FBI 'could force Apple to hand over private key'

[ShadowCaptain]

1 minute ago, Katorice said:

best part: Apple could, literally, torture its employees and fanboys everywhere will defend Apple's right to torture its own employees.

so if the US gov thinks it will make Apple "look bad" to the press or its fans, they are in for a rude awakening.

 

my money is on Apple winning this.

 

Thats complete hyperbole, nobody would condone apple torturing its employees 

also its possible to be an apple customer without being a fanboy

[FmPhenom]

6 hours ago, ShadowCaptain said:

They already are

 

5 hours ago, ShadowCaptain said:

They can, and they are fighting and refusing it, unless the US a prepared to shut down their biggest corporation

They cant shut them down but can force them out or take away the tax shelters apple has been using. I would like to see apple hold out info that has national security risks in other countries.

 

People do not seem to realize how good they have it in America.

[captain cactus]

1 hour ago, Real_PhillBert said:

I dont agree, there are hundreds of privately owned forensic labs in the US that are contracted by many different law enforcement agencies. If their data is admissible in court, so should an outside IT departments findings from an iPhone, or any other type of device. 

 

http://www.serological.com/

http://www.bodecellmark.com/forensic-solutions/

http://www.nmslabs.com/services-forensic

 

You're argument is based on the premise that the FBI has to procure the data for it to be reliable evidence, but that is simply not the case with the modern courtroom. 

 

You are correct that the process has to go through a significant vetting process, and validation; it is not as simple as copying the files over, I get that. However that does not mean that the government has to be the ones to pull the data. 

It's not about pulling the data, it's about the code required for that. Once that gets outside anybody can pull data from any device they can imagine, legally or illegally.

 

As for this: "I dont agree, there are hundreds of privately owned forensic labs in the US that are contracted by many different law enforcement agencies. If their data is admissible in court, so should an outside IT departments findings from an iPhone, or any other type of device." It doesn't matter. At all. Apple themselves can't get in, and that's exactly what the FBI wants: a way in. Again, it's not about the data on the iOS device, it's about getting into one.

[Real_PhillBert]

13 minutes ago, lots of unexplainable lag said:

It's not about pulling the data, it's about the code required for that. Once that gets outside anybody can pull data from any device they can imagine, legally or illegally.

 

As for this: "I dont agree, there are hundreds of privately owned forensic labs in the US that are contracted by many different law enforcement agencies. If their data is admissible in court, so should an outside IT departments findings from an iPhone, or any other type of device." It doesn't matter. At all. Apple themselves can't get in, and that's exactly what the FBI wants: a way in. Again, it's not about the data on the iOS device, it's about getting into one.

Just because the code exists does make it publicly available. The firmware update would only be pushed to very specific devices which law enforcement has on hand, and would no longer be publicly available. 

 

The bolded is not entirely true. Apple my not be able to get into it with the current IOS on the device but with a firmware update that Apple CAN create, the device would be much more susceptible to simply brute forcing the password. Once this firmware update was pushed to the specific device, you could hook the device to a computer that simply endlessly inputs potential passwords/passcodes until the device unlocks. 

[captain cactus]

26 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

Just because the code exists does make it publicly available. The firmware update would only be pushed to very specific devices which law enforcement has on hand, and would no longer be publicly available. 

 

The bolded is not entirely true. Apple my not be able to get into it with the current IOS on the device but with a firmware update that Apple CAN create, the device would be much more susceptible to simply brute forcing the password. Once this firmware update was pushed to the specific device, you could hook the device to a computer that simply endlessly inputs potential passwords/passcodes until the device unlocks. 

The code will be publicly available with the steps I described earlier, which is what needs to be done in order for this code to be lawfully used. You seem to miss that very specific piece of information. So many people will have access to the code that there's no chance in hell someone will make a copy and then reverse engineer it into something that can be easily installed onto any iOS 8+ device (looking at you, FBI). To clarify that for you, that's the iPhone 4S and later, 5th gen iPod touch and later and finally the iPad 2 and later.

 

As for the bolded part: at this point Apple can not get into an iDevice running iOS 8 or later. The code they have to create in order to do that is the very code the FBI wants to see created, and it's also the very code that has to go trough all the steps as mentioned earlier, and it's also the very code Apple does not want to create simply because of the bad guys out there (the FBI's one of those) and the inevitable bad things that can and will happen once that code gets created. 

[stconquest]

Is it not important that the government is effectively trying to force Apple to develop a process to accomplish the FBI's goal?  I really find that troubling.  "You must work for us".  There is no way in hell Apple has to do it.  The supreme court should shoot that down without a hitch.

[Katorice]

2 hours ago, ShadowCaptain said:

 

Thats complete hyperbole, nobody would condone apple torturing its employees 

also its possible to be an apple customer without being a fanboy

of course its hyperbole.

and of course you can be an apple customer without being a fanboy.

