COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[Bombastinator]

18 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

In other words, the virus had peaked so any protocol would seem to be effective. There might have been a minor effect on a specifically common transmission point, but the face masks has always been more of a Net-Negative, outside of medical settings.

Spoiler

 

COVID19 is so highly virulent because of its surface persistence. Door handles are one of the biggest transmission routes, which is why the Stay-At-Home had some effect in high-density locations but otherwise was pretty useless in low-density regions. Several US States peaked before any Stay-At-Home or business regulation changes were implemented, and it's something we'll find in a few countries after all of the retrospective analysis is done.

 

The cruise-ship information always pointed to the nature of what was going on, but we didn't know what the mitigating factors or other details would look like. Basically, everyone in a high-density area is basically going to get it, only a minority will test positive and a small % will die that fit within a High-Risk Profile. Issue is that Profile is still somewhat vague. Over 65 & Kidney issues is currently the best understanding, but there's some definitely further granularity to it. Figuring that out will explain the issues in Italy/Spain, unless the European variant just happens to be slightly more lethal.

 

Up until the 1960s, there was random quarantines of people, families, houses, neighborhoods or even towns when an infectious disease came through. It's been fairly standard Public Health protocol for 100 years, and we're simply going to see it again. The Low-density areas are going to lack the early herd immunity, while the high-density areas will achieve it well before a vaccine is even viable to test. Thus you're going to get outbreaks in random locations regularly for the next 2 years.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that testing is always flawed, so understanding how flawed gives you a lot of information to work from. The level at which someone will test positive is above the level at which someone can have the virus and gain immunity. This is why any other means of population testing will show massive numbers. The high-spread/low-issue version of the virus spread globally through January/February. What caused the actual response looks, right now, more like the second-wave mutations, but it could turn out to be even a third-wave mutation by the time everything is mapped out.

 

One thing definitely to look out for, since Media be Media, is a lot of people are going to get sick with other things when everyone opens back up. That's just the nature of infectious diseases. Don't let it get to you.

 

 

No one knows why it’s so virulent.  The doorknob thing just like everything else is guesswork.  People are finding stuff out all the time though.  The point behind masks was more or less as a sneeze guard which the woman in the video has turned into more of a sneeze projector.  If it turns out microdroplets don’t infect people (which strikes me a s HIGHLY unlikely) then masks don’t do much.  Masks were never meant to help with breathing in stuff.  A mask and a respirator are different things.  

Edited May 6, 2020 by LogicalDrm
Added spoiler

[Stockholmes]

So, apparently a professor who had made / was very close to making a breakthrough in coronavirus research was murdered by someone who then killed himself. I don't know if we're allowed to discuss this, considering that it's pretty much conspiratory material but I'll post it anyway. What do you guys think? Just some loon who somehow knew what this professor was doing and murdered him for *reasons* or something else? Sounds pretty darn shady if you ask me.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/06/us/university-of-pittsburgh-professor-killed/index.html

[Commodus]

2 hours ago, Stockholmes said:

So, apparently a professor who had made / was very close to making a breakthrough in coronavirus research was murdered by someone who then killed himself. I don't know if we're allowed to discuss this, considering that it's pretty much conspiratory material but I'll post it anyway. What do you guys think? Just some loon who somehow knew what this professor was doing and murdered him for *reasons* or something else? Sounds pretty darn shady if you ask me.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/06/us/university-of-pittsburgh-professor-killed/index.html

They don't believe the murder was linked to the research, so I'd wait for evidence suggesting something more before leaping to a conclusion.  Sometimes an unfortunate circumstance is just an unfortunate circumstance.

[Bombastinator]

2 hours ago, Stockholmes said:

So, apparently a professor who had made / was very close to making a breakthrough in coronavirus research was murdered by someone who then killed himself. I don't know if we're allowed to discuss this, considering that it's pretty much conspiratory material but I'll post it anyway. What do you guys think? Just some loon who somehow knew what this professor was doing and murdered him for *reasons* or something else? Sounds pretty darn shady if you ask me.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/06/us/university-of-pittsburgh-professor-killed/index.html

The thing I notice is the large number of gunshots.  More than necessary to kill him.  This often indicates a crime of passion.  Research is a very networked thing these days generally, so it’s improbable though i suppose not impossible that specific research was badly impacted, especially since he’s an assistant professor.  The university apparently knows WHAT he was researching, so there’s that. 

