Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Ryzen 4000 Mobile bottleneck concerns rise as PCIe is allegedly limited to 8x

Go to solution Solved by Djole123,

Edit: I just now realise the insignificance of the issue. It'll probably only affect like 3% of the Ryzen userbase.

 

I should probably stop reading Wccftech.

A slide from an internal AMD engineering team has surfaced courtesy of Igor's Lab showing that Renoir mobile CPUs may have a PCIe bandwith limit of just 4-8x, leaving a tight spot for GPUs like the RTX 2060S and higher.

 

113936160_954401865031178_8457159904871582057_n-1030x557.thumb.png.a05c3fdcdad3c30e7a912a2c245ee45c.png

 

Quote

AMD Renoir 'mobility' SoC utilizes only 8 PCIe 3.0 lanes for discrete graphics, could turn the tide towards Intel TGL-based gaming laptops in the high-end segment

 

Interestingly, this limitation does not apply to desktop (AM4-based) Renoir SOC as confirmed by Robert Hallock. The reason appears to be that while the AM4-based platform has access to 16 lanes of PCIe 3.0, the mobility platform is using a crippled version of the SoC for energy efficiency purposes and will only be able to utilize 8 lanes for a dedicated GPU. 

Although there still is enough headroom for mid tier GPUs, it is still a shame that it's stripped down when compared to desktop and Intel equivalents. Power users may still have to wait for either next gen Ryzens or just settle for an Intel CPU, albeit at a significant cost.

 

Source:

https://wccftech.com/amd-renoir-mobility-pcie-3-0-limited-to-8x-could-bottleneck-gpus-above-an-nvidia-rtx-2060-super/

https://www.igorslab.de/en/manufacturers-when-gaming-notebooks-in-the-clamp-ryzen-4000-apus-in-the-bandwidth-limit-tiger-lake-comes-first-with-only-4-cores-2/

Athlon X2 for only 27.31$   Best part lists at different price points   Windows 1.01 running natively on an Eee PC

My rig:

Spoiler

Celeronator (new main rig)

CPU: Intel Celeron (duh) N2840 2.16GHz Dual Core

RAM: 4GB DDR3 1333MHz

HDD: Seagate 500GB

GPU: Intel HD Graphics 3000 Series

Spoiler

Frankenhertz (ex main rig)

CPU: Intel Atom N2600 1.6GHz Dual Core

RAM: 1GB DDR3-800

HDD: HGST 320GB

GPU: Intel Graphics Media Accelerator (GMA) 3600

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The 8 people in the world who would connect a 2060 Super to a mobile device should be expecting some kind of bottleneck, it's a very niche configuration. I don't see why this is an issue?

Main Rig:-

Ryzen 7 3800X | Asus ROG Strix X570-F Gaming | 16GB Team Group Dark Pro 3600Mhz | Corsair MP600 1TB PCIe Gen 4 | Sapphire 5700 XT Pulse | Corsair H115i Platinum | WD Black 1TB | WD Green 4TB | EVGA SuperNOVA G3 650W | Asus TUF GT501 | Samsung C27HG70 1440p 144hz HDR FreeSync 2 | Windows 10 Pro X64 |

 

Server:-

Intel NUC running Server 2019 + Synology DSM218+ with 2 x 4TB Toshiba NAS Ready HDDs (RAID0)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Are 4000 series laptop CPUs only using PCIE3?  Cos that image implies it.

 

EDIT:  Renoir is their desktop APU chips no?  They are based on the laptop chips but aren't made for laptops IIRC.

QUOTE ME IN A REPLY SO I CAN SEE THE NOTIFICATION!

When there is no danger of failure there is no pleasure in success.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Samfisher said:

Are 4000 series laptop CPUs only using PCIE3? 

yes they are iirc.

Wārudobītā

CPU: Ryzen 3 3100. Board: B550m TUF plus. Memory: 16 (2x8) 3200 cl16 Hyper x Fury RGB. GPU: Gigabyte Windforce 1650 super.  Boot Drive: MX500. Case: Antec NX500 (Quite crappy. :p) PSU: CX450. 

 

Hehe, Meshify c is a kewl case. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see an issue. x8 PCIe 3.0 is plenty for most graphics cards, there are another dedicated lanes for SATA and M.2, it's not like the x8 lanes are shared between everything. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am so very concerned about this insignificant limit of a mobile cpu having to deal with a larger gpu.

