Why are Mods making this forum Ask Jeeves?

[Dedayog]

9 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Perfect example of a topic that can be seen as a Status Update post.

I absolutely agree but like I mentioned before it is a one liner with no or seemingly no expectation of conversation or feedback.

It was meant to be. This conversation is becoming a broken record and has derailed twice.

 

Those that are being obstinate about their opinion heedless of the stated fact of position to the rules by directive of the owner may find themselves making a decision.

 

I won't be light hearted about this:  This forum and its rules have changed since I came on. I am still here because I care. I somewhat enjoy talking politics but I do understand that this is not a political forum or a place of discord, was not designed for it and certainly was not meant for it. I frankly do not care if someone wants to do it, it will be shut down as it ought to be according to the Community Standards. etiquette will be followed and as long as the CS is in its current form and any form it takes after today will be enforced. I was made aware of this when I brought on as a Mod and that is how I continue to feel about it. People come and go and as we get new members asking for tech help, I will continue to offer that help within my means and continue to "police" poor behavior as is appropriate within the guidelines that is laid out.

 

Those who have, do and chose to continue to abuse the forum will not have a place here.

 

I am now emotional about this subject I am derailing the op into a stance to stop chosen ignorance. I am going to bed and I may not return to this topic for some time. I may even stay from the forum for a few days to still my bias so i can focus on more important things.

 

If another Mod decides to lock this topic as it has run its course as I do believe it has, then it could be locked. This has done it intended purpose, the Mod and Admins have engaged in productive discussion on the op and it will continue to a point that consensus is taken to make appropriate changes on policy.

That said; I won't make that decision in my current state of mind.

 

Please have a good night (or morning). I will see you all later.

This could basically be summed up as "Costco says wear a mask in the store, don't fucking shop there if you won't wear a mask.  It's their store, their call. Not yours".

 

100% agree with.

[Uttamattamakin]

Why no politics?   

 

It's a deep dark rabbit hole.  Politics in a US election year make race relations, root canals, LGBT issues, or Tax law seem like good dating conversation by comparison.   

Reading over all of this I can only add one thing.  If LTT forums allowed politics here it would eventually lead to a controversy about  "How dare you allow that person to say that here!"  "You clearly endorse what they are saying by not exercising editorial control over post and censoring them!"  "They disagree with me about senile man B being a better president than slightly less senile man T!"  "They're Nazis!".  As the old meme says

 

Next thing you know LTT is making the news as a forum for "white supremacist tech bros" or something. 

This because this was funny and to lighten things up a bit.   News anchors can't pass test that senile man T was able to.  This little clip almost feels like the kind of interaction one would expect between Luke and Linus.  
 

Now per Godwins law this thread has come to a natural conclusion. 

 

Edited to add : This forum also has international appeal

 

To those of us in the USA our politics are interesting, to those outside the USA our election year politics make it look like we will fall apart... every four years or so.  Which is just how our system is designed.  In short it is not that interesting to non US people.   They genuinely don't get it from the federal structure of the US, to just how limited the presidents power really is, etc.  Which confuses people and confusion is uncomfortable and boring. 

[PCGuy_5960]

2 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Why no politics? 

Instead of typing all that, you could just say go on reddit and take a look. /s, maybe.

[WkdPaul]

33 minutes ago, GOTSpectrum said:

I'm just trying to make sure everything is as transparent as possible, this is why I said you guys are 'pretty much volunteers', because that is the fact at the end of the day. I was trying to point out that the mod team does a hell of a lot of work for what is basically no personal return to them. I'm sorry if it seemed otherwise. You guys do this for the good of the community, and I imagine in many cases for the LOVE of this community.

Yes, love for the community, that's usually how mods are selected (when a member is active, helpful, contributes, and reports issues, he's going to get noticed and could be nominated). As for the volunteer part, we do get one perk (access to Floatplane), and if we're lucky, a Christmas gift (last year, the mods that wanted, got one game, I myself got Jedi : Fallen Order for my PS4! , but appart from Floatplane, any perks isn't to be expected, especially if you keep in mind that we're forbidden to participate in any giveaways ... except when it's directed at the mods specifically, thanks @Den-Fi !!).

 

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As you know(and I hope everyone else knows too) I am not a mod, merely another member here, the only difference is, I have the fancy title of Folding Team Leader. But even with that when running an event I'm somewhat aware of the workload you guys must face. And I say somewhat because I'm sure you guys got it worse.

