BMW Offices in Munich Raided by Authorities in search of Diesel Emissions Cheating

[AlTech]

BMW's Munich offices have been raided by authorities in search of Diesel Emissions Cheating.

 

It is suspected that most car manufacturers in Europe conduct emission cheating to some extent using Defeat Devices.

 

Quote

To many, finding out that Volkswagen had been cheating at emissions tests came as quite a shock. Others viewed the event with some indifference; a cynical take might be that every OEM would do the same thing given half the chance. Well, score one for cynicism.

On Tuesday, BMW's offices in Munich—the iconic four-cylinder building you might remember from Rollerball—and an engine factory in Austria were raided by the authorities in connection with suspected fraud related to exhaust emissions.

At question are two diesel-powered models, neither of which is sold in the US: the BMW 750xd and M550xd. According to an official statement from Munich's attorney general, prosecutors believe that those two models have been fitted with an illegal emissions-testing defeat device.

These devices monitor various input from the vehicle and can discriminate between regular driving and conditions that would occur during emissions testing. If the vehicle believes it's being tested, engine performance can be altered with compliant maps that allow it to pass the test while actually emitting far more pollution during regular use.

 

In this case specifically, they believe 2 of BMW's cars may be using defeat devices.

 

Edit: In case it wasn't clear or in case you don't know. Defeat devices are software/code in a Car's Real Time Operating System which detect when the car is being tested for emissions and alters the parameters of the engine etc to appear more green/environmentally friendly than it is. Modern cars (1980s + ) are controlled by computers built into the car. When you hit the gas pedal, you're telling the car's computer to make the engine work harder and accelerate.

 

This isn't the first time it's happened and it probably won't be the last.

 

Quote

This isn't the first police raid of BMW's HQ in recent months; in October last year it was searched in relation to price-fixing between German automakers. And it's not the only car company to be raided by European police looking for evidence of emissions fraud, only the most recent.

In January 2016, Renault was raided. In April 2016, it was PSA Peugeot Citroen's turn. Then in May 2017, Mercedes-Benz's parent company, Daimler, got a visit from the law. Even more recently, Daimler was accused of having defeat device software running on diesel vehicles that turned off compliance measures after 16 miles (26km) of driving.

 

So yeah, emissions cheating is BS and really, diesel vehicles should be banned. We really badly need more inexpensive and good quality electric cars.

 

Source:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/bmws-offices-raided-by-munich-police-in-search-of-diesel-cheating/

[TheSLSAMG]

3 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

????

 

It was in this movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollerball_(1975_film)

[sazrocks]

18 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

diesel vehicles should be banned.

I was with you until here. Why the heck should this be done? Aren't modern diesel vehicles cleaner than equivalent gas vehicles, and get better fuel economy? Or am I misinformed? 

And what fuel would you suggest high-load vehicles such as tractor trailers use?

[AlTech]

1 minute ago, sazrocks said:

I was with you until here. Why the heck should this be done? Aren't modern diesel vehicles cleaner than equivalent gas vehicles, and get better fuel economy? Or am I misinformed? 

The reality is that outside of Diesel Emission tests, in the real world Gas vehicles are wayyyy cleaner than diesel.

 

Diesel cars are killing thousands of people every year due to the highly toxic Nitrogen Dioxide they produce.

[straight_stewie]

2 minutes ago, sazrocks said:

I was with you until here. Why the heck should this be done? Aren't modern diesel vehicles cleaner than equivalent gas vehicles, and get better fuel economy? Or am I misinformed? 

Modern diesels are far and away cleaner than gasoline engines can ever be, per unit of fuel consumed. And since diesel engines generate much more power per unit of fuel, diesel engines, by extension pollute less per unit of fuel burned.

However, some diesel engines are very, very large.

[sazrocks]

3 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

The reality is that outside of Diesel Emission tests, in the real world Gas vehicles are wayyyy cleaner than diesel.

 

Diesel cars are killing thousands of people every year due to the highly toxic Nitrogen Dioxide they produce.

Do you have a link to a source for that? Are you alluding to the Volkswagen emissions scandal or are you saying that this is more widespread? And does what you're saying apply to vehicles equipped with a urea/ammonia treatment system? 

 

Also more on-topic, did the authorities actually say that BMW was cheating on emissions tests, or just that it was suspected?

4 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

Modern diesels are far and away cleaner than gasoline engines can ever be, per unit of fuel consumed. And since diesel engines generate much more power per unit of fuel, diesel engines, by extension pollute less per unit of fuel burned.

Do you have a link to a source for that?

