Is Apple's behavior ILLEGAL?? - iMac Pro Repair Pt. 2

[Ashleyyyy]

21 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

really? I find it extremely intuitive to click "apply to screen 2". Seems easy as dirt to me, but to each their own i suppose

i don't like it necessarily, i think a separate window on each display is better. when i had my triple display setup they were arranged like 3 1 2 so it would be confusing in that case. 

[Jtalk4456]

4 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i don't like it necessarily, i think a separate window on each display is better. when i had my triple display setup they were arranged like 3 1 2 so it would be confusing in that case. 

so for you it's more intuitive to have multiple settings windows open with one for each display and have to click on multiple windows on multiple screens to accomplish the same thing I can do in 1 window? Also what if you move one of those windows to a different screen, does it apply to the different window? You and I have some VERY different ideas of intuitive design. To me that sounds like a nightmare 

[ProprietaryModules]

@LinusTech@nicklmg@GabenJr@CPotter@jakkuh_t@AlexTheGreatish
I want to shed some attention on a serious issue that linus and louis will run into during the repair.

 its related to the SSD portion of the imac pro logic board swap.

 

Since both SSD's in an imac pro are paired to the logic board, and since logic boards normally do not come with SSD's, the data on the imac pro will be gone, along with the old encryption keys for the old logic board. In order to pair the SSD's to the new logic board, you require a software tool called MCU, which is only available to Apple folks. basically, you stick the imac pro into DFU mode, run this tool, and it generates new encryition keys for not only both of the SSD's, but also the secure enclave on the Imac Pro.

Basically, swapping SSD's isnt really a thing if you're not an Apple technician, and pairing them to a new board isnt possible without this tool and a technicians appleID. Theres no documentation that says that an SD will work in jbod mode, and everything we have suggests that the machine will not boot if the SSD's arent paired. The only way you can currently get those SSD's to work is by repairing the old logic board

I've already notified Louis Rossmann as well about this issue, not sure what he has to say yet

 

[3 Lions]

I find it amazing that no Apple fanboys have responded to this yet since with the first video responses were coming in on the same day of release just a few hours apart. I think the fanboys have looked at this situation and thought "actually... this is a bad way of doing business, why should I support a company who does this to customers?" 

 

You'd think within hours it would be headline news, you'd think all the Apple YouTube channels would respond to this but nope nothing... 

 

[Emily Young]

2 hours ago, nicklmg said:

Sure, we're probably profitable on the 2 videos we've made so far. But we're FAR less profitable on those videos than we would have been on typical videos where we didn't have to spend thousands of dollars on replacement parts, flying people to different cities to try to get this fixed, shipping and driving the computer to multiple shops to no avail, etc...

Yeah... This is more life giving us lemons and making lemonade out of it (something Linus is actually really good at doing, which I first realized during the first Louis Rossmann collab before I started here). In addition, I legitimately think this is a story that needs to be told, because if we had just been able to fix it in the first place, none of these videos would even exist and I'd just have a restraining order on the iMac Pro.

 

... Somehow despite being the one who broke it, I'm the most qualified to fix it in the building... I've gotten pretty good at disassembling it by now. Louis Rossmann will do a better job than I, though.

 

30 minutes ago, ProprietaryModules said:

@LinusTech@nicklmg@GabenJr@CPotter@jakkuh_t@AlexTheGreatish
I want to shed some attention on a serious issue that linus and louis will run into during the repair.

 its related to the SSD portion of the imac pro logic board swap.

 

Since both SSD's in an imac pro are paired to the logic board, and since logic boards normally do not come with SSD's, the data on the imac pro will be gone, along with the old encryption keys for the old logic board. In order to pair the SSD's to the new logic board, you require a software tool called MCU, which is only available to Apple folks. basically, you stick the imac pro into DFU mode, run this tool, and it generates new encryition keys for not only both of the SSD's, but also the secure enclave on the Imac Pro.