[PhantomJaguarr]

Another panic buying phenomenon has reached me locally: Hoarding meat since news of Covid-19 outbreaks has led to shutdown of meat plants across the States. Some are “re-opening.” Hard limits are set on meat purchases at local stores from now on.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-06/u-s-meat-workers-are-quitting-as-virus-ridden-plants-reopen

 

Quote

America’s meat-processing plants are starting to reopen, but not all workers are showing up. Some still fear they’ll get sick after coronavirus outbreaks shut more than a dozen facilities last month. Employees are taking leave, paid and unpaid -- or just quitting.

[Bombastinator]

Another kinda stupid.  Meat is an FDA thing.  Sure we have safer meat than anywhere else in the world, and that may have been compromised.  Thing is meat is to some degree compromised basically everywhere else on earth to start with and has been for most of the existence of humanity.

  That’s why we cook it.  
Unless you’re on some weird raw foods diet it’s safe.  The most scary thing would be rare steak.  

Still safe.

Corvid can’t swim.  

It sits on the surfaces of things.  One good sear and all the corvid would be dead.  Now there have been a few plant closings, and that’s an issue that may affect pricing to some extent.  The problem is meat consumption has been falling in the US for years so prices were already in the toilet.   That’s why the plants that got closed got closed in the first place.  Cost cutting measures put workers at risk.  I could see meat prices going up 15%.  Probably less.

[Rakanoth]

"Majority Of New Coronavirus Cases In New York Are From People Staying At Home—Not Traveling Or Working": https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/05/06/majority-of-new-coronavirus-cases-in-new-york-are-from-people-staying-at-home-not-traveling-or-working/

 

Doomers about to start encasing themselves in a plastic bubble. Who could've guessed a virus was more transmissible indoors than outdoors? No one could have known. Maybe people need to be prevented from even leaving their bedrooms. That's clearly the only solution. Put a national guard member in everyone's living room to make sure no one walks out into the hall. 

 

I saw that there was a doomer that said that you shouldn't leave your bedroom in your house because the virus travels between rooms.

 

The majority of cases come from people staying at home.

 

But Cuomo says the antibody study is too full of holes because they took samples from people at the grocery store, who were "obviously not staying home."

 

Swedish scientist Johan Giesecke says that "gradually everyone is approaching the Swedish model": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CajLDNg-Fb4

 

"The Swedish model" so the natural progression of viruses? Where did people get the idea that full lock downs would ever completely stop the virus?

 

Antibodies he estimates last about a year which makes this so much more frustrating. The clock is ticking to get the herd immunity we need to move on from this. We should be applauding the young people going out and socializing but instead the shortsighted vision of reality so many people have see them as the enemy.

 

[Bombastinator]

2 hours ago, Rakanoth said:

"Majority Of New Coronavirus Cases In New York Are From People Staying At Home—Not Traveling Or Working": https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/05/06/majority-of-new-coronavirus-cases-in-new-york-are-from-people-staying-at-home-not-traveling-or-working/

 

Doomers about to start encasing themselves in a plastic bubble. Who could've guessed a virus was more transmissible indoors than outdoors? No one could have known. Maybe people need to be prevented from even leaving their bedrooms. That's clearly the only solution. Put a national guard member in everyone's living room to make sure no one walks out into the hall. 

 

I saw that there was a doomer that said that you shouldn't leave your bedroom in your house because the virus travels between rooms.

 

The majority of cases come from people staying at home.

 

But Cuomo says the antibody study is too full of holes because they took samples from people at the grocery store, who were "obviously not staying home."

 

Swedish scientist Johan Giesecke says that "gradually everyone is approaching the Swedish model": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CajLDNg-Fb4

 

"The Swedish model" so the natural progression of viruses? Where did people get the idea that full lock downs would ever completely stop the virus?

 

Antibodies he estimates last about a year which makes this so much more frustrating. The clock is ticking to get the herd immunity we need to move on from this. We should be applauding the young people going out and socializing but instead the shortsighted vision of reality so many people have see them as the enemy.

