Why are Mods making this forum Ask Jeeves?

[colonel_mortis]

This topic is not about politics. It has been a relatively constructive topic about what we moderate as status update material, and I would like to keep it that way.

 

That being said, we don't allow political discussions because they almost invariably go down hill into mud slinging flame wars, and that toxicity then makes its way out of those topics and into the rest of the forum. Regardless of whether you were in the topic by choice or not, deciding that a member is ignorant/stupid/incapable of accepting when they're wrong/leftist/rightist/whatever does not transfer well into other interactions in other parts of the site. As such, those political topics would need to be moderated like all of the others. Moderating those topics, typically involves trawling through 10+ pages of sludge which was posted over the course of a couple of hours, and takes several hours (speaking from experience). I do not wish to do that, and I don't intend to subject any other moderators to that. As such, politics is outright banned, regardless of whether there is a tech angle.

 

If you want to discuss this matter further, send me a PM. However, given how unpleasant those topics used to be, to participate in and to moderate, and given that we are a tech forum, it is unlikely that we will be changing that rule.

 

No more discussion of the politics rule below please, but send a PM if you really feel that there is something worth discussing.

[TetraSky]

Got ninja'd by the Colonel.

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Trik'Stari said:

The thing that annoys me, is the locking of threads because "politics", despite the fact that some topics are VERY tech related, but also VERY political.

Can't do much about that. Politic always brings the worst out of people, you simply cannot have a "political discussion", regardless of the topic at hand, without the various beliefs butting heads, right vs left, etc.

Kinda hard to stay 100% objective about politics when it's about stuff we care (tech, games, etc.) and how it's primarily one very divisive government doing everything it can to fuck everything up the world over, in one country.

 

9 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

The thing that annoys me, is the locking of threads because "politics", despite the fact that some topics are VERY tech related, but also VERY political.

You'd be right about that in this particular case.

[Trik'Stari]

23 minutes ago, Hakemon said:

Precisely.  It's like going into a store you don't like and purposely complaining about it.  Then don't shop there.  Just like don't go into the post.  Heck, that's basically admitting to trolling which would be against the rules in of itself.

^ My point in a nutshell.

 

Like I said, I get that the mod staff has to deal with it and doesn't enjoy it. My only response to which is "leave it be and ignore it unless something actually illegal happens".

 

But I'm guessing I'm not in the majority there so we can leave it at that.

[Trik'Stari]

Just now, Hakemon said:

I honestly think it's sad.  I get what the mods are saying about anything political turning dirty, it does.  I can totally hold a respectful one, but I can't guarantee the person I'm debating with can themselves, and based on my experience, not many do.  It turns to mud slinging, personal attacks, which of course do nothing to actually discuss the politics themselves, but over how stupid someone must be.  (lol).

So I get what the staff are saying.  On the other hand, if someone doesn't like politics, you could just ignore it, but some people aren't actually capable of that and would rather troll I guess because typing is fun.

My point is that they could just ignore the mud slinging. Unless it devolves into threats, which are a legally different matter all together.

 

Idea: An Insult War thread. Nothing but non-stop mud slinging, just for the fun of it. Like a shit posting thread but even better.

[GDRRiley]

Just now, Trik'Stari said:

Idea: An Insult War thread. Nothing but non-stop mud slinging, just for the fun of it. Like a shit posting thread but even better.

that is half what the spoil the wish thread is

[Trik'Stari]

Just now, GDRRiley said:

that is half what the spoil the wish thread is

Let's go whole hog then.

 

I wish. No doubt mods would shut it down immediately.

[divito]

18 hours ago, Dravinian said:

This forum isn't so much a community of people who are together to have a laugh, chew the fat, feel like a part of something...but more a place where you can ask and answer questions, and read some tech news.

 

Everything else is apparently a Status Update, which I doubt many people actually read, I am sure I will be contradicted there before the Mods shut this post too, but I haven't read any updates in the months I have been here and I doubt I ever would...why would you read what one person has to say, on a forum that is designed to engage the whole community?  That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

I agree. I consistently see an interesting topic brought up, only for it to be deemed more appropriate as a status update and locked.