 

should rename to "Cpt.Obvious"

[ShadowCaptain]

5 minutes ago, Katorice said:

of course its hyperbole.

and of course you can be an apple customer without being a fanboy.

 

should rename to "Cpt.Obvious"

 

Then it was pointless to add to the discussion

[Stadin6]

9 hours ago, Ykno said:

 

do terriorst deserve humans rights

yes. they are still human.

+ if some group doesn't deserve human rights. "bad" people will be labeled to be in that group. 

[ShadowCaptain]

16 minutes ago, Stadin6 said:

yes. they are still human.

+ if some group doesn't deserve human rights. "bad" people will be labeled to be in that group. 

Yup, and one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter

Plus there are reasons they are like they are, many of them CAUSED by the US

But thats a WHOLE differnet topic

[Yoinkerman]

Eh I don't think the fbi can force apple to do anything, the district courts and eventually the supreme court maybe.

[Trik'Stari]

10 hours ago, Admiral Naismith said:

I believe we may be witnessing one of the most important legal battles in our lives if this continues where I think it may go. The FBI could hardly be more blatant with what they're doing. They're bringing one of the best known and powerful tech companies into a battle where the public will be looking in their closet of skeletons.

Being covered up, with the presidential election.

 

[Slyhawk]

11 hours ago, astranger200 said:

straya mate. we are the best

 

Not at all we have a nanny government that's getting influenced by other countries to fall in line.

[astranger200]

39 minutes ago, Slyhawk said:

Not at all we have a nanny government that's getting influenced by other countries to fall in line.

thats true

[aisle9]

12 hours ago, Ykno said:

how long till the FBI brand apple as terrorst for helping the terrorst by stoping one being convicted

i get it i understand apples logic behind it with not wanting to do it but for the sake of convicting a terrorist its worth it if i mean saving lifes and help to get possible leads to more terroist then i think then need to swallow there pride build this unlock key and then patch it in there next ios update so that it wont work again

This isn't a one-shot deal. This is Pandora's box. If they do this, the FBI (and any other law enforcement or pseudo-enforcement agency) will have precedent on their side when they go to Apple and demand that a phone, computer, tablet, whatever be unlocked because "national security". Also, Apple would have to write a custom firmware and hand it to the FBI. You don't think government experts wouldn't sit around and analyze new OSes from Apple, adapting that original software as they see fit?

 

Here's a clue: the NSA could easily have cracked this phone by now. They haven't for two reasons: one, they know there's nothing useful on it, and two, they want to force Apple to do it for them. What stronger "we control you" message could they send to us peons other than making the most ubiquitous American tech firm bend over and take it up the tailpipe?

11 hours ago, Ykno said:

im not sure where thats relivent to what i said? i said we live in a dictatorship didnt say we live in a bad one or a good one im just saying someone is dictating our lives

Erm, no. That's not how this whole "American government" thing works. Not yet, anyway.

10 hours ago, Ykno said:

Right people you know i was fucking about right?

i was just sayign anything i could think of that was stupid enough to spark a reaction but still beliveable lol as my day at work is going slow.

 

What i really belive is:

 

Apple should give the back door to the FBI if they the FBI can prove that it will be used once and destroyed so maybe a Apple engineer work on the phoen while a FBI agent sits next him to veiw the info but has no control on the device or a one time back door that gets patched in a update as soon as FBI is done so that backdoor cant be leaked out and hurt other peoples privacy.

but if not Apple should stand by there views but as long as there willing to take the reprecusions of that terroist walking free. (if the only evidience that the terriorts can be convicet on is on that phone)

but i stand by what will be will be and we should all stop worry about this and just let it play out and see what happens.

1. How is the FBI going to prove that it will be "used once and destroyed", hm? A pinkie-swear? Even if your hypothetical "no-touch" scenario happened, it still gives the federal government legal precedent to say, "Unlock this phone for us." And if you think warrants are a safeguard against that, I encourage you to read up on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. They're the judicial entity that secretly rubber stamps any warrant request made by the NSA, FBI, DEA, whatever, that the agency doesn't want to be officially on the record anywhere, ever.

 

I would sooner let terrorists walk free than strip the basic rights of 365,000,000 people.

9 hours ago, suxen said:

This is why the "USA USA USA" should VOTE DEMOCRAT.

Secretary Clinton is no friend of privacy advocates.

9 hours ago, Suika said:

I'm pretty sure the Democratic party is in favor of government intervention and satefy of citizens - e.g. Pro FBI in this fight. The Conservative party is more geared towards giving private businesses more power, but then again the conservative party is rather diverse.

 

This is why the USA should vote Libertarian. 

Bingo. Gold star for you.

[BHS4K]

I agree with Apple and all about keeping IOS secure but why can't they just make an exploit that'll have to match with the iPhone's serial #

 

EDIT: just read Tim Cooks letter and now it makes sense not to

[Suika]

1 hour ago, aisle9 said:

Secretary Clinton is no friend of privacy advocates.