 

That’s a rather weird and bizarre conclusion to make.  The thing isn’t magic.  
This is totally consistent with previous statements about why isolation is important for more than those who isolate.  
 

the statement has NEVER been location, it has been close contact.  If a susceptible person lives with someone not isolating, they will bring it home with them.  Close contact with someone not isolating is dangerous to the susceptible.

 

One of the few things that we have learned and disseminated information about is that some people are more susceptible than others and those people are isolating harder.  If those people live with people who are NOT isolating though it doesn’t help to isolate because the people who are not isolating bring it home.  
 

This has always been what was said.  It never had anything to do with inside or outside.

[Andreas Lilja]

15 hours ago, Stockholmes said:

So, apparently a professor who had made / was very close to making a breakthrough in coronavirus research was murdered by someone who then killed himself. I don't know if we're allowed to discuss this, considering that it's pretty much conspiratory material but I'll post it anyway. What do you guys think? Just some loon who somehow knew what this professor was doing and murdered him for *reasons* or something else? Sounds pretty darn shady if you ask me.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/06/us/university-of-pittsburgh-professor-killed/index.html

Will the Clintons ever stop. 

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, Rakanoth said:

 

Swedish scientist Johan Giesecke says that "gradually everyone is approaching the Swedish model": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CajLDNg-Fb4

 

Hahahaha, yep but no.  some countries will be winding back to that state, some countries are winding up to it, but it is not a "Swedish" model, it is just another way of dealing with the virus depending on circumstances.  Someone needs to inform this "scientist" that what works in one country will not work in another.

7 hours ago, Rakanoth said:

"The Swedish model" so the natural progression of viruses? Where did people get the idea that full lock downs would ever completely stop the virus?

 

 

 

The media and morons on forums and social media.   Anyone with half a brain new from the onset that isolation is intended to buy time for countries that need it, not a cure.   Again, what works in one country will not work in another just because of what it is, there is too much difference in culture, law, size, population density, food infrastructure and health systems to try and put it that plainly.

[Taf the Ghost]

19 hours ago, Stockholmes said:

So, apparently a professor who had made / was very close to making a breakthrough in coronavirus research was murdered by someone who then killed himself. I don't know if we're allowed to discuss this, considering that it's pretty much conspiratory material but I'll post it anyway. What do you guys think? Just some loon who somehow knew what this professor was doing and murdered him for *reasons* or something else? Sounds pretty darn shady if you ask me.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/06/us/university-of-pittsburgh-professor-killed/index.html

Historically, the Murder-Suicide that really isn't a Murder-Suicide revolves around someone that either found Human Trafficking or Intelligence Agency dirty information. More likely a researcher than snapped, but who knows what else the guy might have found or been involved with.

 

In before his ran the local sex dungeon. (Really not a joke.)

[Taf the Ghost]

14 hours ago, PhantomJaguar77 said:

Another panic buying phenomenon has reached me locally: Hoarding meat since news of Covid-19 outbreaks has led to shutdown of meat plants across the States. Some are “re-opening.” Hard limits are set on meat purchases at local stores from now on.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-06/u-s-meat-workers-are-quitting-as-virus-ridden-plants-reopen

 

As a practical matter, because of the way many supply chains just work naturally, a small change in buying patterns can wipe out stocks. Very technically, it was a meme in Japan that caused the global toilet paper shortage. Shits been wild this year. In some cases, literally!

[RonnieOP]

20 hours ago, PhantomJaguar77 said:

Another panic buying phenomenon has reached me locally: Hoarding meat since news of Covid-19 outbreaks has led to shutdown of meat plants across the States. Some are “re-opening.” Hard limits are set on meat purchases at local stores from now on.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-06/u-s-meat-workers-are-quitting-as-virus-ridden-plants-reopen

 

Unless something changes meat is going to get scarce not because of panic buying but lack of supply.

 

I know three food distributors (the ones that supply restaurants) that are not selling meat since processing plants are shutting down 

 

Local butchers still have meat since they come from small farms but they are also more pricey then what alot of people will be able to afford.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, RonnieOP said:

Unless something changes meat is going to get scarce not because of panic buying but lack of supply.