 

Status updates are buried on the bottom right-hand side of page, and I never go there for that very reason. Even if I wanted to sift through all the obvious updates to find certain ones, it's completely unintuitive and very bad UI-wise once you get there. On top of the fact that this is a forum, I want to see the responses and opinions of others in the community about the subject of the thread. I don't want to see it locked and thrown into a status update where there is no discussion. If I wanted status updates, I'd go to Facebook.

Yes, some things that get posted are more appropriate for status updates, but there are a lot of opinions or thoughts that start as a short OP, but are tech-oriented and that can actually spawn meaningful discourse. We, however, do not get that type of opportunity here as most things get snuffed before anything can really take hold or inspire another forum member. It has allowed the forum to run a bit stale. 

Forums I've been part of in the past highlight the power of community and diversity; when people from many areas personally, professionally, geographically, and philosophically can showcase knowledge, perspective, or skill, that spark further discussion. As a moderator back in those days, we set it up a few different ways, and the off-topic area became far more utilized than the subject that brought us all there in the first place, because of the community that arose.

While the forum was centered around a specific focus, our Off-Topic area was its own category that was further sub-divided. While you could really have any number of subdivisions, I'm not sure this forum receives enough traffic to do all of them. You could probably have a General (for anything unrelated to another section), an Arts and Entertainment (media, TV, sports, etc...), and maybe a Science and other technology (non-PC). Or you could simply stick with a single off-topic and see how things develop.

The other way to combat the status update issue was for us, as moderators, to focus on the interest ratio of the thread itself. Every thread will be slightly different but the guideline we focused on was 30:1 - views to replies over a 7-day period. If someone's thread was questionable as a topic to begin with, and wasn't generating interest or discussion better than 30:1, it would either be moved somewhere more appropriate or locked after 7 days.

It took a little bit of time, but thread quality vastly improved and 30:1, while not "burning" with activity, allowed it to reach enough extra eyes to keep discussion percolating and garner a meaningful reach. We also realized that even though we were moderators of the forum, if our users kept a thread alive (while adhering to forum guidelines), we had no proper rationale to eliminate that discussion regardless of what we thought of its contents. 

And as for problem threads in general, an additional way to deal with them is to have purpose-built threads for common "annoyances" and have stickied threads in the appropriate category. Not unlike "Post your battle stations" or "Linus Memes."

The main thing I've noticed is that people have simple questions, so forums like previous ones I've been with, there was a sticked Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread. People also, are excited to show off their stuff, so there could be a What did you get in the mail today? thread.

[SansVarnic]

@Trik'Stari @Hakemon and several others.

 

No Politics is a directive straight from Linus @LinusTech and Luke @Slick

They own the forum thus we enforce it.

That is where it stops.

There Is No Middle Ground On This Subject.

 

We have been fairly lenient on topics with mixed tech and political involvement. This can change. I believe we have allowed a certain amount decorum with topics such as that and we have tried to keep topic open despite political involvement by removing the undesired comments that could/would/have derailed a topic away from the core engagement, locking those that we felt could went too far and could not be recovered. The argument of whether you can ignore it or not is not up for debate or a considerable debate. I don't care if you want to see the conversation go south. I and those chosen to be Mods do not agree with sentimentality simple for the fact that this forum is meant to be a place of discussion about Technology not politics or is it meant to be a place to fill a void of social media. The core belief of this forum is simple;

 

Quote

• Ensure a friendly atmosphere to our visitors and forum members.
• Encourage the freedom of expression and exchange of information in a mature and responsible manner.
• "Don't be a dick" - Wil Wheaton.
• "Be excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted.
• Remember your audience; both present and future.

 

Now @colonel_mortis has instructed to discontinue discussing about the no politics rule in this topic, this thread is not about politics and has been derailed because of it. Discontinue or recourse will be taken.

 

4 hours ago, colonel_mortis said:

No more discussion of the politics rule below please, but send a PM if you really feel that there is something worth discussing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dedayog]

Yeah, cuz things like this need to clog up the forums...

 

 

[SpaceGhostC2C]

5 hours ago, TetraSky said:

 

I don't think I've said that  

[SansVarnic]

35 minutes ago, WI-FIultrasnoop said:

Simply be open to others opinions and don't force your own upon others, with that this rule of "no politics" may have never come to be in my opinion.

