Dear LTT, please stop hating Apple

[5x5]

Just now, LinusTechTipsFanFromDarlo said:

Yes but even LMG has been critical of them in the past for such flaws. It's fair either way... 

I mean, LMG aren't the best source for detailed reviews of durability but even they have been vocal about Razer's horrid longevity and failing devices

[PriitM]

On 4/18/2020 at 11:54 AM, zicru said:

TL;DR

10-15 min read

 

Dear LTT, 

 

As the title says, please stop the Apple hate. 

Its not hate. Based on the quality products. Its the whole idea of Apple trying to push-shove-scheme-sue-cry-bully the industry. You have to have competition and Apple is not playing by the rules. Sure, its useful to have someone to be different. But if these differences come with non-sense policies and practices that show the whole industry in a bad light, then its fair to bring them down to earth. I wish you could see the planet sized bigger point. Apple products have the niche, but should not be the industry standard! 

[3 Lions]

36 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

I mean, LMG aren't the best source for detailed reviews

It's not about being the best source, it's about following a very simple unbiased review structure. 

 

For example:

 

People claim (product) is very good, but is it actually any good? 

• No because...
• However I do like...

Or

 

People claim (product) is very bad, is it actually as bad as people make out? 

• No because...
• However there are flaws in this product...

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by LinusTechTipsFanFromDarlo

[James300]

The issue is the value proposition offered by Apple - Generally well built but uninteresting hardware with well optimised software sold at eye-watering prices

 

The recent video on the iPad Pro made me think:

 

Can the iPad Pro justify the Pro moniker, especially if it needs additional hardward to become truly usable?

If I needed to splash extra money for a useable daily driver device, why wouldn't I get a MacBook Air?

Wait, the base MacBook Air is only dual core and exorbitantly priced for the hardware. Why wouldn't I just buy a Zephyrus G14?

 

Apple has amazing mainstream coverage, and that's by design. If you want the tech YouTube community to put them up on a pedestal, then they have to innovate. Nice trackpads, good build quality and a big ad budget only go so far when you do things like putting an i3 in a £1000 laptop, or that an iPad is your next computer, selling it at computer prices rather than as a media consumption device.

[hxd.]

Here is a reason. You can beat the performance of a mac pro plus a setup for $17000. Less than the $56000 for a mac pro. (US) 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Threadripper 3990X 2.9 GHz 64-Core Processor	$3749.99 @ Amazon
CPU Cooler	Asus ROG Strix LC 360 80.95 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler	$409.45 @ Amazon
Motherboard	Asus ROG ZENITH II EXTREME ALPHA EATX sTRX4 Motherboard	$920.20 @ Amazon
Memory	G.Skill Trident Z Royal 256 GB (8 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory	$1449.99 @ Newegg
Storage	Samsung 970 Evo 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	$179.99 @ B&H
Storage	Samsung 970 Evo 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	$179.99 @ B&H
Storage	Seagate IronWolf Pro 16 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$521.47 @ Amazon
Storage	Seagate IronWolf Pro 16 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$521.47 @ Amazon
Video Card	NVIDIA TITAN RTX 24 GB Video Card (2-Way SLI)	$2489.98 @ Amazon
Video Card	NVIDIA TITAN RTX 24 GB Video Card (2-Way SLI)	$2489.98 @ Amazon
Case	Lian Li PC-O11 Dynamic ATX Full Tower Case	$194.99 @ Amazon
Power Supply	EVGA SuperNOVA P2 1600 W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply	$419.99 @ B&H
Wired Network Adapter	StarTech ST10000SPEX PCIe x4 10 Gbit/s Network Adapter	$528.28 @ Amazon
Case Fan	Corsair LL120 RGB LED 43.25 CFM 120 mm Fan	$39.99 @ Amazon
Case Fan	Corsair LL120RGB LED (Three Fans With Lighting Node PRO) 43.25 CFM 120 mm Fans	$129.99 @ Best Buy
Keyboard	Logitech K830 Wireless Slim Keyboard With Touchpad	$72.64 @ Amazon
Mouse	Logitech MX MASTER 2S (Black) Wireless Laser Mouse	$89.95 @ Amazon
Speakers	Logitech Z-2300 200 W 2.1 Channel Speakers	$1499.99 @ Amazon
Custom	Corsair Fan Controller Commander Pro (CL-9011110-WW)	$70.99 @ Best Buy
Custom	Acer Predator XB3 XB273K Sbmiprzx 27" Ultra HD 3840 x 2160 4K 4ms (GTG) 120Hz (144Hz OC) HDMI DisplayPort NVIDIA G-Sync DisplayHDR 400 Quantum Dot Built-in Speakers Backlit LED IPS Gaming Mon	$1204.98 @ Newegg
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$17164.30
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-04-20 08:45 EDT-0400