 

I know three food distributors (the ones that supply restaurants) that are not selling meat since processing plants are shutting down 

 

Local butchers still have meat since they come from small farms but they are also more pricey then what alot of people will be able to afford.

 

 

It’s been coming for a while though.  Meat consumption is dropping and that demand drop has been affecting economy of scale.  It’s one reason processing plants had such poor controls to start with.  They were on the edge, and had been producing more and more questionable cost savings in an attempt to keep up.   This is making things go a LOT faster.  Months instead of years.  Your statement does not imply scarcity.  It does imply higher cost though. 

[RonnieOP]

4 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

It’s been coming for a while though.  Meat consumption is dropping and that demand drop has been affecting economy of scale.  It’s one reason processing plants had such poor controls to start with.  They were on the edge, and had been producing more and more questionable cost savings in an attempt to keep up.   This is making things go a LOT faster.  Months instead of years.  Your statement does not imply scarcity.  It does imply higher cost though. 

Meat consumption isnt dropping though. Its actually been going up the past few year. And the demand is still very very much there right now.

 

The problem is the plants are shutting down. Some of the top producing plants are shut down right now. To the point that they are having issues figuring out what to do with the animals in a lot of areas since they arent being killed for food.

 

High demand with lower supply...so not sure how that doesnt imply scarcity. 

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Meat consumption isnt dropping though. Its actually been going up the past few year. And the demand is still very very much there right now.

 

The problem is the plants are shutting down. Some of the top producing plants are shut down right now. To the point that they are having issues figuring out what to do with the animals in a lot of areas since they arent being killed for food.

 

High demand with lower supply...so not sure how that doesnt imply scarcity. 

Interesting.  Differing information.  That’s an issue.  Yours may well be better than mine.  I don’t remember where it came from.  Different measurements perhaps.  One may be more specific.  Than the other “this type of..” or “in this area..”

 

feedlots are going to have a big problem.  They can’t keep animals for very long.  Their conditions are balanced on the edge of intolerable for the animals.   The large producers are going to have to clean and reopen at reduced capacity to allow sufficient worker safety.  Which to be fair was a huge problem already.    Still won’t change the initial thing.  Less meat will be available.

[Commodus]

15 hours ago, Rakanoth said:

"Majority Of New Coronavirus Cases In New York Are From People Staying At Home—Not Traveling Or Working": https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/05/06/majority-of-new-coronavirus-cases-in-new-york-are-from-people-staying-at-home-not-traveling-or-working/

 

Doomers about to start encasing themselves in a plastic bubble. Who could've guessed a virus was more transmissible indoors than outdoors? No one could have known. Maybe people need to be prevented from even leaving their bedrooms. That's clearly the only solution. Put a national guard member in everyone's living room to make sure no one walks out into the hall. 

 

I saw that there was a doomer that said that you shouldn't leave your bedroom in your house because the virus travels between rooms.

 

The majority of cases come from people staying at home.

 

But Cuomo says the antibody study is too full of holes because they took samples from people at the grocery store, who were "obviously not staying home."

 

Swedish scientist Johan Giesecke says that "gradually everyone is approaching the Swedish model": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CajLDNg-Fb4

 

"The Swedish model" so the natural progression of viruses? Where did people get the idea that full lock downs would ever completely stop the virus?

 

Antibodies he estimates last about a year which makes this so much more frustrating. The clock is ticking to get the herd immunity we need to move on from this. We should be applauding the young people going out and socializing but instead the shortsighted vision of reality so many people have see them as the enemy.

 

You really haven't put much thought into this.

 

First: as Cuomo indicated, many people aren't literally spending 24/7 at home.  They have to go out to get groceries and medicine.  They go for walks or runs (allowed under most lockdowns).  They may live with other people who do have to go outside to work.  And yes, there are also stupid people who are flagrantly breaking the rules by socializing with friends or just being careless about their proximity to others.  Basically, the people taking your advice.

 

Again, the clear majority of people don't believe lockdowns will completely stop the virus.  You're attacking a straw man, and you will never make this false claim again.  This lockdown is meant to buy time -- to keep hospital capacity in check, to minimize avoidable deaths until there's a treatment or vaccine, to reduce the need for subsequent lockdowns.  Herd immunity from vaccination is far more ethical and smarter than hoping enough people get genuinely sick.