Basically, swapping SSD's isnt really a thing if you're not an Apple technician, and pairing them to a new board isnt possible without this tool and a technicians appleID. Theres no documentation that says that an SD will work in jbod mode, and everything we have suggests that the machine will not boot if the SSD's arent paired. The only way you can currently get those SSD's to work is by repairing the old logic board

I've already notified Louis Rossmann as well about this issue, not sure what he has to say yet

We, uh, yeah. No need to worry there, though we're not going to specify exactly how we're going to get around this for reasons. But this is definitely something I'm planning to include in part 3. Man... I remember when it was a bummer that Sony locked the PS3's optical drive to its mainboard because those early consoles had a ton of trouble with them. It would have been so easy to repair if the part could be swapped...

 

Apple really isn't the only one who does this, but I don't think they even have good reason to (you could at least argue that DRM required encryption keys for the PS3). I love Apple's software, and I like the look and feel of most of their hardware, but man, you'd better hope nothing goes wrong out of warranty... And I mean there are people who haven't had any issues - I'm one of them, I've got a 7 year old MacBook Pro whose only fault is the battery's old despite having a GPU recall. But just because I got lucky doesn't mean everybody else will...

[nicklmg]

2 minutes ago, GabenJr said:

(something Linus is actually really good at doing, which I first realized during the first Louis Rossmann collab before I started here). 

Yeah I think this comes along with the extreme business savvy that Linus has.. most people just think he's some random tech guy that hosts video, but he's a pretty damn shrewd negotiator, and incredibly business-minded. Sometimes that gets a bit lost in the "I'm having fun making videos" mindset that he gets into, but when he's in focus on something it's tough to beat his judgement in most business cases.

[ProprietaryModules]

13 minutes ago, GabenJr said:

We, uh, yeah. No need to worry there, though we're not going to specify exactly how we're going to get around this for reasons.

Interesting, id love to know how this is done. As far as i know, the only theoretically possible way to do it is to get louis to essentially swap the T2 chip from the old board to the new one or

Spoiler

get an AASP to do it for you in secret

. As far as i know, T2 isnt paired to anything other than the other 2 SSD's, and if the board is brand new, it is possible to serialize it with the same serial as the old board (since new MLB's arrive blank)

We've only just had our first imac pro come in, and it is a board swap, so its a fun adventure for us all

[Guest]

4 hours ago, nicklmg said:

 

This video is in no way clickbait lol. Apple is seriously walking a dangerous line here, legally speaking. We're not the ones to take them on, but someone will some day, and it won't be cut-and-dried.

 

That's the thing though - with Apple's policies, sure it costs more to repair than the machine itself costs. But that's with a $3,000 mark-up on the logic board. This shit is criminal. The point of the video was to prove that no, under a normal company's policies, it would not be more expensive to repair than to buy a new one.

 

You seem to have entirely missed the point of the video.

It's pretty big clickbait and theres no problem with that if it's great content, I've been a big fan for a while of LTT and it's usually great stuff, but theres a clear trend happening especially with the titles - but it's Linus' job to get views and every view is equal. 

 

$3000 is a lot of markup on but remember it is a fairly custom board and the policies with adding RAM and CPUs with the board, Apple treat it as one unit. They've been getting away with this huge markup for a while. It wasn't too long ago when adding another 8GB of RAM to a product would be ~$200. On a side note with pricing this reminds me of the trade-in program, I'm not sure if it would work here but I traded in my phone (Accidental washing machine accident), not covered by warranty but I could buy a new one, of the same kind for around a third/quarter of the price. Maybe they have a similar thing here. (Not the Apple Giveback program, thats only $1000 credit). Probably would work out cheaper than repairing by a margin. 

 

Anyway if I missed the point of the video in future it should be clearer is what I am saying. Clear and concise makes for a much better video, and especially where discussion is concerned than a lengthy video thats a bit jumbled. 

[mrchow19910319]

4 hours ago, nicklmg said:

 

yeah.. I read all your comments. I think that your claims are pretty fair and reasonable. 

[Nicnac]

Ugh stop crying about this already

[Nena Trinity]

Not only is the practice illegal in Murica if you think the amount of laws they break there is bad, but in Europe oh boy that is a even bigger list of laws broken. Why the hell is Apple not banned yet? Its a crime against every civilized region in the world, hell I bet it should been illegal in China to!