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

I'm not surprised, Fiat Chrysler is also in some hot water with the Department of Justice.

http://driving.ca/chrysler/auto-news/news/chrysler-must-recall-trucks-to-avoid-emissions-lawsuit

 

Ford is in the mix. Though these are just allegations from customers.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-10/ford-sued-by-truck-owners-claiming-diesel-engines-were-rigged

 

Chevy, Volvo, Nissan, Renault, Mercedes, Citroen, Hyundai, they'll all in the mix as well. Can't confirm legitimacy as most news outlets only focused on VW as they were the first to fall and the largest automotive group in the mix.

[Blademaster91]

10 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

Modern diesels are far and away cleaner than gasoline engines can ever be, per unit of fuel consumed. And since diesel engines generate much more power per unit of fuel, diesel engines, by extension pollute less per unit of fuel burned.

However, some diesel engines are very, very large.

Diesel engines only make sense in trucks that need the torque to move high loads, modern efficient gas engines are much cleaner than diesel engines used in cars.

[AlTech]

2 minutes ago, sazrocks said:

Are you alluding to the Volkswagen emissions scandal or are you saying that this is more widespread?

This is probably more widespread although I was alluding to the VW scandal.

2 minutes ago, sazrocks said:

Also more on-topic, did the authorities actually say that BMW was cheating on emissions tests, or just that it was suspected?

It is suspected but they're gathering proof of it.

 

[Tech Enthusiast]

We went shopping for a BMW a month ago. The BMW 5 has about 100 units (forgot the units honestly) of pollution for the diesel variant, while the gas variant has 125ish.

 

Yes the gas variant pollutes less PER LITRE, but the diesel variant runs on 3,4 litres per 100km. Which is almost 2 litres less than the gas one.

 

So basically, i don't understand the hate for diesel. Yes it does pollute more, if you ignore how much less it uses. After all, why would we care about pollution per litre, if all that matters is the total pollution in reality? :-/

[FloRolf]

56 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

The reality is that outside of Diesel Emission tests, in the real world Gas vehicles are wayyyy cleaner than diesel.

 

Diesel cars are killing thousands of people every year due to the highly toxic Nitrogen Dioxide they produce.

No, that's bullshit, sorry. 

[Bouzoo]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

Diesel cars are killing thousands of people every year due to the highly toxic Nitrogen Dioxide they produce.

 

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

So yeah, emissions cheating is BS and really, diesel vehicles should be banned. 

NOx levels in last decade or so have ridiculously reduced and the fuel is much cleaner now. Then again, you could argue that diesel gets better mileage, needs less refilling and produces less CO2 which, you know, global warming and all. 

[Mihle]

There is two kind of pollution.

That kind of pollution that make global warming worse.

Petrol have more of that kind of pollution.

And that kind of pollution that is bad to physically breathe in for humans.

Diesel have much more of that kind of pollution.

[Mihle]

5 minutes ago, Mihle said:

There is two kind of pollution.

That kind of pollution that make global warming worse.

Petrol have more of that kind of pollution.

And that kind of pollution that is bad to physically breathe in for humans.

Diesel have much more of that kind of pollution.

And what's worse in my opinion, depend on where you live. Diesel pollution is really bad in cities, but out in nowhere where Boone lives it doesnt matter that much.

 

There is a reason why only diesel card have gotten banned in some Norwegian cities on really windstill (and cold I think?) Days.

[19_blackie_73]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

, diesel vehicles should be banned. We really badly need more inexpensive and good quality electric cars.

I have to deeply disagree with you as somebody that studies engineering with courses on engines and general car design.

 

General banning is a very short sighted approach because IF you would use the latest state of the art parts on an engine, emissions can be really really low, both gasoline or diesel. Gasoline engines tended to have lower emissions than diesel before the gasoline engines introduced direct injection, this introduced higher particle emissions because the air fuel mixture is created in the cylinder and therefore tends to be not that homogenous as non direct injected engines. But, as already stated, you can get them both very very clean. 

 

Developments like Mazdas SkyaktivX look very promising, and probably there is a potential in alternativ fuels, but there has to be a lot more research on both still.

 

Why did I not think electric cars are not the way to go now? I think they are at least not the way to go in their current state. 

1.) They need lots and lots of lithium, copper and other rare materials or materials that create huge pollution and health risks when mined for those who mine them.

2.) Our power grids are really not developed for a huge amount of electric cars. Imagine you have a city with 1 Million cars at least, probably 10% will load at the same time. The power draw will be immense even when spread, and we need a solution for that very fast. Especially in the evening hours there will be a large spike that can cause huge problems if not attacked early.