 

Keep in mind, in the US the projected deaths from a "do nothing" approach would be 10 times or more higher by the time the pandemic ends, at about 2.2 million.  That's not flu levels of deaths; that's "a large chunk of the population knows a friend or family member who died from it" levels.  And remember, that doesn't include people who survive but have their quality of life ruined by irreversible damage.

 

The scary thing is knowing that your mindset comes out of a combination of willful ignorance and ego.  You not only don't want to hear truths that inconvenience you, you're saying what you do because you're not convinced that you or anyone close to you will suffer more than a fever.  There's a degree of fantasy, too, where you act as if ending lockdown measures will flick a switch and make the world revert mostly to normal (just with a much larger obituary section in the paper).  Sorry, but that won't happen.  People won't forget that there's a virus floating around that's much more dangerous than the flu.  Ending lockdown prematurely won't make a full recovery happen sooner; it just increases the chances of the virus bouncing back and inflicting more damage.

[RonnieOP]

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

You really haven't put much thought into this.

 

First: as Cuomo indicated, many people aren't literally spending 24/7 at home.  They have to go out to get groceries and medicine.  They go for walks or runs (allowed under most lockdowns).  They may live with other people who do have to go outside to work.  And yes, there are also stupid people who are flagrantly breaking the rules by socializing with friends or just being careless about their proximity to others.  Basically, the people taking your advice.

 

Again, the clear majority of people don't believe lockdowns will completely stop the virus.  You're attacking a straw man, and you will never make this false claim again.  This lockdown is meant to buy time -- to keep hospital capacity in check, to minimize avoidable deaths until there's a treatment or vaccine, to reduce the need for subsequent lockdowns.  Herd immunity from vaccination is far more ethical and smarter than hoping enough people get genuinely sick.

 

Keep in mind, in the US the projected deaths from a "do nothing" approach would be 10 times or more higher by the time the pandemic ends, at about 2.2 million.  That's not flu levels of deaths; that's "a large chunk of the population knows a friend or family member who died from it" levels.  And remember, that doesn't include people who survive but have their quality of life ruined by irreversible damage.

 

The scary thing is knowing that your mindset comes out of a combination of willful ignorance and ego.  You not only don't want to hear truths that inconvenience you, you're saying what you do because you're not convinced that you or anyone close to you will suffer more than a fever.  There's a degree of fantasy, too, where you act as if ending lockdown measures will flick a switch and make the world revert mostly to normal (just with a much larger obituary section in the paper).  Sorry, but that won't happen.  People won't forget that there's a virus floating around that's much more dangerous than the flu.  Ending lockdown prematurely won't make a full recovery happen sooner; it just increases the chances of the virus bouncing back and inflicting more damage.

Lockdowns have already served the purpose. Continuing to lockdown now is just delaying the inevitable.  The only way lockdowns stop a second wave is if they last until there is a cure. 

 

Right now is the perfect time (in alot of areas atleast) to end lockdown. Get low risk people out in the sun and let them develop herd immunity so there will be no need for a mass lockdown later on. For high risk households...well they are in for the long haul. They should be protected until a cure arrives (which tbh we dont even know if there will be a cure).

 

Im no fan of the WHO but when their lead emergency expert comes out saying sweden had the right plan i think we should listen instead of wasting resources locking down people that have a better chance of dying in a car wreck then they do the virus.

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Lockdowns have already served the purpose. Continuing to lockdown now is just delaying the inevitable.  The only way lockdowns stop a second wave is if they last until there is a cure. 

 

Right now is the perfect time (in alot of areas atleast) to end lockdown. Get low risk people out in the sun and let them develop herd immunity so there will be no need for a mass lockdown later on. For high risk households...well they are in for the long haul. They should be protected until a cure arrives (which tbh we dont even know if there will be a cure).

 

Im no fan of the WHO but when their lead emergency expert comes out saying sweden had the right plan i think we should listen instead of wasting resources locking down people that have a better chance of dying in a car wreck then they do the virus.

