Europe Parliament accelerating transition to Electric Cars

[jagdtigger]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I'm thinking the power delivery would be the bigger problem, if you need say 20A continuous and 40A peak per charging station that's potentially 400A. Most smaller business I've dealt with have issues tripping breaking because someone plugged in a heater, a 10A appliance heh.

Yep, and just out of curiosity i checked our breaker box:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sry25vuyojxnzts/DSC02979.JPG?dl=0

 

The main breaker is on the left side. Its hard to see but its a C16 meaning its 16A.....

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I'm thinking the power delivery would be the bigger problem, if you need say 20A continuous and 40A peak per charging station that's potentially 400A. Most smaller business I've dealt with have issues tripping breaking because someone plugged in a heater, a 10A appliance heh.

That's something that is going to have to be overcome regardless of where cars get charged.    I mean,  most people will charge when they get home from work or overnight changing peak loads.   Imagine if everyone in one street got an EV and they all went to charge at 6pm after work?

 

EDIT: on point: I had a second supply added to my workshop so it was separate from the house due to that issue.  (plasma cutter kept tripping the main breaker).

[jagdtigger]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

EDIT: on point: I had a second supply added to my workshop so it was separate from the house due to that issue.  (plasma cutter kept tripping the main breaker).

Did you had to pay a small fortune for it? Because last i spoke with someone who wanted 3 phase said it would cost something like 1500€ or so....

[leadeater]

27 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Yep, and just out of curiosity i checked our breaker box:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sry25vuyojxnzts/DSC02979.JPG?dl=0

 

The main breaker is on the left side. Its hard to see but its a C16 meaning its 16A.....

Looks like a C25 as well 2nd top left, you sure that left top most C16 isn't for something like the hot water cylinder? Or does that C25 drop in to that C16 then the reset feed of that C16?

 

Edit:

Oh nvm that C25 is for an oven of some kind, at least according to google translate of the word below it.

[Pixel5]

On 10/3/2018 at 5:35 PM, yian88 said:

WTF kind of laws? they just simply vote emissions should be % percent lower in upcoming years? based on fucking what?  if we dont have the technology to improve that much how can they vote such laws.

if you dont make it law the technology is not gonna be researched.

 

why invest money in it if there is no benefit from a car makers perspective.

[jagdtigger]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Looks like a C25 as well 2nd top left, you sure that left top most C16 isn't for something like the hot water cylinder? Or does that C25 drop in to that C16 then the reset feed of that C16?

Its C20 and it is for the electric stove only.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

Its C20 and it is for the electric stove only.

Must be another breaker up the chain from those two that I would normally refer to as the mains fuse/breaker. Always interesting seeing how other countries do it. Have many problems only having 15A throughout the house? I'm a bit of a power hog myself so I know I'd have to do something about it, well I did actually but didn't even wait after buying the house just got the whole mains board replaced completely with all new 63A mains breaker, 3 main feeds of 40A RCDs and C32s for my computer crap, wall sockets replaced with 15A ones too (larger ground pin).

[Jtalk4456]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

Im talking about charging at home and how it is a big issue for 90+% of the population of Hungary, hell you cant even charge at work because there is no charger anywhere! You still think with the wealthy nations in mind. Try thinking with ppl in mind that cant even buy a used car without loan/installment.....

so yes, I'm coming from a perspective of the US, but that doesn't mean i haven't considered what it would be like for less wealthy nations. Also I've never said it works for everyone in all situations. I'm talking about an ideal future, not what would be simple in the present. If I thought it were so simple, I'd have an electric car, but I don't have the kind of money for that. Also I think you vastly overestimate the wealth of most people in the US. Most people here can't buy a used car without a loan either. Wealth inequality is a big thing here too

Quote

Currently, the richest 1% hold about 38% of all privately held wealth in the United States. while the bottom 90% held 73% of all debt. According to The New York Times, the richest 1 percent in the United States now own more wealth than the bottom 90 percent.

