FBI 'could force Apple to hand over private key'

[Ykno]

19 minutes ago, ShadowCaptain said:

ITS JUST A PRANK BRO

AGHHH!! FROGS!!

[Sir Asvald]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stconquest]

20 minutes ago, Ykno said:

i think you have me wrong mate and are msitake my early post of me fucking with eveyone as my real feelings.

 

The FBI will not learn anything useful from this phone. -: ( you dont know that have you seen the phone? no but just like the FBI dont no there is anything on it but still worth a look if it leads to taking one more terroist off the streets thats still 1 less threat even if there is millions)

This is a campaign to get stupid people to support the government effort to stop terrorism.  The government will NEVER stop terrorism -: i dont not believe terriosim can be stopped but i do not belive this a campaign to get stupid people to support the goverment i belive this is a goverment effort to throw everythign they have no matter how small or big to try and win a war they can not and will not win.

What it can do is make dummies believe it is capable of doing so -: i hear that look at what 9/11 did to america/the world

Just wow.  I am definitely not your mate.

 

I don't think I can help you.

[Real_PhillBert]

I think there might actually be a common ground on this issue that no one seems to be discussing. Perhaps I am very naive but if the FBI has a warrant for your bank records, your bank will cooperate with the FBI and hand over your records, however they wont give the FBI the "keys" to everyone's banking records.

 

I don't really understand why the FBI is demanding the "key" in this situation instead of allowing Apple to hold onto the key and only getting apple to unlock phones that they have a warrant for. 

 

IMHO Apple should offer to make the firmware update that allows the phone to be bruteforced but keep it in house. Then if/when the FBI (or any other LE group) approaches them with an iPhone they can extract the info from it. This way there is no 4th amendment issue as the LE group still needs to get a warrant for the info, and the LE agencies dont have immediate access to your personal data. 

[Ykno]

14 minutes ago, stconquest said:

Just wow.  I am definitely not your mate.

 

I don't think I can help you.

dont need you help ? i was agreeing with you yet im still wrong hmm i suspect you dont know up or down and even remember what you say! and also mate im not calling you my mate you american by any chance? as you dont seem to get that mate is a term used in general to discribe a person for example:

if i was to say well done i could be like: well done john! but if i didnt know you name i would say well done mate or well done dude or well done bro its a term quite widely used to add a more personal touch to a sentence like i would say cheers dude to my boss who is a female so clearly not a dude but everyone understand thats a term of enderment and help give a personal touch to that sentence and make that person feel more like there beign directly spoken to as adverse to just beign sent a email for example

 

anyways

thats my veiw at end day.

 

i dont see a issue with either sides arguments, i dont care about either side, i dont care about the outcome, it just not my place and me bitching and moaning wont change what will happen so im just going to let it be.

[Ykno]

3 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

I think there might actually be a common ground on this issue that no one seems to be discussing. Perhaps I am very naive but if the FBI has a warrant for your bank records, your bank will cooperate with the FBI and hand over your records, however they wont give the FBI the "keys" to everyone's banking records.

 

I don't really understand why the FBI is demanding the "key" in this situation instead of allowing Apple to hold onto the key and only getting apple to unlock phones that they have a warrant for. 

 

IMHO Apple should offer to make the firmware update that allows the phone to be bruteforced but keep it in house. Then if/when the FBI (or any other LE group) approaches them with an iPhone they can extract the info from it. This way there is no 4th amendment issue as the LE group still needs to get a warrant for the info, and the LE agencies dont have immediate access to your personal data. 

Finally someone normal !

[suxen]

2 hours ago, Admiral Naismith said:

I believe we may be witnessing one of the most important legal battles in our lives if this continues where I think it may go. The FBI could hardly be more blatant with what they're doing. They're bringing one of the best known and powerful tech companies into a battle where the public will be looking in their closet of skeletons.

This.

 

Supreme court here we come.  This disgusts me.  

 

Let's hope Apple begin releasing continent specific iOS OS's.  I live in Ireland.  Why the fuck should the FBI hold  a key to acces my phone whenever the fuck they want.  Leave the "USA USA USA" in their own corrupt, brute force embarrassing bubble.

 

I wonder how far Apple will go, could threatening to leave the USA (thereby avoiding paying USA tax) be a potential option or is that just ludicrous?

[suxen]

18 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

I think there might actually be a common ground on this issue that no one seems to be discussing. Perhaps I am very naive but if the FBI has a warrant for your bank records, your bank will cooperate with the FBI and hand over your records, however they wont give the FBI the "keys" to everyone's banking records.

 

I don't really understand why the FBI is demanding the "key" in this situation instead of allowing Apple to hold onto the key and only getting apple to unlock phones that they have a warrant for. 

 

IMHO Apple should offer to make the firmware update that allows the phone to be bruteforced but keep it in house. Then if/when the FBI (or any other LE group) approaches them with an iPhone they can extract the info from it. This way there is no 4th amendment issue as the LE group still needs to get a warrant for the info, and the LE agencies dont have immediate access to your personal data. 