Re: “already”.  implying they stopped.  If it’s just delaying the inevitable we all may be dead then.  Going from lockdown to zero makes the lockdown just a push not a modification.  Locking down till the virus is gone has been shown to be effective by China.  The only effective thing so far.  Makes it tempting.  There are people who will be too badly damaged by that though.  If there was ANY other hope at the moment I’d say do it.  The problem is right now lockdown is all we got.  The openers show a lot of signs of straw grasping and a willingness to stand on the heads of other drowners.   Both are not effective.

[Commodus]

27 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Lockdowns have already served the purpose. Continuing to lockdown now is just delaying the inevitable.  The only way lockdowns stop a second wave is if they last until there is a cure. 

 

Right now is the perfect time (in alot of areas atleast) to end lockdown. Get low risk people out in the sun and let them develop herd immunity so there will be no need for a mass lockdown later on. For high risk households...well they are in for the long haul. They should be protected until a cure arrives (which tbh we dont even know if there will be a cure).

 

Im no fan of the WHO but when their lead emergency expert comes out saying sweden had the right plan i think we should listen instead of wasting resources locking down people that have a better chance of dying in a car wreck then they do the virus.

I don't think we're quite at that point where we should fling the doors wide open.  New cases are on the decline, but they need to be truly low (relatively speaking, at least) before you can open without seeing a rapid reinfection.  I'm comfortable with what some areas are doing, where they inch forward by relaxing a few restrictions (Ontario just opened many parks) and then watching closely to see how infections change before opening up further.

 

I'm not a big fan of the "let's just build up herd immunity" mentality, because it assumes that there won't be a huge resurgence of cases based on where we are now... and infection rates really haven't dropped that sharply in many areas.  Certainly not in major cities.

 

Besides, even if you get your wish, I don't think you'll like how society will look at that point.  If officials don't require masks in at least some public spaces, you'll probably see them anyway.  Many facilities will decide to stay closed for a while longer regardless, too.  Why?  Because, while rapid herd immunity is a nice dream, the reality is that most people don't want to roll the dice.  They don't want to find out if they're the one who dies, gets permanently crippled or inadvertently kills their parents.

[PhantomJaguarr]

Quote

A member of the U.S. military who serves in the White House has tested positive for the coronavirus, but President Donald Trump has since tested negative, the White House said in a statement. CNN reported that the person served as a valet for the president and that the individual was tested after starting exhibiting symptoms Wednesday morning.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/05/07/coronavirus-live-updates-unemployment-claims-california-donald-trump/5177378002/

[Bombastinator]

10 minutes ago, Commodus said:

I don't think we're quite at that point where we should fling the doors wide open.  New cases are on the decline, but they need to be truly low (relatively speaking, at least) before you can open without seeing a rapid reinfection.  I'm comfortable with what some areas are doing, where they inch forward by relaxing a few restrictions (Ontario just opened many parks) and then watching closely to see how infections change before opening up further.

 

I'm not a big fan of the "let's just build up herd immunity" mentality, because it assumes that there won't be a huge resurgence of cases based on where we are now... and infection rates really haven't dropped that sharply in many areas.  Certainly not in major cities.

 

Besides, even if you get your wish, I don't think you'll like how society will look at that point.  If officials don't require masks in at least some public spaces, you'll probably see them anyway.  Many facilities will decide to stay closed for a while longer regardless, too.  Why?  Because, while rapid herd immunity is a nice dream, the reality is that most people don't want to roll the dice.  They don't want to find out if they're the one who dies, gets permanently crippled or inadvertently kills their parents.

They were dropping.  They’re already rising again just with he actions of opener activists

[RonnieOP]

17 minutes ago, Commodus said:

I don't think we're quite at that point where we should fling the doors wide open.  New cases are on the decline, but they need to be truly low (relatively speaking, at least) before you can open without seeing a rapid reinfection.  I'm comfortable with what some areas are doing, where they inch forward by relaxing a few restrictions (Ontario just opened many parks) and then watching closely to see how infections change before opening up further.

 

I'm not a big fan of the "let's just build up herd immunity" mentality, because it assumes that there won't be a huge resurgence of cases based on where we are now... and infection rates really haven't dropped that sharply in many areas.  Certainly not in major cities.