 

Stop calling affordable technologies with reasonable compromises bottlenecks.

~New~  BoomBerryPi project !  ~New~


new build log : http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/533392-build-log-the-scrap-simulator-x/?p=7078757 (5 screen flight sim for 620$ CAD)LTT Web Challenge is back ! go here  :  http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/448184-ltt-web-challenge-3-v21/#entry601004

Link to post
Share on other sites

igor is completely wrong here, when he claims this might be the reason we dont see high end gpus, the performance drop is minimal, still more pice lanes would have been useful for the desktop versions of renoir

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do laptops even have big enough anything to make them a serious option for games?    I mean they are currently great at gaming,  however if you are looking for 2080ti performance on a g-sync 4K super extra large scale immersive 3d environment with cup holders are you really buying a laptop?

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It probably wont even matter for nvme ssd even unless im wrong and pci-e nvme ssd run beyond 8x

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is complete bullshit. The reason high end cards aren't paired with Renoir in laptops isn't PCIe, it's a brand contract intel have with OEMs that dictates their premium models with high end cards use exclusively intel. Think Geforce partner programme. It's the same thing. That's why no Strix laptop with AMD exists or why no Aorus laptop has AMD. Or why we don't see MSI G series. Lenovo and HP have a custom version of that programme due to their size and they still have low end Legion and Omen laptops with Renoir but no XPS or Spectre to make up for it. Igor is being very disingenuous by claiming the issue is PCIe

Link to post
Share on other sites

Despite what intel apparently said to linus on the record, mid level management is under a lot of stress due to mobile. They're closing ranks and from what I've been told off the record, next gen Intel is focusing hard on mobile and desktop is basically going to be a back port.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

Despite what intel apparently said to linus on the record, mid level management is under a lot of stress due to mobile. They're closing ranks and from what I've been told off the record, next gen Intel is focusing hard on mobile and desktop is basically going to be a back port.

Mobile/laptop is the largest market and the one they have the strongest hold on so would be the one to focus on.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Mobile/laptop is the largest market and the one they have the strongest hold on so would be the one to focus on.

It's also the key to mindshare - that's why desktop is getting mostly left behind in favour of mobile, to quote, "by any means necessary". Server is big money but server adoption hinges on mobile popularity

Link to post
Share on other sites

One minute people are on the thunderbolt eGPU train, the next they're calling a gen 3.0 8x slot a "bottleneck". Which is it, people? Where was this massive concern when Apple announced their pro laptops with a glaring lack of powerful dGPUs and people said "oh well you can just use thunderbolt"?

 

If 3.0 8x over 16x makes any difference at all here (which I highly doubt) it's going to be in the order of 1%, which is lower than the variance we typically see even between equally specced laptops with slightly different cooling and power profiles. Plus, realistically, the price is never going to be so close that a 1% difference in performance is what tips the scales.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

What is scaling and how does it work? Asus PB287Q unboxing! Console alternatives :D Watch Netflix with Kodi on Arch Linux Sharing folders over the internet using SSH Beginner's Guide To LTT (by iamdarkyoshi)

Sauron'stm Product Scores:

Spoiler

Just a list of my personal scores for some products, in no particular order, with brief comments. I just got the idea to do them so they aren't many for now :)

Don't take these as complete reviews or final truths - they are just my personal impressions on products I may or may not have used, summed up in a couple of sentences and a rough score. All scores take into account the unit's price and time of release, heavily so, therefore don't expect absolute performance to be reflected here.

 

-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

Spoiler

A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

 

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

Spoiler

From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

Spoiler

A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

Spoiler

Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

 

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

Spoiler

Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

 

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

Spoiler

A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The only GPU currently that faces a bottleneck on PCIe 3.0 is a 2080ti and its by 2-3% when using 8x lanes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

First it was because they weren't prepared, then it was because AMD didn't give as much support as Intel so the process was longer, now it is because of PCI-E 3.0 x8. Also now that a laptop with a 115W 2060 exist there's no reason why you couldn't put a 2080 there without much effort, both would use the same amount of power anyway, and even if the performance wasn't good I really doubt that would be enough reason to not make the product at all, it wouldn't be that new for a more expensive product to perform not that different from a cheaper one, particularly in the notebook market.