Let me try and be clearer if I can, it is not about being open to other opinions or forcing one's opinion. It's simple, no politics removes the entire equation of having to enter that realm. (just in case someone needs to see it.)

35 minutes ago, WI-FIultrasnoop said:

Q: Where can I post questions/queries about the forum? I thought it was forum information but it's unclear to me.

What type of questions are you wanting to ask? You may PM me if it is lengthy and derailing of this topic.

[WkdPaul]

@divito

 

People don't read the rules or the pinned threads and they don't browse the forum in general. If they did, we wouldn't be moving or locking so many threads.

 

We're also not going to subdivide the off-topic section. Many threads have arose into their own little subset of off-topic, and that's fine like this.

 

As for your last suggestion, it just proves what I said about people not paying attention ;

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/18688-show-off-your-latest-purchase/

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by wkdpaul

[SansVarnic]

On 7/29/2020 at 11:36 PM, Dedayog said:

Yeah, cuz things like this need to clog up the forums...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perfect example of a topic that can be seen as a Status Update post.

On 7/29/2020 at 11:37 PM, WI-FIultrasnoop said:

:facepalm: That's what the forum is meant for in my opinion.
Edit: Now i'm just confused by what you said in that thread vs here.

Edit: Now i'm confused about everything on this forum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I absolutely agree but like I mentioned before it is a one liner with no or seemingly no expectation of conversation or feedback.

On 7/30/2020 at 12:20 AM, BlueScope819 said:

Wow, that seems... harsh.

(the wording not the message)

It was meant to be. This conversation is becoming a broken record and has derailed twice.

 

Those that are being obstinate about their opinion heedless of the stated fact of position to the rules by directive of the owner may find themselves making a decision.

 

I won't be light hearted about this:  This forum and its rules have changed since I came on. I am still here because I care. I somewhat enjoy talking politics but I do understand that this is not a political forum or a place of discord, was not designed for it and certainly was not meant for it. I frankly do not care if someone wants to do it, it will be shut down as it ought to be according to the Community Standards. etiquette will be followed and as long as the CS is in its current form and any form it takes after today will be enforced. I was made aware of this when I brought on as a Mod and that is how I continue to feel about it. People come and go and as we get new members asking for tech help, I will continue to offer that help within my means and continue to "police" poor behavior as is appropriate within the guidelines that is laid out.

 

Those who have, do and chose to continue to abuse the forum will not have a place here.

 

I am now emotional about this subject I am derailing the op into a stance to stop chosen ignorance. I am going to bed and I may not return to this topic for some time. I may even stay from the forum for a few days to still my bias so I can focus on more important things.

 

The Mod and Admins have engaged in productive discussion on the op and it will continue to a point that consensus is taken to make appropriate changes on policy.

 

Please have a good night (or morning). I will see you all later.

Edited August 2, 2020 by SansVarnic

[leadeater]

55 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

but there are certainly avenues to add some humour in

Do I even make serious posts? 

 

55 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

"... oh great, who's left to lock this?"

 

 

 

As some input in to what I think has been discussed, not read a lot of the topic tbh, when I look at whether a topic should be a status update is when it's basically a single short sentence that isn't really asking or looking for input. While topics like that can lead somewhere, or people will just take it somewhere, consideration needs to be taken about the long term existence of that topic. What value does such a topic add to the community if the title doesn't indicate what is being discussed and reading the topic post gives you no insight either, could start out talking about why the sky is blue then 10 pages later random electronics found in rubbish bins.

 

There are a lot of sub-forums here as well as general discussion and off topic, so if you have something even slightly specific you want to talk about/discuss there is most likely a place for it and if not one of those two "catch all places", but there still actually needs to be a discussion point presented otherwise it'll be locked/treated as spam. Really it comes down to effort, there is a difference between "Hey I found this weird thing today" and "Hey I found this weird thing today, does anyone know what it is? What other odd things have people found?", one of them has more merit than the other to stay as a forum topic rather than a profile status post.

[Sauron]

19 minutes ago, leadeater said:

there still actually needs to be a discussion point presented otherwise it'll be locked/treated as spam.

Case and point  

 

Spoiler

 

[Guest]

I enjoy this forum and interact a lot. The mods do a pretty good job and always give the benefit of the doubt. We’re lucky to have the forum setup like this with lovely moderators. Wouldn’t change anything. 
 

