]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

Problem is most of the time most ppl's car are parked at public places, for instance:

https://www.google.hu/maps/@47.6661128,17.6384729,3a,75y,171h,86.34t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sU8AiV8ugT9MG0Yky4EadvQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DU8AiV8ugT9MG0Yky4EadvQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D52.55157%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

 

You cant have your car plugged in there.... Plus if someone dies because of your cable(no matter how) you gonna be held responsible for it.

While true, there's no reason they couldn't have charging available in places like that. It just takes time and money to build up that infrastructure. It's definitely good that they're not pushing this through right now, as many places are not ready for a major roll-out. But by 2030 that could be a very different story.

[Mihle]

@TopHatProductions115 Never hadde a problem like your last link in my country so....

[Mihle]

1 hour ago, Eaglerino said:

I travel 1000 miles every few months. Having to stop for 1-2 hours every single time I want to get gas would add 6+ hours to the trip. I don't eat on trips in a sit down restaurant, I eat while driving, and even if I was at a restaurant it takes me maybe 35 minutes to eat. The  "Just eat while it charges" was never a valid excuse for me

At least in Europe, your situation is really rare. 99,5%+ of people doesn't do that. At least not as often and that.

[Eaglerino]

6 minutes ago, Mihle said:

At least in Europe, your situation is really rare. 99,5%+ of people doesn't do that. At least not as often and that.

Which is why I said it wouldn't be as big of a deal in EU. In the northern parts of the states outside of the cities and coasts people drive pretty far pretty often. The next biggest city where I live is 6 hours away

[jagdtigger]

7 hours ago, Sakkura said:

While true, there's no reason they couldn't have charging available in places like that. It just takes time and money to build up that infrastructure. It's definitely good that they're not pushing this through right now, as many places are not ready for a major roll-out. But by 2030 that could be a very different story.

Even if they build it out(which is unlikely) the average joe wont buy EV until there is no other choice.... (And since we mostly buy used cars that wont happen anytime soon.)

[Jtalk4456]

13 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Problem is most of the time most ppl's car are parked at public places, for instance:

You cant have your car plugged in there.... Plus if someone dies because of your cable(no matter how) you gonna be held responsible for it.

I fail to see why "most people park in public places" makes any difference to the argument. Also I would say that's very wrong. Most park at their jobs and parking lots owned by businesses. 

Also how is someone dying because of my charging cord? And how am I responsible for fred dying if fred decides to come on my property and stick scissors in the charging port and electrocutes himself. I think you are assigning liability where there is none. If someone improperly uses MY stuff, the judge isn't asking why i have dangerous stuff, but asking why they were in my yard messing with my stuff. 

[jagdtigger]

6 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

I fail to see why "most people park in public places" makes any difference to the argument. Also I would say that's very wrong. Most park at their jobs and parking lots owned by businesses. 

Also how is someone dying because of my charging cord? And how am I responsible for fred dying if fred decides to come on my property and stick scissors in the charging port and electrocutes himself. I think you are assigning liability where there is none. If someone improperly uses MY stuff, the judge isn't asking why i have dangerous stuff, but asking why they were in my yard messing with my stuff. 

Because you dont live there. That parking lot is a public place. Only the places inside those buildings are private property. Plus try to imagine dropping down the cord from the 10th floor, its just asking for trouble.... To top it off it isnt limited to these many floor buildings. There are several houses here that don not have a parking place so the car is parked on the road which is again a public place. The law in this case is dumg AF but we cant do anything about it.

 

/EDIT

Oh and forgot a little tid-bit. I seen many house that has a 15 Amp main fuse meaning they would need to rewire at least some of the existing electrical network.

Edited October 6, 2018 by jagdtigger

[Jtalk4456]

9 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Because you dont live there. That parking lot is a public place. Only the places inside those buildings are private property. Plus try to imagine dropping down the cord from the 10th floor, its just asking for trouble.... To top it off it isnt limited to these many floor buildings. There are several houses here that don not have a parking place so the car is parked on the road which is again a public place. The law in this case is dumg AF but we cant do anything about it.