In my opinion there's no GPU above the 2060 115W that makes sense on a laptop, as they're usually limited by the TDP anyway and aren't much faster so I don't care that much, but all excuses that are being made to not have higher end GPUs in Renoir Laptops is getting really annoying.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For now, fine. But if desktop has anything close to a similar limitation (perhaps due to sacrificing lanes by attaching the onboard gpu) I would be quite irrate honestly.

LINK-> Kurald Galain:  The Night Eternal 

Top 5820k, 980ti SLI Build in the World*

CPU: i7-5820k // GPU: SLI MSI 980ti Gaming 6G // Cooling: Full Custom WC //  Mobo: ASUS X99 Sabertooth // Ram: 32GB Crucial Ballistic Sport // Boot SSD: Samsung 850 EVO 500GB

Mass SSD: Crucial M500 960GB  // PSU: EVGA Supernova 850G2 // Case: Fractal Design Define S Windowed // OS: Windows 10 // Mouse: Razer Naga Chroma // Keyboard: Corsair k70 Cherry MX Reds

Headset: Senn RS185 // Monitor: ASUS PG348Q // Devices: Note 10+ - Surface Book 2 15"

LINK-> Ainulindale: Music of the Ainur 

Prosumer DYI FreeNAS

CPU: Xeon E3-1231v3  // Cooling: Noctua L9x65 //  Mobo: AsRock E3C224D2I // Ram: 16GB Kingston ECC DDR3-1333

HDDs: 4x HGST Deskstar NAS 3TB  // PSU: EVGA 650GQ // Case: Fractal Design Node 304 // OS: FreeNAS

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Meh really no concern about bottleneck there. 

Ryzen 7 3800X | X570 Aorus Elite | G.Skill 16GB 3200MHz C16 | Radeon RX 5700 XT | Samsung 850 PRO 256GB | Mouse: Zowie S1 | OS: Windows 10

Link to post
Share on other sites

Edit: I just now realise the insignificance of the issue. It'll probably only affect like 3% of the Ryzen userbase.

 

I should probably stop reading Wccftech.

Athlon X2 for only 27.31$   Best part lists at different price points   Windows 1.01 running natively on an Eee PC

My rig:

Spoiler

Celeronator (new main rig)

CPU: Intel Celeron (duh) N2840 2.16GHz Dual Core

RAM: 4GB DDR3 1333MHz

HDD: Seagate 500GB

GPU: Intel HD Graphics 3000 Series

Spoiler

Frankenhertz (ex main rig)

CPU: Intel Atom N2600 1.6GHz Dual Core

RAM: 1GB DDR3-800

HDD: HGST 320GB

GPU: Intel Graphics Media Accelerator (GMA) 3600

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

For now, fine. But if desktop has anything close to a similar limitation (perhaps due to sacrificing lanes by attaching the onboard gpu) I would be quite irrate honestly.

desktop will be similar sadly, ou will be limited to x8 for the gpu, x4 for m.2 and x4 for the chipset.

with the last apu it was fine as it was quite weak but on this one its significant bottleneck

Link to post
Share on other sites

...Don't Intel mobile chips only have 8x PCIe 3.0 for their GPUs as well?

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

if desktop has anything close to a similar limitation (perhaps due to sacrificing lanes by attaching the onboard gpu) I would be quite irrate honestly.

It certainly won't... iGPUs don't use PCIE and, even if they did, x570 and b550 already offer plenty of lanes to account for that.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

What is scaling and how does it work? Asus PB287Q unboxing! Console alternatives :D Watch Netflix with Kodi on Arch Linux Sharing folders over the internet using SSH Beginner's Guide To LTT (by iamdarkyoshi)

Sauron'stm Product Scores:

Spoiler

Just a list of my personal scores for some products, in no particular order, with brief comments. I just got the idea to do them so they aren't many for now :)

Don't take these as complete reviews or final truths - they are just my personal impressions on products I may or may not have used, summed up in a couple of sentences and a rough score. All scores take into account the unit's price and time of release, heavily so, therefore don't expect absolute performance to be reflected here.

 

-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

Spoiler

A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

 

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

Spoiler

From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

Spoiler

A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

Spoiler

Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

 

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

Spoiler

Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

 

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

Spoiler

A pretty good product, sunk by its price (plus the extra cost of the physical keyboard and the pencil). Buy it if you don't mind the Apple tax and are looking for a very light office machine with an excellent digitizer. Particularly good for rich students. Bad for cheap tinkerers like myself.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×