[D13H4RD]

9 hours ago, LinusTechTipsFanFromDarlo said:

I find it amazing that no Apple fanboys have responded to this yet since with the first video responses were coming in on the same day of release just a few hours apart. I think the fanboys have looked at this situation and thought "actually... this is a bad way of doing business, why should I support a company who does this to customers?" 

 

You'd think within hours it would be headline news, you'd think all the Apple YouTube channels would respond to this but nope nothing... 

 

Probably because when it first came out, many of the same guys jumped the shark. They didn't actually read further into what's happening and assume that Linus tried to get a free repair when he shouldn't because he broke it (although in actuality, he was willing to pay for the repair since he knows the standard warranty wouldn't cover it) 

 

I don't know what else to say but I wished they'd read further to get the picture before coming up with a counter-argument. By then, it would hold a bit more weight. 

 

This also reminds me of the one comment I saw on Quinn's seriously botched iMac Pro repair. It was along the lines of "If you hadn't tried to remove the VESA mount, none of this would have happened". Bear in mind that I see the same comment with other companies, so it's not just Apple. 

 

Come on guys. I understand liking Apple (I have a bunch of their products and I do like using them) but can there ever be a time where we hold them accountable to their actions? 

[nicklmg]

19 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

$3000 is a lot of markup on but remember it is a fairly custom board and the policies with adding RAM and CPUs with the board, Apple treat it as one unit.

Right - and the cost of that unit is $2,000 (when counting it as one unit - logic board, CPU, RAM, GPU), not $5,000. The $3,000 mark-up came because they refused exchange pricing based on a "warranty void if removed" sticker.

 

If they had half a shit to give about the consumer and allowed you to only purchase the logic board it would be well under $1,000 for that part alone.

 

Apple's actual hardware pricing is surprisingly reasonable - they just choose to screw the consumer at every given opportunity.

[Nerdom]

On 7/10/2018 at 1:43 PM, nicklmg said:

jesus this will never end unless linus becomes ceo of apple which by then apple will have rotted

 

 

[m2234323]

what is people option of some who just get a mac mini and iPhone that work and do what they want then doint upgrade  it all and just use it for ever 

[Nerdom]

1 minute ago, m2234323 said:

what is people option of some who just get a mac mini and iPhone that work and do what they want then doint upgrade  it all and just use it for ever 

To be honest a mac mini until it's updated needs an upgrade out of the box desperately, so I think retarded.

[m2234323]

2 minutes ago, Nerdom said:

To be honest a mac mini until it's updated needs an upgrade out of the box desperately, so I think retarded.

what do you mean it is a non gaming dad who just do some website view and very light photo editing  and video  he value  mony instead of saving 1 second of a page loading 

[Nerdom]

1 minute ago, m2234323 said:

what do you mean it is a non gaming dad who just do some website view and very light photo editing  and video  he value  mony instead of saving 1 second of a page loading 

But the mac mini hasn't been updated in 5+ years... I don't see how unless you need a mac for cheap why it would be a smart buy. The hard drive is a sloth, the processor is multiple generations old, and therefore so is the on-board graphics. Get a $500 laptop or SFF instead. You'll get better specs than a dual core.

[m2234323]

5 minutes ago, Nerdom said:

But the mac mini hasn't been updated in 5+ years... I don't see how unless you need a mac for cheap why it would be a smart buy. The hard drive is a sloth, the processor is multiple generations old, and therefore so is the on-board graphics. Get a $500 laptop or SFF instead. You'll get better specs than a dual core.

i mean my dad have it for a long time and doint want to upgrade he say it does the job 

and he dislike window  os or linus or hacking a mac os on a pc 

it  get max out often  he just say  waite for it 

 

[bimmerman]

This video's pretty timely for me-- I'm debating what to buy for a new laptop, and the 15" MBP is(was?) pretty high up the list. Definitely will be keeping this in mind.

 

I'm still skeptical on the logic board $2k figure-- I see how you're getting it based on reasonable comps in the market, but I'm curious whether you've gotten an actual quote for the board itself (not the assembly) to back up the estimate.