I've not once said it would be cheap or easy to do in regards to money. As with any new technology, there will be a high initial investment. The idea is it will pay itself off, which is certainly true for Electric cars. That's not to say though that everyone can afford that investment. It will be tough for many, some simply won't be able to do it ever. But like how there were first generations of families able to go to college, there will be first generations of families to enjoy the privileges of an electric car. And a few generations down, it will be standard practice, as going to college is now for most people

[jagdtigger]

35 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Must be another breaker up the chain from those two that I would normally refer to as the mains fuse/breaker.

There is, its beside the meter(its on the outside so it can be read without us being home). Its B25, but for the inside aside from the stove if i flip off that c16 everything looses electricity.

 

38 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I'm a bit of a power hog myself so I know I'd have to do something about it, well I did actually but didn't even wait after buying the house just got the whole mains board replaced completely with all new 63A mains breaker, 3 main feeds of 40A RCDs and C32s for my computer crap, wall sockets replaced with 15A ones too (larger ground pin).

Now thats brutal, and my father complains i have too many stuff turned on 24/7....

Edited October 6, 2018 by jagdtigger

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

There is, its beside the meter(its on the outside so it can be read without us being home). Its B25, but for the inside aside from the stove if i flip off that c16 everything looses electricity.

All mine are outside, I could have gone with putting an internal sub board in like you have but wasn't really worth the effort or extra cost, a lot extra. New builds just have the meter outside though. Currently I use about 1000 kwh per month but that's without 3 of my servers running at all, can only afford to have 1 on atm. Costs about 12-15 euro/week per server so yea, that's a lot of money to waste on servers doing nothing much of use in reality so they are off.

 

The 63A main breaker and 40A RCDs are regulation here, any work carried out and that is what must be installed no matter the house, can of course go higher than that if required.

[jagdtigger]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Costs about 12-15 euro/week per server so yea, that's a lot of money to waste on servers doing nothing much of use in reality so they are off.

For me its 200W constant with my server at idle on top of all the networking gear. IDK how it looks like when the server is at full tilt....

(I say server but its just a consumer grade ryzen machine.)

[Mihle]

40 minutes ago, leadeater said:

All mine are outside, I could have gone with putting an internal sub board in like you have but wasn't really worth the effort or extra cost, a lot extra. New builds just have the meter outside though. Currently I use about 1000 kwh per month but that's without 3 of my servers running at all, can only afford to have 1 on atm. Costs about 12-15 euro/week per server so yea, that's a lot of money to waste on servers doing nothing much of use in reality so they are off.

 

The 63A main breaker and 40A RCDs are regulation here, any work carried out and that is what must be installed no matter the house, can of course go higher than that if required.

To me, having them outside, southern US style or where they do it is so weird. You got to go outside if it trips. But those countries that that do it doesn't get as cold as here.

Meter is also inside. That's how they do it here and how they have done it forever.

 

There is one circuit breaker outside to protect the power net outside from what happens in the building(like the house burns down and a huge sort circuit happens), but it covers both where I live and the 2 in the terraced house. It's like 150-250 A or something, can't exact remember. Everything belse is inside in the fusebox.

 

Here is a photo if you want that:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bSkGQ1dgLuTGxvZCNGGSgx0jNGqaDPg8/view?usp=drivesdk

 

Worh noting that the building was built in the late 80s if I remember right. What you see was changed to modern ones last year when the kitchen also got re done.

 

Also, In Norway we have done this weird thing that instead of having 3 phase 400v or 1 phase 230v (splitter 3 phase 400v) we have 3 phase 230v so in the sockets around the house, both phases is live.

That is something we have stopped with tho, in new streets, areas or buildings that get its own transformer, we do as most Europe does an have 400v 3 phase in to the house and split it up to 1 phase 230v.

 

Main one is 50A, One of them is 25A, two is 10A and the rest is 16A.

 

In new houses they also have more but smaller fuses. Like less 16A and more 10A. As it is here like other older( not that old but older), there is multiple rooms per 16A one. In newer buildings it's max 1 room per 10A, sometimes multiple 10A. Our sockets us rated for 16 A.

 

In my case, four of the 16A would still be 16A if it would be built today as it's for spesific things like one is just for oven. But the two others plus one of the 10A would have most likely be split up in to at least six 10As if not more.

 

None of them is for electric car btw.