What are you talking about with dropping the cord from the 10th floor???? Also most business parking lots aren't public spaces, they are owned by the same place that owns the building. Also I never said it works everywhere for everyone, places where houses don't have a driveway will have a harder time implementing charging. It could be done, but most complexes won't bother paying for it. Still if they have a typical distance to work and work has chargers it would be easy to do. As for whatever you mean by dropping cords from the 10th floor, do you realize the cords don't detach? They're kind of built into the unit.

And no one ever said about putting charging ports 10 floors off the ground. Are you talking about parking garages maybe? If you are, my work has charging ports on every floor of our parking deck. They never have any problems. I'm not sure where you got the idea of dropping cords, but that's not a thing.

[Mihle]

@jagdtigger it doesn't work like that. If you charge in a public place and some random person cuts the cable and dies you have zero problems. It's not your fault, it's the fault of the person cutting the cable, and it it's somehow happens without the person trying, it's an accident. The person owning the cable have no liability. At least here.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

I seen many house that has a 15 Amp main fuse

What? Seems a bit unlikely that only 15A is used on the mains input, that would make most ovens unusable because they require more than a 15A fuse. Electrical regulations here require a 40A (6mm TPS as well) breaker for a freestanding stove/oven, 32A (4mm TPS as well) for wall oven or electric hob.

 

Of course those are just circuit ratings but our wall oven alone uses 3kw-3.5kw, you'd never be able to cook in the oven and use an electric hob ever with a 15A mains fuse let alone anything else as well.

[jagdtigger]

6 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

What are you talking about with dropping the cord from the 10th floor???? Also most business parking lots aren't public spaces, they are owned by the same place that owns the building. Also I never said it works everywhere for everyone, places where houses don't have a driveway will have a harder time implementing charging. It could be done, but most complexes won't bother paying for it. Still if they have a typical distance to work and work has chargers it would be easy to do. As for whatever you mean by dropping cords from the 10th floor, do you realize the cords don't detach? They're kind of built into the unit.

 

Spoiler

 

And no one ever said about putting charging ports 10 floors off the ground. Are you talking about parking garages maybe? If you are, my work has charging ports on every floor of our parking deck. They never have any problems. I'm not sure where you got the idea of dropping cords, but that's not a thing.

Im talking about charging at home and how it is a big issue for 90+% of the population of Hungary, hell you cant even charge at work because there is no charger anywhere! You still think with the wealthy nations in mind. Try thinking with ppl in mind that cant even buy a used car without loan/installment.....

[jagdtigger]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

What? Seems a bit unlikely that only 15A is used on the mains input, that would make most ovens unusable because they require more than a 15A fuse. Electrical regulations here require a 40A (6mm TPS as well) breaker for a freestanding stove/oven, 32A (4mm TPS as well) for wall oven or electric hob.

 

Of course those are just circuit ratings but our wall oven alone uses 3kw-3.5kw, you'd never be able to cook in the oven and use an electric hob ever with a 15A mains fuse let alone anything else as well.

Yes, in case of new houses, but there are a lot of old houses where the electrical system didnt got upgraded since they can use gas for cooking and heating.

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Im talking about charging at home and how it is a big issue for 90+% of the population of Hungary, hell you cant even charge at work because there is no charger anywhere! You still think with the wealthy nations in mind. Try thinking with ppl in mind that cant even buy a used car without loan/installment.....

If your work would even allow you to charge it, 10-15 cars charging every day would not be an insignificant cost that the business wouldn't want to pay. Then of course to even have the capability to charge that many cars would cost a lot, one car even on slower charge isn't much of a problem but it quickly gets out of hand.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If your work would even allow you to charge it, 10-15 cars charging every day would not be an insignificant cost that the business wouldn't want to pay. Then of course to even have the capability to charge that many cars would cost a lot, one car even on slower charge isn't much of a problem but it quickly gets out of hand.

 

The charging stations could have a meter on them that is only enabled by an employees key fob.  They could then deduct the recharge cost from their pay and prevent random no bodies just showing up to charge their cars.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The charging stations could have a meter on them that is only enabled by an employees key fob.  They could then deduct the recharge cost from their pay and prevent random no bodies just showing up to charge their cars.

I'm thinking the power delivery would be the bigger problem, if you need say 20A continuous and 40A peak per charging station that's potentially 400A. Most smaller business I've dealt with have issues tripping breakers because someone plugged in a heater, a 10A appliance heh.