[Emily Young]

11 minutes ago, bimmerman said:

I'm still skeptical on the logic board $2k figure-- I see how you're getting it based on reasonable comps in the market, but I'm curious whether you've gotten an actual quote for the board itself (not the assembly) to back up the estimate.

The $2k figure for the board is actually what we paid for our entire new assembly (meaning that the board itself is actually well under $2k). That's in comparison to the ~$4.6k estimate for the same assembly from the AASP, which tells me that, aside from a ~$600 markup (which itself would suck but isn't the end of the world), Apple is charging double for part replacements that don't get a part return. What's more, they charge that price to AASPs up front, and the AASPs get credited after receipt of the broken part.

[bimmerman]

3 minutes ago, GabenJr said:

The $2k figure for the board is actually what we paid for our entire new assembly (meaning that the board itself is actually well under $2k). That's in comparison to the ~$4.6k estimate for the same assembly from the AASP, which tells me that, aside from a ~$600 markup (which itself would suck but isn't the end of the world), Apple is charging double for part replacements that don't get a part return. What's more, they charge that price to AASPs up front, and the AASPs get credited after receipt of the broken part.

Ah, that makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

 

Also isn't surprising for me from my experience with cars. Car part costs are much higher post-sale than when you buy the car-- someone a few years ago went through the bmw 3 series catalog and figured out that if you buy all the parts new, and built your own car with 0 labor cost, you'd spend quite a bit more than buying the exact same car from the dealer.

[asus killer]

i get Apple sucks, i agree, but most people if not all that buy Apple aren't going to open, remove stickers, remove screen from any of their products. When things are out of context they hardly ever make sense. 

 

Apple stuff are not meant to be opened, repaired by anyone else but them. And it doesn't appear to be a flaw, it's a feature. People keep buying overpriced stuff they can't upgrade, or open, or repair next door, or DIY, and they are absolutely fine with it, they like it that way, it's a status symbol not a practical tech item.

 

People that buy Apple and open it, or try to repair it, or DIY'it or take it to the shop in the corner run by some Indian emigrants (the ones from India) that can repair anything, really didn't buy the right product for them, they didn't understand the status symbol thing, this people pay other to this for them, preferably Apple not to damage the status of the symbol.

 

Still enjoyable to watch the fan and counter fan wars

[YaBoiWill]

Apples motto is like Red's, fucking your wallet isn't just our job, it's our passion. 

Their blatant lack of quality testing and assurance on their butterfly keyboards is just nonsense, and trying to get the consumer to cough up 700$ or more for a fix is total shit. 

I like their designs, its something that appeals to me, but the hardware and the costs are the factors that drive me away. I have had 3 times more problems with my MacBook than I have had with my ghetto built PC. 

IDK about all of the right to repair stuff, but I assume now that the broken warranty void if removed sticker on the momo is now just a bit of paper and not a fist up the arse? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that apple will have found their way around this, seeing as they have lobbyists who have Tim cooks arm so far inside them that they're just a puppet in power. 

[Cheezers]

On 7/11/2018 at 12:48 PM, ProprietaryModules said:

@LinusTech@nicklmg@GabenJr@CPotter@jakkuh_t@AlexTheGreatish
I want to shed some attention on a serious issue that linus and louis will run into during the repair.

 its related to the SSD portion of the imac pro logic board swap.

 

Since both SSD's in an imac pro are paired to the logic board, and since logic boards normally do not come with SSD's, the data on the imac pro will be gone, along with the old encryption keys for the old logic board. In order to pair the SSD's to the new logic board, you require a software tool called MCU, which is only available to Apple folks. basically, you stick the imac pro into DFU mode, run this tool, and it generates new encryition keys for not only both of the SSD's, but also the secure enclave on the Imac Pro.

Basically, swapping SSD's isnt really a thing if you're not an Apple technician, and pairing them to a new board isnt possible without this tool and a technicians appleID. Theres no documentation that says that an SD will work in jbod mode, and everything we have suggests that the machine will not boot if the SSD's arent paired. The only way you can currently get those SSD's to work is by repairing the old logic board

I've already notified Louis Rossmann as well about this issue, not sure what he has to say yet

I'm assuming that the assumption (ha) is that Louis will be able to save the logic board. thereby, making MCU unnecessary