Unless you're talking about her privacy. Nobody has the right to know about her e-mails.

[FmPhenom]

Funny thing about the whole situation is that apple is fooling most people into thinking they are not going along with the FBIs request for a exploit for the sake of the owners privacy. BULLSHIT.

 

They are not going along because if they make the backdoor (or whatever you want to call it) they will loose sales because mass hysteria from dumbfucks (apple fans) will kick in. The negative press will make them loose .05% of sales for 30 minutes. Apple cant have that.

[stconquest]

49 minutes ago, Suika said:

Unless you're talking about her privacy. Nobody has the right to know about her e-mails.

...or the transcripts of her many $200,000+ lectures to financial institutions.

[TechGod]

15 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Especially you

 

Of course I was overemphasising to make a point, its upto you what you choose to use but why would you choose to buy an Apple?

 

Still that's a whole different topic

Plenty of reasons that don't make me a tech illiterate plebeian like how some me members here like to think of Apple users. 

[Bensemus]

1 hour ago, FmPhenom said:

Funny thing about the whole situation is that apple is fooling most people into thinking they are not going along with the FBIs request for a exploit for the sake of the owners privacy. BULLSHIT.

 

They are not going along because if they make the backdoor (or whatever you want to call it) they will loose sales because mass hysteria from dumbfucks (apple fans) will kick in. The negative press will make them loose .05% of sales for 30 minutes. Apple cant have that.

So the precedent it will set has nothing to do with it? No company could ever think about something other than money right? All the other companies also supporting Apple are also doing it to keep their customers happy.

 

Apple is getting lots of negative PR about this. Polls in the states show that is not a popular stance to take. 

[lonewolf5460]

This is so historical and the fear mongering is unprecedented. The uneducated ones about privacy and technology are the prey and they are way over 90%. How many of us on this forum could succinctly say why its impossible for apple to do what the FBI is asking? The Doj is full of old geezers that probably saw the wright brothers fly the first plane and they are going to decide our fate on this issue which requires deep understanding of cryptography, programing and how computer chips are fundamentally made and their microcode?? People spent decades in this field it is not even a generation old yet!! This is a new frontier basically and these judges will set precedence which is everything when it come to law in the US. This disgusts me because I have little faith in this going anyway that a good outcome will happen ,I wonder how this would fly if jobs was still here. Between this case and Trump running for office I can understand how a whole country Germany could be riled up to do unspeakable things, I am just waiting for the call for Muslim camps. If that happens I am going home to Jamaica I am Indian white and black mixed and after 9/11 you know how many fights i got in for people calling me sand nigger in front of teachers even and they knew I was Jamaican just because of my skin color and they stayed silent, as humans fear followed by ignorance is our biggest weakness period. Muslim Americans must be on edge right now just because of some extremists that claim to be of the same faith the Quran says the exact opposite of what these extremists do. These poor people are being rolled in with them the Quran says basically to accept others beliefs and not to not push yours and not to kill. Its just like christian extremist picking and choosing from the bible. I swear this is the biggest ignorance parade religion, technology, politics, national security with huge a dollop of fear this is orwellian.

[Speedyv]

16 hours ago, ShadowCaptain said:

They already are

 

And people will still buy iPhones haha

 

I love it

[lonewolf5460]

27 minutes ago, Bensemus said:

So the precedent it will set has nothing to do with it? No company could ever think about something other than money right? All the other companies also supporting Apple are also doing it to keep their customers happy.

 

Apple is getting lots of negative PR about this. Polls in the states show that is not a popular stance to take. 

Exactly lets keep the tin foil hat stuff away. The ignorance is strong I dont think many people see how the dominoes could fall, especially in this state of fear the US is in now. People are just accepting it without thinking and processing the consequences I have never seen people act like sheep like this before it scares the crap out of me. Every one I talk to 90% say the same thing apple should hand it over national security, the FBI feels like the gestapo to me right now. If another terrorist act happens anywhere near this level anytime in the near futre I fear for Muslim Americans and this country on a whole. We are at a teetering point as a nation.

[VicBar]

What I think everyone can agree on, and I haven't seen really mentioned anywhere, is that this is the BEST marketing campaign Apple could ever want, especially because it is absolutely FREE. And let's remember that Apple relies only very heavily on it's IMAGE.

Full disclosure, I hate Apple, I have had Apple products. More than for the sake of its costumers and privacy overall they will surely drag this out as much as possible because if their phones look to be "FBI-proof" at least while the discussion is on, and if it wins, is the best implied brand logo they could have ever wanted.

I think not allowing full availability of the information of terrorists for study is inexcusible. That being said I do fear terribly for the precedent this could set if Apple would be forced. Though I would never have an iPhone.... but the precedent... could be Android next or smth....