3.) Range and loading times are BAD. Reality is: not everybody has a supercharger at home or around and even if, see point 2.). Especially when travelling long routes and when many people already have electric cars, imagine how huge the recharge station have to be cause there would be piling a number of vehiclr because loading times.

 

I think we need to think outside the box to get a solution. The future is neither the gasoline or diesel engine powered with gas from the ground nor the battery eldctric vehicle in its current state, but TODAY there's no way around gasoline and diesel engines for long range and BEV tend to be a good solution for the people who just have to get around town and travel short distances.

[Mihle]

4 minutes ago, huilun02 said:

Diesel is better than petrol. Less carbon emissions that contribute to global warming. Costs less to produce, yet moves greater loads and over longer distance per litre.

If diesel costs more than petrol where you live, you are getting ultra-low sulfur grade of fuel which costs more for additional refining, or due to higher taxes on diesel, or both. Yet margins on diesel are still higher...

Diesel have more emissions of those that is really bad for humans to breathe in. 

[Mihle]

Just now, huilun02 said:

Which is also a good thing (for everything that isn't human)

It's really really bad for humans living in cities on wind still days especially. Really bad.

 

Diesel shouldnt be used in cities, but out where Boone lives who cares.

[Tataffe]

This is nonsense. What actually happened:

 

In the wake of the VW scandal, BMW updated some of its car's firmware to even more reduce emissions, which were never over the limit to begin with (trust me, since the VW thing, numerous instances have closely inspected BMW engines and never found ANYTHING). Unfortunately, some workshop employees installed the wrong firmware on 11 700 vehicles (so, not a lot), leading them to behave in a way that could result in increased emissions. This was an accident!

 

Very important: This was found by BMW themselves and then immediately communicated to the authorities. Of course, this raid is bad press now, and with the OP for some reason hating on diesel engines, a topic needed to be created in the LTT forum

 

Source (in German, deal with it): http://www.bimmertoday.de/2018/03/20/razzia-bei-bmw-diesel-software-im-fokus-der-staatsanwaltschaft/

[Blademaster91]

26 minutes ago, Tataffe said:

This is nonsense. What actually happened:

 

In the wake of the VW scandal, BMW updated some of its car's firmware to even more reduce emissions, which were never over the limit to begin with (trust me, since the VW thing, numerous instances have closely inspected BMW engines and never found ANYTHING). Unfortunately, some workshop employees installed the wrong firmware on 11 700 vehicles (so, not a lot), leading them to behave in a way that could result in increased emissions. This was an accident!

BMW "accidentally" installing firmware on over 11,000 cars? Maybe on 100 but on that many it's hardly an excusable accident.   Wrong software should have been found on the next service although software emissions have been a problem since cars have become computers on wheels that the owner can't really repair themselves either.

 

[Cole5]

Why? Like why is it so hard to not cheat? The money it woulda cost em to make a cleaner would be nothign to if they get these fines

[asus killer]

you should all watch Netflix documentary "dirty money"

 

Anyone of us exhale CO2, the problem of CO2 is it's excess but there are far worst pollutants coming out of a car in smaller quantities, and Diesel beats any other type of fuel. 

[Tataffe]

18 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

BMW "accidentally" installing firmware on over 11,000 cars? Maybe on 100 but on that many it's hardly an excusable accident.   Wrong software should have been found on the next service although software emissions have been a problem since cars have become computers on wheels that the owner can't really repair themselves either.

 

You say "on over 11,000" cars like that is a lot. It is not. BMW alone makes over 2,000,000 cars every year. Stop scandalising please.

 

If you want more details: The engine in question (N57) has multiple variants, which require different firmwares. The N57D30S1 variant, used on 7 series and 5 series cars and not in production any more, does not feature an AdBlue system, which caused it to emit higher than normal amounts of NOx, since the applied firmware assumed that there was an AdBlue system present.

 

And could you elaborate on what you mean with "should have been found on the next service"? The time that this problem has existed for is way shorter than the normal time between services.

[Tataffe]

15 minutes ago, Cole5 said:

Why? Like why is it so hard to not cheat? The money it woulda cost em to make a cleaner would be nothign to if they get these fines

Ask Volkswagen (and their brands, Audi and Porsche). They have been cheating, the others have not.

[Trik'Stari]

15 minutes ago, Cole5 said:

Why? Like why is it so hard to not cheat? The money it woulda cost em to make a cleaner would be nothign to if they get these fines

Unless the standards are so strict that it's not possible to make a vehicle that can meet them, whilst being a vehicle that someone still wishes to drive.

[AlTech]

1 hour ago, FloRolf said:

No, that's bullshit, sorry. 

Which part?