And thanks for that! Honestly, it's people like you (and many others) that help build this community ! BTW, don't worry about our workload during those events, it's something to be expected, just like when there's a giveaway or an upcoming LTT event, it's part of the "job", what counts is the community involvement and support.

 

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One thing I do want to applaud is the fact that you guys have allowed this conversation to happen, I know of many other communities where this would have been shot down from page one. 

Any critics and commentary is welcomed (as long as it follows the CS and is respectful), just like we don't lock threads that criticize Linus or LMG in general. Linus is pretty clear on that ; we need to let the people express themselves (relating to criticizing LMG, including the forum, if it's criticizing another YTber, that's different). And when possible, we (or LMG) do accommodate. I won't comment on other communities, but here, speaking out about issues won't result in any backlash (in the contrary, because of this thread, one of OP's thread lock was reviewed and reopened).

[Uttamattamakin]

5 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Instead of typing all that, you could just say go on reddit and take a look. /s, maybe.

Yeah but couldn't you say that about anything.  

Why come here to talk tech with other fans of LTT.... You Tube's comments section under each video is like a mini forum where we can talk all we want about almost anything.   With almost no moderation right. 

Oh there is one thing... years and years of LTT Asking us to come to their forums! 

 

For any subject we talk about here there is some webpage, forum, or even actual IRL groups of people near us who talk about it.  (i.e. It's like saying  "Why talk about Linux just go to your local Linux User Group or subscribe to the developers mailing list.  RTFM newbs!") 

[PCGuy_5960]

1 minute ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Yeah but couldn't you say that about anything.  

Why come here to talk tech with other fans of LTT.... You Tube's comments section under each video is like a mini forum where we can talk all we want about almost anything.   With almost no moderation right. 

Oh there is one thing... years and years of LTT Asking us to come to their forums! 

No, I think you misunderstood my point. Most subreddits allow politics and especially right now they are turning into shitholes with half the posts being completely off topic only to "orange man bad" or "orange man good".

[GOTSpectrum]

15 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

And thanks for that! Honestly, it's people like you (and many others) that help build this community ! BTW, don't worry about our workload during those events, it's something to be expected, just like when there's a giveaway or an upcoming LTT event, it's part of the "job", what counts is the community involvement and support.

I have enough worrying about my own workload to do! I try not to worry too much about you guys because, well as you say it's just part of the job. I say a similar thing when people message me after events thanking me. It's just what I do. 

 

Oh and an edit, Mods can enter the Folding Month giveaways, it was brought up in 2018 and it was decided that it was fine.   So don't forget to get signed up and fold along with us for Folding Month 2020!

[PCGuy_5960]

16 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

last year, the mods that wanted, got one game, I myself got Jedi : Fallen Order for my PS4!

Wait wtf, I must have missed that. One COD MW pls 

[WkdPaul]

2 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Wait wtf, I must have missed that. One COD MW pls 

There was a Slack channel just for it!

[PCGuy_5960]

1 minute ago, wkdpaul said:

There was a Slack channel just for it!

[Guest]

he said chew.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Pretty much? Alright who is getting paid and is not telling the rest of the team, time to go flip some tables 

Time to form a moderator union? 

[Blade of Grass]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Pretty much? Alright who is getting paid and is not telling the rest of the team, time to go flip some tables 

[WkdPaul]

15 minutes ago, BlueScope819 said:

Gamecodes or bust?

Still waiting for my signed mod team t-shirt ...

[Blade of Grass]

22 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Still waiting for my signed mod team t-shirt ...

@Slick is this... PTSD?

[Beerzerker]

1 hour ago, wkdpaul said:

Still waiting for my signed mod team t-shirt ...

It's a lie - You never get the T-Shirt.
Been waiting for 10+ years and mine has yet to arrive.

[NZKshatriya]

Status update:

DId I miss something?

Is this not a free forum for discussion, which has a set of rules decided upon by those who set up and moderate said forum for us to use for free?

Are moderators not a volunteer position?

 

Would that not make complaining about said free forum for relatively open discussion be a bit, selfish/rude/self centered?

[Trik'Stari]

12 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Well, the primary reason is every single time it ends in pages and pages of just 2-4 users spamming the same arguments over and over again. This leaves no room for the rest to share their opinion or have an actual discussion that is more relevant to the topic. 

I am assuming I am allowed to continue this discussion, because a member of the modding staff is who I am responding to.

 

How so? Direct replies and comments create a link that takes the recipient directly to that comment or reply. Others are entirely capable of interjecting their own opinions or comments either into, or aside from, that argument. There isn't actually anything preventing either of those things, beyond the "clutter" aspect, which is both acceptable and debatable.