[divito]

5 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

People don't read the rules or the pinned threads and they don't browse the forum in general. If they did, we wouldn't be moving or locking so many threads.

This happens in any online community, especially one where so many users are younger individuals that don't have the same introduction to forums the way those of us that are older had. They are products of instant messaging and social media, and some aspects are simply not intuitive to them.

However, as admins/moderators, it makes the job a lot easier if things are organized and structured in such a way as to help new and seasoned users of the forum. That way, those individuals who do read or have a proper section to go to can contribute appropriately and cut down on the moderation needed. 

It's always good to investigate what barriers exist or imagine yourself as a new user to highlight potential areas that can be improved to avoid the annoyances to the moderating team. For instance, I've always found it odd that the Car Enthusiast Club thread has been given more prominence than the Posting Guidelines or even the Welcome thread.
 

5 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

We're also not going to subdivide the off-topic section. Many threads have arose into their own little subset of off-topic, and that's fine like this.

As I said, the traffic here might not warrant further divisions. LTT would probably be fine with a single area, just some topics might not get the same kind of engagement if certain threads start to hit other pages.
 

5 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

As for your last suggestion, it just proves what I said about people not paying attention ;

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/18688-show-off-your-latest-purchase/

 

I thought I actually missed something for a second. It's not a stickied thread, so it has never really stuck out to me (also probably needs additional keywords, like order, package, receive). I don't typically go trawling multiple pages checking thread topics that might exist. But that kind of furthers my point.

If a new user joins and wants to share something, and that specific thread that fits their need happens to be on page 3+ at the time, they might end up contributing to the problem. Perhaps they even search before posting, but their search doesn't hit the right keyword or they're thinking in a different vein altogether to the title of the thread.


Overall, the setup and moderation of the forum have been solid over my time here. But the OP highlighted something that has perturbed me for quite awhile. There have been many threads that had generated discussion, or others that I looked forward to following/contributing to, only to find it get locked.

The sense of community is fairly muted because of the some of the rigidity of the forums and as a passionate person in regards to tech, and forums in general, that's been a little sad.

That being said, who am I to say anything; I've been registered here for four years and my engagement and contribution has been woeful. This isn't like the days in my late teens and my 20s where I could be super active. But I will try and do better and don't mean any disrespect in my comments.

[GOTSpectrum]

hey @Dravinian if you want to find a good community why don't you get set up folding? We have a great community thread were we talk about most folding but also have a good general chat too!!!

 

On a more serious note, Moderation will always be hard. Much like policing, or politics, or religion ect not everyone will agree. But for the most part the forum is active, is a great place to be and there have been some real good sub communities that have come out of the forum. Just look at the gun thread, or the car/motobike thread, the folding community, the LGBT community, 'show off your latest purchase', the meme thread, the game threads, oh and don't forget LTT discord too! 

 

Do I always agree with the Mods here, no, but that is just the nature of being human and having our own opinions. There have been a couple of times that after talking to a mod about something I have understood why they made the decision that they did. They do a hard job and afaik they are pretty much volunteers. 

 

An example as I know it, I am planning on building a smart mirror once I can go shopping again to get glass cut and go to the hardware stores. Below are two examples, the first is a status update and the other is a thread.

 

1. 'I'm planning to build a smart mirror soon and I think it's going to be awesome once I've got it done'(Status update)

 

2. 'I'm thinking about building a smart mirror. I have a general idea of how I want to build it but I am wondering if anyone else has done something similar. My plan so far is [explain the plan of the build so far]

 

How does this sound, have I missed something, can anyone help me in regards to what kind of glass to use. I'm not sure if my chosen hardware will be good enough, what do you guys think.'

 

Both are very short, but one is the start of a dialog, with information, questions, details, asking for opinions and advice. The other is simply a statement that really need no other input. My understanding here is that this is the difference between status material and posts. (I'm sure this has already been said on here but it's a long thread.

 

TL;DR Join folding and enjoy the forum. 

 

Happy folding!

 

Spec.