 

Besides, even if you get your wish, I don't think you'll like how society will look at that point.  If officials don't require masks in at least some public spaces, you'll probably see them anyway.  Many facilities will decide to stay closed for a while longer regardless, too.  Why?  Because, while rapid herd immunity is a nice dream, the reality is that most people don't want to roll the dice.  They don't want to find out if they're the one who dies, gets permanently crippled or inadvertently kills their parents.

Im not saying end lockdown and go straight back to normal. There will still be some restrictions. 

 

If your not a fan of the herd immunity approach...then what are you a fan of? The only other option is lockdown until theres a cure. 

 

And true not everyone will want to go back to work. But thats no different then any other day. Anyone can decide not to work. They just wont have money to buy things or pay bills.

 

They cant expect to be paid by the government for years because they are scared of a low risk outcome. Like i said for a huge portion of the population dying in a car wreck is much more likely then dying from the virus. And if we talk about getting seriously injured in a car wreck the numbers go much much higher. 

 

People dont get to claim unemployment because they are scared of getting hurt in a car wreck.

 

We roll the dice literally every single day of our lives. Most highways speed limit is around 60 mph. They set that limit by rolling the dice of risk vs reward. If the speed limit on the high way was 40mph the risk would go way down.

[Commodus]

13 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Im not saying end lockdown and go straight back to normal. There will still be some restrictions. 

 

If your not a fan of the herd immunity approach...then what are you a fan of? The only other option is lockdown until theres a cure. 

 

And true not everyone will want to go back to work. But thats no different then any other day. Anyone can decide not to work. They just wont have money to buy things or pay bills.

 

They cant expect to be paid by the government for years because they are scared of a low risk outcome. Like i said for a huge portion of the population dying in a car wreck is much more likely then dying from the virus. And if we talk about getting seriously injured in a car wreck the numbers go much much higher. 

 

People dont get to claim unemployment because they are scared of getting hurt in a car wreck.

 

We roll the dice literally every single day of our lives. Most highways speed limit is around 60 mph. They set that limit by rolling the dice of risk vs reward. If the speed limit on the high way was 40mph the risk would go way down.

It's not an all-or-nothing approach, you know that, right?  The choices go beyond "lift lockdowns right now" or "stay locked down until there's a vaccine or cure."  What I'm asking for is an intelligent approach that lifts restrictions when it's reasonable to do so, based on a scientific consensus.  You're asking to lift restrictions as soon as possible, with little regard for science.

 

You also misunderstood what I said about businesses staying closed.  It's not individuals who simply decide the risk is too high; it's that there may either not be enough business to justify staying open, or that the businesses as a whole don't want to contribute to mass infection incidents.  Imagine you're running a movie theatre chain.  Do you reopen knowing that many of your usual customers are afraid of attending, and there's a very real chance a handful of your customers will die each day simply because they showed up?

 

Yes, we roll the dice daily, but smart gamblers also know when the odds of losing are too high to be worth tossing those dice.  They don't pretend that all risks are equal and just hope they get lucky.   And when COVID-19's fatality rate is much higher than for the flu, not to mention the hospitalization rate... well, don't be surprised when those smart gamblers refuse to play.

[Bombastinator]

56 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Im not saying end lockdown and go straight back to normal. There will still be some restrictions. 

 

If your not a fan of the herd immunity approach...then what are you a fan of? The only other option is lockdown until theres a cure. 

 

And true not everyone will want to go back to work. But thats no different then any other day. Anyone can decide not to work. They just wont have money to buy things or pay bills.

 

They cant expect to be paid by the government for years because they are scared of a low risk outcome. Like i said for a huge portion of the population dying in a car wreck is much more likely then dying from the virus. And if we talk about getting seriously injured in a car wreck the numbers go much much higher. 

 

People dont get to claim unemployment because they are scared of getting hurt in a car wreck.

 

We roll the dice literally every single day of our lives. Most highways speed limit is around 60 mph. They set that limit by rolling the dice of risk vs reward. If the speed limit on the high way was 40mph the risk would go way down.

It’s not a question of what is one a fan of.  I think at this point everyone is a fan of anything that works.  The problem, and it’s a really big one, is at this point THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HERD IMMUNITY WILL DO A THING.  It might.  The problem is that if we try it and it doesn’t work we’re totally fucked.  Completely. All of us.