Ehh no.

 

Apple pride themselves on not having a key. Part of their marketing is that even they would struggle to access a users phone...

[Real_PhillBert]

5 minutes ago, suxen said:

Ehh no.

 

Apple pride themselves on not having a key. Part of their marketing is that even they would struggle to access a users phone...

I'm using the term "Key" as an analogy for a firmware update that would allow the phone to be bruteforced. I could be off on this, but I do believe apple has said they could do this, but dont want to because the FBI wants it pushed to all iPhones.

 

Paragraph #1:

 

Quote

The custom firmware that the FBI would like Apple to produce in order to unlock the San Bernardino iPhonewould be the most straightforward way of accessing the device, allowing the federal agency to rapidly attempt PIN codes until it found the one that unlocked the phone.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/03/there-are-ways-the-fbi-can-crack-the-iphone-pin-without-apple-doing-it-for-them/

 

[Suika]

The unfortunate thing about this situation is that if Apple wins this battle, chances are that unless the Supreme Court stays on Apple's side, the Judicial Branch will eventually, probably around the next major terrorist attack with attackers using mobile phones and laptops, pass a sloppy, poorly considered and written bill forcing all US based technology firms to give back doors into their devices, and fining each compay that doesn't comply.

 

I'm definitely on Apple's side, but the government is going to get what they want. Well, unless the people stand up against it and cry that the government learn their place in society, but that's probably not going to happen.

[RuffRuffmcgruff]

2 hours ago, ShadowCaptain said:

yeah its really a massive thing, possibly the biggest thing to happen in tech for a while, and certainly the most prominent case regarding device security and online privacy

this is kind of the decider, 

but Apple wont back down, I just hope people can see why its important, the US Govt (and people who can benefit from this) are just trying to smear Apple as the bad guys, somehow, by trying to uphold peoples privacy and security they are branded terrorist sympathisers, disgusting

 

Exactly mate, It's the same way Trump has become so successful as the same was with Hitler. Make yourself look like the good guy bring in built in patriotism to bolster your ranks and brand anyone as an enemy that stands in your way. It's a very very very clever tactic. If you have enough people following you whatever you say will be the truth for those people.

[RexinOridle]

People keep ripping on USA. We have the nice community of morons and racists in Canada too. They have nothing good to do. Too much free time and blame anyone but not themselves for everything else. Burden of the planet. Sometimes, 3 letter agencies look better compared to them.

[suxen]

13 minutes ago, Suika said:

The unfortunate thing about this situation is that if Apple wins this battle, chances are that unless the Supreme Court stays on Apple's side, the Judicial Branch will eventually, probably around the next major terrorist attack with attackers using mobile phones and laptops, pass a sloppy, poorly considered and written bill forcing all US based technology firms to give back doors into their devices, and fining each compay that doesn't comply.

 

I'm definitely on Apple's side, but the government is going to get what they want. Well, unless the people stand up against it and cry that the government learn their place in society, but that's probably not going to happen.

This is why the "USA USA USA" should VOTE DEMOCRAT.

[suxen]

6 minutes ago, RexinOridle said:

People keep ripping on USA. We have the nice community of morons and racists in Canada too. They have nothing good to do. Too much free time and blame anyone but not themselves for everything else. Burden of the planet. Sometimes, 3 letter agencies look better compared to them.

What?  This may as well be written in chinese...

[Suika]

Just now, suxen said:

This is why the "USA USA USA" should VOTE DEMOCRAT.

I'm pretty sure the Democratic party is in favor of government intervention and satefy of citizens - e.g. Pro FBI in this fight. The Conservative party is more geared towards giving private businesses more power, but then again the conservative party is rather diverse.

 

This is why the USA should vote Libertarian. 

[suxen]

2 minutes ago, Suika said:

I'm pretty sure the Democratic party is in favor of government intervention and satefy of citizens - e.g. Pro FBI in this fight. The Conservative party is more geared towards giving private businesses more power, but then again the conservative party is rather diverse.

 

This is why the USA should vote Libertarian. 

Thank's for the clarification

[captain cactus]

1 hour ago, Real_PhillBert said:

I think there might actually be a common ground on this issue that no one seems to be discussing. Perhaps I am very naive but if the FBI has a warrant for your bank records, your bank will cooperate with the FBI and hand over your records, however they wont give the FBI the "keys" to everyone's banking records.

 

I don't really understand why the FBI is demanding the "key" in this situation instead of allowing Apple to hold onto the key and only getting apple to unlock phones that they have a warrant for. 

 

IMHO Apple should offer to make the firmware update that allows the phone to be bruteforced but keep it in house. Then if/when the FBI (or any other LE group) approaches them with an iPhone they can extract the info from it. This way there is no 4th amendment issue as the LE group still needs to get a warrant for the info, and the LE agencies dont have immediate access to your personal data. 