 

Spoiler

Yes, literally I wrote all of this to advertise the folding team! #TeamLTT

 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, GOTSpectrum said:

afaik they are pretty much volunteers

Pretty much? Alright who is getting paid and is not telling the rest of the team, time to go flip some tables 

[GOTSpectrum]

Just now, leadeater said:

Pretty much? Alright who is getting paid and is not telling the rest of the team, time to go flip some tables 

Well you guys get FP or something like that right? (maybe I dreamt that, idek anymore)

[WkdPaul]

3 hours ago, divito said:

For instance, I've always found it odd that the Car Enthusiast Club thread has been given more prominence than the Posting Guidelines or even the Welcome thread.

Pinned threads will be at the top if a recent reply was posted in it. Less people reply to the posting guidelines or welcome thread. But regardless, they are all pinned and will always be at the top, meaning people have to scroll by them, and apparently are ignoring them. And the issue isn't new, like I said in a previous reply, people using forum like a chat room was an issue 20 years ago. And like I mentioned, we don't expect new members to understand how a forum work right away, and so, we're always lenient when it comes to this.

 

Quote

I thought I actually missed something for a second. It's not a stickied thread, so it has never really stuck out to me (also probably needs additional keywords, like order, package, receive). I don't typically go trawling multiple pages checking thread topics that might exist. But that kind of furthers my point.

If a new user joins and wants to share something, and that specific thread that fits their need happens to be on page 3+ at the time, they might end up contributing to the problem. Perhaps they even search before posting, but their search doesn't hit the right keyword or they're thinking in a different vein altogether to the title of the thread.

All good points, but it was deemed that we have too many pinned already and it's not helping readability, still, it doesn't often fall back and is often on the first page and while a search might not bring the OP for this thread but will certainly return it's replies. Though adding tags is a good idea. EDIT ; there's already tags on that thread, and it's at the limit ... wasn't even aware there was a limited number of tags we could add! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Quote

There have been many threads that had generated discussion, or others that I looked forward to following/contributing to, only to find it get locked.

I personally am a bit confused about this statement (and you're not the first to make). Since this thread was posted, I've looked at the recent locks, and I could only find 1 thread that should've been left unlocked (that I locked myself) ... if there are that many threads, why is nobody reporting the locks and asking for a review? Many have said they were moderators elsewhere, and yet don't seem to bother helping? (member self reporting is the major way we can keep track of issues, there are thousands of replies every day, we mods can't realistically keep track of all of them, if something doesn't get reported, chances are we'll miss it).

 

So if there's an issue, and that includes moderation in the form of lock, move, or merges, please report it.

[PCGuy_5960]

14 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

Why not just let the people argue? If people want to argue and get deep into topics, why not just allow it to happen? Anyone involved is a willing participant.

Well, the primary reason is every single time it ends in pages and pages of just 2-4 users spamming the same arguments over and over again. This leaves no room for the rest to share their opinion or have an actual discussion that is more relevant to the topic. 

[divito]

35 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

All good points, but it was deemed that we have too many pinned already and it's not helping readability, still, it doesn't often fall back and is often on the first page and while a search might not bring the OP for this thread but will certainly return it's replies. Though adding tags is a good idea.

This is where Off-Topic being its own sub-forum potentially has some merit. Rather than fixtured topics engulfing page 1 as pinned threads, establishing a few categories would help alleviate some of that. But I understand if that's not the desired direction for this forum.
 

43 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

I personally am a bit confused about this statement (and you're not the first to make). Since this thread was posted, I've looked at the recent locks, and I could only find 1 thread that should've been left unlocked (that I locked myself) ... if there are that many threads, why is nobody reporting the locks and asking for a review? Many have said they were moderators elsewhere, and yet don't seem to bother helping? (member self reporting is the major way we can keep track of issues, there are thousands of replies every day, we mods can't realistically keep track of all of them, if something doesn't get reported, chances are we'll miss it).

 

So if there's an issue, and that includes moderation in the form of lock, move, or merges, please report it.

I cannot speak to why others may not be reporting. Perhaps they've tried before and were reneged, or the atmosphere they perceive is not one where they can attempt to challenge or inquire regarding moderator decisions. Also, members are aware of the level enforced and often chime in with "in before lock" sentiments which eliminate any possible meaningful discussion from taking hold; as in, "why comment when it's not going to matter?" even if there might be some merit to the topic.