 

I don't have any servers or advanced networking gear btw. Would possibly be fun to play around with but I don't know what I would do

 

EDIT: photo fixed

 

EDIT 2: Oven is only 16A because is just the Oven, the 25A one is for the induction top.

[leadeater]

25 minutes ago, Mihle said:

Here is a photo if you want that:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bSkGQ1dgLuTGxvZCNGGSgx0jNGqaDPg8/view?usp=drivesdk

Oooo Eaton, nice. Like Eaton stuff .

[Donut417]

Im all for stricter environmental standards. Like the OP stated even if you dont believe in Global warming, pollution is still bad for human health. 

 

My only issue with EV's are the fact you need extra electricity for charge them. Not sure about Europe but the US power grid is pretty shit now days. Plus it takes time to charge these cars. While I do know we got a lot of smart people working on the issue and Im sure fast charging will become a thing, still there are limitations we need to over come. I personally think Hybrids are the answer, at least for today. 

[Commodus]

11 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Im all for stricter environmental standards. Like the OP stated even if you dont believe in Global warming, pollution is still bad for human health. 

 

My only issue with EV's are the fact you need extra electricity for charge them. Not sure about Europe but the US power grid is pretty shit now days. Plus it takes time to charge these cars. While I do know we got a lot of smart people working on the issue and Im sure fast charging will become a thing, still there are limitations we need to over come. I personally think Hybrids are the answer, at least for today. 

The power demand isn't that high... and besides, it'd mean decentralized power demand by shifting it from dedicated stations toward homes, stores and offices.

 

Faster charging is also very much on the way, at least at dedicated stations.  The Porsche Taycan will reach 80 percent in 15 minutes... not something you'd want to do if you're running late, but you could take a quick pit stop at the convenience store and have enough of a charge to reach your destination.  Other EVs are going for similar charging performance in the future.

[Egg-Roll]

3 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Im talking about charging at home and how it is a big issue for 90+% of the population of Hungary, hell you cant even charge at work because there is no charger anywhere! You still think with the wealthy nations in mind. Try thinking with ppl in mind that cant even buy a used car without loan/installment.....

So all of your hatred and misinformation towards EVs is actually tunneled frustration that is meant to be put towards your countries government and corporations? You know how bad that makes you look right?

 

I'm sure less wealthy countries will be last adopters but they have plenty of time (at least 20 years) to prevent a bigger issue. Instead of trying to prevent progress, try making the government and companies with in your nation to get their asses in gear so when it knocks on their doorsteps they are ready.

 

As for your car loan thing I doubt those who can't afford one really need one... A drivers license is a great thing to have, a car? Not so much.

[Donut417]

18 minutes ago, Commodus said:

decentralized power demand by shifting it from dedicated stations toward homes,

Not in the US. Multiple States have made harder for people to use solar. Mostly because power companies dont want you to sell power back to them. Plus there is the cost of installing the systems. On top of the fact we have an Aging power grid over here. I just think about the blackout of 2003, where that tree took out the entire North East of the US. Electric cars would have been screwed. Something like that happening again is not out of the question. Because from what I have seen not much has been done to protect the grid. Hell DTE is having issues with houses exploding because of Gas Main issues. So not only the power grid but Natural Gas is fucked too. 

[Mihle]

11 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Not in the US. Multiple States have made harder for people to use solar. Mostly because power companies dont want you to sell power back to them. 

Stupid.

You could still do so you use less electricity from them tho.

If it's not like my country where the payback time on solar is 30++ years because electricity is so cheap because hydro.

[jagdtigger]

32 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

So all of your hatred and misinformation towards EVs is actually tunneled frustration that is meant to be put towards your countries government and corporations? You know how bad that makes you look right?

Nope, there is no hatred. Just disppointment how everyone talking up EV's while ignoring the harsh reality that EV's arent that good and not ready to be mainstream, let alone supersede IC vehicles.......

[Commodus]

22 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Not in the US. Multiple States have made harder for people to use solar. Mostly because power companies dont want you to sell power back to them. Plus there is the cost of installing the systems. On top of the fact we have an Aging power grid over here. I just think about the blackout of 2003, where that tree took out the entire North East of the US. Electric cars would have been screwed. Something like that happening again is not out of the question. Because from what I have seen not much has been done to protect the grid. Hell DTE is having issues with houses exploding because of Gas Main issues. So not only the power grid but Natural Gas is fucked too. 