 

I'd like to be clear, I get you guys have a LOT of comments to sift through. I completely understand that. I am in no way, shape, or form, downplaying the amount of work you guys do. I'm actually arguing for y'all to do less work.

 

I'm just curious as to how an argument between multiple individuals prevents others from commenting? It's not like this is a chat room where a comment will quickly disappear and one will have to scroll up to see a lengthy comment they were trying to respond to.

 

So basically, "to keep clutter down" then?

 

BTW I totally agree in the area of threads that should be status updates. Although I do think there could be some good from a "General Chat" thread that is for just about anything that doesn't inherently violate the rules. Put it into Off Topic and call it The Lounge. Basically a forum equivalent of a chat room, for people who might want their status updates to reach a wider audience, but don't see the need to start a specific thread about whatever it is they're talking about.

[WkdPaul]

22 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

*snip*

Because, as Mortis said, toxic behaviour leaks out of those threads. Even without politics, we DO have toxicity leaking out of threads that we lock, it's just less prevalent in non political threads. You might not care about the forum atmosphere, and that's ok, but we would prefer that people aren't harassed because they didn't agree with X in an unmoderated thread.

 

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BTW I totally agree in the area of threads that should be status updates. Although I do think there could be some good from a "General Chat" thread that is for just about anything that doesn't inherently violate the rules. Put it into Off Topic and call it The Lounge. Basically a forum equivalent of a chat room, for people who might want their status updates to reach a wider audience, but don't see the need to start a specific thread about whatever it is they're talking about.

So, like this pinned thread ?

 

[Trik'Stari]

41 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Because, as Mortis said, toxic behaviour leaks out of those threads. Even without politics, we DO have toxicity leaking out of threads that we lock. You might not care about the forum atmosphere, and that's ok, but we would prefer that people don't have to get harassed because they didn't agree with X in an unmoderated thread.

 

So, like this pinned thread ?

-snip

I'm unsure of how to easily split a single reply into multiple quotes, so please forgive me for that.

 

1. Is that not an unavoidable issue, regardless of moderation practices? Realistically, in order to prevent it, you'd have to intercede before any recipient party reads whatever was said to them. Basically, if someone insults me to the extent that I'm going to comment on it on another topic, which is IIRC already a violation of another forum rule, someone deleting it is not going to motivate me to not make that reactionary comment, on another thread, which is why, again IIRC, that is already a separate rule.

 

2. I absolutely care about the forum atmosphere, I just think it's moving in a worse direction because of the stifling nature of the current rules. It is sometimes frustrating to be on here because of them. Basically I think the modding team is overzealous in the speed with which they will lock SOME threads, not all, but some. I'm not on here as much as I used to be, so I cannot say whether or not the majority of locked threads each day are deserving or not. But I will say in the last few months there have been a few threads that have seemed, at least to me, relatively civil, but because of a certain rule, got locked anyways, despite being civil. This would roughly be the stifling atmosphere I am referring to. If a thread remains civil, it should not be locked until it becomes uncivil, but as Mortis pointed out, that directive comes from up high, and there isn't much to be done about it otherwise. I just feel the need to speak this opinion and am glad that I am at the very least being allowed to do so.

 

Basically, I feel it's wrong to lock a thread that is both on topic and remaining civil, simply because it violates what I feel to be an entirely overzealous blanket ban on a certain subject that can entirely apply to the general theme of the forum (technology), that I am certain was enacted to cut down on the work, or ease the work, of the modding staff. Which, like I said, I understand entirely. Although I think it might actually create more work for you guys than it prevents.

 

Finally, I did not know that thread existed. Or simply did not remember it.

[WkdPaul]

35 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Basically I think the modding team is overzealous in the speed with which they will lock SOME threads [*snip*] but as Mortis pointed out, that directive comes from up high, and there isn't much to be done about it otherwise.

That kinda contradict itself  We lock quickly BECAUSE it's against the rules, just like we lock threads about piracy BEFORE people start sharing links (which they do if the thread is left alone).

 

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Basically, I feel it's wrong to lock a thread that is both on topic and remaining civil, simply because it violates what I feel to be an entirely overzealous blanket ban on a certain subject that can entirely apply to the general theme of the forum (technology), that I am certain was enacted to cut down on the work, or ease the work, of the modding staff. Which, like I said, I understand entirely. Although I think it might actually create more work for you guys than it prevents.