Perhaps something similar to Tech News can be implemented, where users are warned/notified that they need to meet the criteria for their topic to be permitted. It will be additional work, but at least some interesting topics may result, while also helping educate some users to quality levels expected.

 

For myself personally, it's more about having done moderation for years across a few different websites and forums; I know what it's like to consistently be challenged or receive inane forum suggestions and would prefer to avoid becoming an irritant. Additionally, I don't feel I've been around long enough or active enough to proffer things in such a manner. 

 

Having seen this thread with sentiments similar to my own regarding forum activity here, I felt more comfortable relaying some of my thoughts and experience in the spirit of improving the forum. 

And point taken regarding general reporting. Perhaps if there is one takeaway from the thread for general users, it's that we do need to document or speak up and report to ensure proper communication.

[LogicalDrm]

So as I don't have time to reply when American raid of posts enters (while eating breakfast I only handle critical things) and during work day its mainly bot banning time (today has been quiet with just 3), I already lost my thought of things to say. Good thing @SansVarnic and @wkdpaul are mainly in agreement with my stance.

 

1 hour ago, GOTSpectrum said:

Well you guys get FP or something like that right? (maybe I dreamt that, idek anymore)

 

$3/mo isn't something anyone would see as payment for sometimes several hours of work per day. Referencing to what Mortis said about cleaning some threads.

 

52 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Well, the primary reason is every single time it ends in pages and pages of just 2-4 users spamming the same arguments over and over again. This leaves no room for the rest to share their opinion or have an actual discussion that is more relevant to the topic. 

 

Continuing with this. We don't just act based on report. Its best way to get post noticed fast and deeper review going. But usually report come after 5+ pages. Which need to be read to see where it all started, who are those to get notes about it and is it worth leaving it open. Good examples of these threads are COVID-19 (both previous and current), any thread discussing Apple or Linux, anything with slightest of political hint (the Blizzard thingy or Adobe's adventures in South America).

 

Of which we get to my other point. There was a thread where creationist and scientist were slapping each other around a bit with large trouts. It was prime example of something where two people of strong opinions/believes were discussing, neither willing to budge. In the end, which one you think were the smart one trying to de-escalate it? Best thing to do when discussion heats up and other person just doesn't listen is just tell them "hey, thats your opinion and I have mine" and walk away. If everyone would do that, moderation would not need to jump in. But usually its either two strong opinions having a fist fight. Or someone being wrong or armed with weak arguments trying to fight facts. In which case they end in situations where they have only three options. Admit defeat. Start circle from beginning with recycled arguments. Or start name-calling, attacking person instead of their arguments, or even calling moderators to help them.

 

But this starts to steer away from original point of quality of opening posts.

[GOTSpectrum]

28 minutes ago, LogicalDrm said:

$3/mo isn't something anyone would see as payment for sometimes several hours of work per day. Referencing to what Mortis said about cleaning some threads.

I'm just trying to make sure everything is as transparent as possible, this is why I said you guys are 'pretty much volunteers', because that is the fact at the end of the day. I was trying to point out that the mod team does a hell of a lot of work for what is basically no personal return to them. I'm sorry if it seemed otherwise. You guys do this for the good of the community, and I imagine in many cases for the LOVE of this community. 

 

As you know(and I hope everyone else knows too) I am not a mod, merely another member here, the only difference is, I have the fancy title of Folding Team Leader. But even with that when running an event I'm somewhat aware of the workload you guys must face. And I say somewhat because I'm sure you guys got it worse. I do see what the OP is trying to get at, and I think sometimes if given the same situation I would act differently. (I had a situation like this during the COVID event, and this has reminded me that I need to PM someone in the mod team about that for the upcoming folding month, but that is irrelevant for the current conversation, this is mostly for a reminder to myself.) BUT, that is the nature of the human condition. We all have our own views on things and they don't always align, that is the wonderful nature of having a community of people who share differing beliefs. 

 

One thing I do want to applaud is the fact that you guys have allowed this conversation to happen, I know of many other communities where this would have been shot down from page one. 

 

EDIT: @Glenwing with you being a senior moderator, can I get a PM from you when you have time to discuss the situation I have just recalled, thanks in advance.