Read this and understand why Apple can't keep it in-house: http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=5645

 

 

[Real_PhillBert]

33 minutes ago, lots of unexplainable lag said:

Read this and understand why Apple can't keep it in-house: http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=5645

 

Blog.

 

I'm not a legal expert, but there are a lot of jumps he makes in that post. Plus he never says why Apple cannot keep the tool in house, he simply draws the distinction between a key and an instrument. The only reason the post states that Apple cannot keep the tool is because the FBI is asking for it.

[stconquest]

How about the USA buck up and do what is needed: 

 

Ban all electronic devices used to communicate.  Ban all writing tools and the mass production of paper products.  Institute the mandatory use of muzzles for all it's citizens.  Anyone caught using hand gestures will be immediately deported or detained.

 

For the good of the people!

 

Fucking cowards.

[captain cactus]

19 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

 

Blog.

 

I'm not a legal expert, but there are a lot of jumps he makes in that post. Plus he never says why Apple cannot keep the tool in house, he simply draws the distinction between a key and an instrument. The only reason the post states that Apple cannot keep the tool is because the FBI is asking for it.

This is in your post: IMHO Apple should offer to make the firmware update that allows the phone to be bruteforced but keep it in house.

 

This is what the guy says in the blog:

Developed to forensically sound standards

Validated and peer-reviewed

Be tested and run on numerous test devices

Accepted in court

Given to third party forensics experts (testing)

Given to defense experts (defense)

Stand up to challenges

Be explained on the stand

Possibly give source code if ordered

Maintain and report on issues

Defend lawsuits from those convicted

Legally pursue any agencies, forensics companies, or hackers that steal parts of the code.

Maintain legal and engineering staff to support it

On appeals, go through much of the process all over again

 

How is this not saying Apple can't keep the tool in house?

 

Also, regarding "Blog": the guy knows what he's talking about. His CV is right in the 2nd paragraph.

[Real_PhillBert]

11 minutes ago, lots of unexplainable lag said:

This is in your post: IMHO Apple should offer to make the firmware update that allows the phone to be bruteforced but keep it in house.

 

This is what the guy says in the blog:

 

 

How is this not saying Apple can't keep the tool in house?

 

Also, regarding "Blog": the guy knows what he's talking about. His CV is right in the 2nd paragraph.

I dont think you are understanding what I mean by "In house" I'm not saying the code can never leave an apple building. I'm saying don't give the LE agencies the raw code, and ability to do this on their own. 

 

None of the reviewing process changes at all from Apple applying the process to the FBI applying it. The prosecuting party needs to defend their forensic methods regardless of who is carrying out the work.

[RexinOridle]

1 hour ago, suxen said:

What?  This may as well be written in chinese...

It's either Cantonese or Mandarin you English grammar.

[captain cactus]

12 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

I dont think you are understanding what I mean by "In house" I'm not saying the code can never leave an apple building. I'm saying don't give the LE agencies the raw code, and ability to do this on their own. 

Apple has to do exactly that. It has to be run by LE agencies, approved by them, verified that it works on multiple devices, then passed on to the defense of a suspect to make sure the code is not intentionally making them look like a suspect, etc. There's not a single chance in hell that that code won't go out into the wild while going in circles to the various people and then we're all fucked. If you want to do this by law, than these steps are inevitable, and the code leaking out is also inevitable.

[Real_PhillBert]

10 minutes ago, lots of unexplainable lag said:

Apple has to do exactly that. It has to be run by LE agencies, approved by them, verified that it works on multiple devices, then passed on to the defense of a suspect to make sure the code is not intentionally making them look like a suspect, etc. There's not a single chance in hell that that code won't go out into the wild while going in circles to the various people and then we're all fucked. If you want to do this by law, than these steps are inevitable, and the code leaking out is also inevitable.

I dont agree, there are hundreds of privately owned forensic labs in the US that are contracted by many different law enforcement agencies. If their data is admissible in court, so should an outside IT departments findings from an iPhone, or any other type of device. 

 

http://www.serological.com/

http://www.bodecellmark.com/forensic-solutions/

http://www.nmslabs.com/services-forensic

 

You're argument is based on the premise that the FBI has to procure the data for it to be reliable evidence, but that is simply not the case with the modern courtroom. 

 

You are correct that the process has to go through a significant vetting process, and validation; it is not as simple as copying the files over, I get that. However that does not mean that the government has to be the ones to pull the data. 

[Katorice]

6 hours ago, ShadowCaptain said:

yeah its really a massive thing, possibly the biggest thing to happen in tech for a while, and certainly the most prominent case regarding device security and online privacy

this is kind of the decider, 

but Apple wont back down, I just hope people can see why its important, the US Govt (and people who can benefit from this) are just trying to smear Apple as the bad guys, somehow, by trying to uphold peoples privacy and security they are branded terrorist sympathisers, disgusting

 

best part: Apple could, literally, torture its employees and fanboys everywhere will defend Apple's right to torture its own employees.

so if the US gov thinks it will make Apple "look bad" to the press or its fans, they are in for a rude awakening.

 

my money is on Apple winning this.