Again, we're volunteers, and as Mortis said, when political threads go sideway, it goes sideways in a spectacular fashion and is usually reported WAY too late and we have to spend HOURS cleaning all that. If you're willing to spend hours of your free time sorting through tons of pages of strawman arguments, insults, passive-aggressive replies, trolling, logical fallacies, and other toxic stuff, props to you. But I've done it a few times (as other mods), it's very taxing mentally and isn't something we're interested in having here. We HAVE kept threads open that while were tech related had a political side to it and just made sure the time was spent moderating it.

 

But like you said, this is something that came from Linus and Luke, so there's nothing to discuss about changing that rule (but feel free to discuss it with them if you feel the forum needs it). But if it does change and political discussions are allowed, I'll be stepping down as a mod (this isn't a threat, it's just that I personally don't want to deal with that anymore, and I'm sure there will be others ready to replace me that will have the fortitude for it ).

Edited July 31, 2020 by wkdpaul

[Trik'Stari]

21 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

That kinda contradict itself  We lock quickly BECAUSE it's against the rules, just like we lock threads about piracy BEFORE people start sharing links (which they do if the thread is left alone).

 

Again, we're volunteers, and as Mortis said, when political threads go sideway, it goes sideways in a spectacular fashion and is usually reported WAY too late and we have to spend HOURS cleaning all that. If you're willing to spend hours of your free time sorting through tons of pages of strawman arguments, insults, passive-aggressive replies, trolling, logical fallacies, and other toxic stuff, props to you. But I've done it a few times (as other mods), it's very taxing mentally and isn't something we're interested in having here. We HAVE kept threads open that while were tech related had a political side to it and just made sure the time was spent moderating it.

 

But like you said, this is something that came from Linus and Luke, so there's nothing to discuss about changing that rule (but feel free to discuss it with them if you feel the forum needs it). But if it does change and political discussions are allowed, I'll be stepping down as a mod (this isn't a threat, it's just that I personally don't want to deal with that anymore, and I'm sure there will be others ready to replace me that will have the fortitude for it ).

The only thing I feel the need to point out here is that piracy threads would be a legal issue for the forum, and not just a moral quandary.

 

As for the rest, I already made my points. I think it would be better to just emphasize that what happens in a single thread, is to stay in that thread, which as I said, I'm fairly sure is already a rule, rather than force the modding staff to slog their way through page after page of bullshit. Actually, I'm fairly certain that following someone to multiple different threads and insulting them constitutes harassment, now that I think about it.

 

But like you said, not going to happen.

 

I appreciate being able to at least talk about this openly.

[Beerzerker]

8 hours ago, NZKshatriya said:

Status update:

DId I miss something?

Is this not a free forum for discussion, which has a set of rules decided upon by those who set up and moderate said forum for us to use for free?

Are moderators not a volunteer position?

 

Would that not make complaining about said free forum for relatively open discussion be a bit, selfish/rude/self centered?

Yes it does.

 

The ones that complain don't have the worry of it on them. It's not like the mods have it easy clearing up the mess that always propagates itself and they do it because they want to (For now).
Lose these guys and you'll see the other side of things that would be if things are not kept in check here.

I'll say it again, a forum is by nature a dictatorship, not a democracy - In reality no one aside from the staff has any say unless they allow it.
Folks should be glad they are allowing it here but keep it up and that will change to the other side of it sooner or later.

Or as the old saying goes, you don't know what you've got until it's gone.

[PCGuy_5960]

7 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

So basically, "to keep clutter down" then?

Yes, I would say this is a pretty important reason IMO. Imagine you are here asking for help to decide between 2 GPUs and 2 guys start arguing and turn your simple question into 5 pages of walls of text that isn't helping you in any way shape or form. Idk about you, but that would be pretty demotivating. Similarly, why would I share my opinion and try to have a discussion in a tech news thread if I know that no one will see it because it will be buried by the huge amount of posts by the users arguing (and risk getting caught in the crossfire). Which is part of the reason why rules for politics n stuff are more relaxed in status updates (as long as it's nothing too controversial). 

 

Toxicity is also a reason, although I guess you could argue that those participating are willingly toxic to each other. But again, think of the impression this gives to other, perhaps newer, users. 

 

Kind of a more general opinion about political discussion in general: IMO, it is impossible to have civil discussion about politics (especially if we're talking about US politics) without heavy moderation, which also potentially introduces a lot of bias. If you want to eliminate bias and make political discussions as unbiased as possible, there should be no moderation at all, aka 4chan. (Which also invites a lot of the extremes from both sides, which is not really something you want TBH)

[RoseLuck462]

Let the topics stay.