It's still decentralized in that you're spreading power demand across wider areas instead of a handful of locations.  And yeah, you might not sell solar back into the grid, but you can still lower your demand from the grid.

[Sakkura]

With a smart grid, electric cars can even help balance grid loads, and help cover for the variability of renewable energy sources. So if everyone fires up their microwave ovens or electric stoves at dinner time, cars can put a bit of electric power back into the grid, and then charge during the night when there's less demand but wind power may still be producing lots of energy. And their charging can be varied depending on whether the wind is picking up or not, and in the daytime depending on whether the sun is shining on the solar panels at any given moment.

 

Of course that requires a lot of management tools. It should still be possible for the car owner to override the automated charging pattern and have it ready for a long trip at 11PM, if they happen to need that.

[Egg-Roll]

16 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Nope, there is no hatred. Just disppointment how everyone talking up EV's while ignoring the harsh reality that EV's arent that good and not ready to be mainstream, let alone supersede IC vehicles.......

which is somewhat a fallacy stating they are not ready for the mainstream. The reason why they are not ready to be "mainstream" is because other companies use their own charging styles, then the different charging ports (to the car) making it hard to sell because said ports might not work with your local ones w/o an adapter if at all.... But this doesn't mean the tech and vehicles are not ready for the mainstream it simply means all companies including Tesla are being assholes to each other and in turn to all potential clients and the world. If they created a standard plug in port for at least based on local current rails (meaning a car from the UK might not work in the USA) then adoption would actually be very easy.

 

For example Ford actually has a all EV Focus for $35,000 CAD (which for some reason claims to be only available in Quebec) plus taxes etc (which is closer to $40,000 all in), said vehicle goes nearly 200km on one charge which is more than enough for the average commuter. So yes they are ready for the mainstream, but thanks to misinformation, unwillingness and corporate stupidity (along with some Gov stupidity, I'm looking at you Doug Ford), they are not able to go mainstream.

 

Most people (at least here) when buying new will pay at least $25,000 for a new car, tack on maintenance and gas during 5 years you're actually close to the cost if not over of a $35,000 EV. So it's not just practical to most people it's also affordable. Once again this doesn't go towards countries whose main population is impoverished, in which case they should not own a car anyways.

 

 

Most people don't do this kind of travel... Like 99.9% of this country doesn't...

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, Egg-Roll said:

which is somewhat a fallacy stating they are not ready for the mainstream.

-built out charger network: non-existent

-better range than IC: nope

-longevity of batteries still short

-expensive AF

-no real benefit in using an EV

 

Yeah, definitely ready for mainstream.... /s

[Jtalk4456]

34 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

-built out charger network: non-existent

-better range than IC: nope

-longevity of batteries still short

-expensive AF

-no real benefit in using an EV

 

Yeah, definitely ready for mainstream.... /s

-built out charger network

not needed for 90% of people, but will happen over time as they get more popular

 

-better range than IC

not really important given ice range far exceeds standard use

 

-longevity of batteries still short

not really, they last quite a while currently, and will only get better over time

 

-expensive AF

simply not true, there's several options in the 20k range, which is about how much most good ice cars cost before the cost of gas and maintenance that is not present in an all electric.

 

-no real benefit in using an EV

No benefits, EXCEPT 

health

cost savings

environment

heat

less maintenance

greater longevity

noise reduction

not smelly

better all around....

 

but no definitely no benefits..... XD

[TopHatProductions115]

A better electric grid, with only 25% of power produced by combustion of fossil fuels, 30% produced via combustion of cleaner bio-fuels/natural gas/ethanol-based substances, 10% through renewables like solar and wind, 20% produced via nuclear and other exotic methods, 15% through hydroelectric and other dependable alternatives (as long as we don't alter the landscape too much). That would be the best place to start. Once the energy portfolio has been diversified enough and the grid has been revamped, then we could start some real work. Then, we'l need better power storing technologies (super capacitors, jelly batteries, graphene/silicene etc.). When those two things come around, the cost of having EVs for everyone should drop significantly. But maybe I'm not on the right path?