 

[Arika]

1 hour ago, 5x5 said:

I mean, LMG aren't the best source for detailed reviews of durability but even they have been vocal about Razer's horrid longevity and failing devices

big reviewers in general aren't the best source for anything long term. They get given a, likely cherry picked, unit to use for a month or two (some times only a few weeks) they write the script and then send the unit back or if they get to keep it, store it away and never use it again. See the laptop charging cart LTT made for their review units, how many times do you think they go into that and pull out an old laptop to use for an extended period of time and do a follow up review on? 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

15 hours ago, Warin said:

because I can't afford a new Mac. 

buy a used Mac. that's what I do. much cheaper. you just need to look out for defects. 

[zogthegreat]

On 4/18/2020 at 5:12 AM, 5x5 said:

Let me mention some awesome things about apple.

 

Failing butterfly keyboards,

Torn display flex cables,

Exploding TB3 controllers,

Dysfunctional fuzes

Sending 50v to the CPU when in a humid room,

Running at 100*C cause cooling is hard,

Asking 2000$ for an SSD upgrade,

Encrypting soldered SSDs and removing lifeboat connector so as to make data recovery impossible,

"Fixing" a desoldered chip by putting a piece of rubber on it.

Making iMAc Power Suuply that can kill you when cl among it (no shielding)

Making a bendable phone before it was cool (6s)

Making a bendable tablet before it was cool (iPad from a year or two ago)

Quoting ridiculous prices to fix working electronics that only need a bit of cleaning.

 

Stop rabbiting about Apple, use your brain and see that the trillion dollar company deserves to be called out.

You forgot to mention that Apple feels that they have the right to go on YOUR hardware anytime that they please and remove anything that you have installed on property that you have paid for and own. 

 

They also believe that they can install things on your property without your consent or permission. The infamous U2 album install is a rather good example. Apple forced the album onto iPhones without permission of the actual device owners. In the course of doing this, they burned through many users data quota's. They also made it difficult to remove the album from whatever device it had been forced onto, using up storage space on devices that are notorious for being short on space.

 

I have a 14 year old daughter who loves her iPhone. I won't let her use iCloud. The fact that Apple can go through her personnel photos and data without her permission  is something that a 14 year old does not understand the implications of. I built her a NextCloud server where she can have data storage for the thousands of pictures that she takes and "absolutely can't delete", (her words, not mine!). Of course, the NextCloud server also saves me a lot of money on iCloud storage!

 

Apples attitude of "we know whats best for the customer" is appalling. Run a Android device. If you really need to have the feel of an Apple product, tape $1000 USD to your Android phone and it will feel like an iPhone!  

 

BTW, if you are running Android, learn how to compile your own ROM's. You will learn a lot about the device that you are using and have full control of your device.

 

Just my 0.02¢

 

zog

[5x5]

1 minute ago, zogthegreat said:

You forgot to mention that Apple feels that they have the right to go on YOUR hardware anytime that they please and remove anything that you have installed on property that you have paid for and own. 

 

They also believe that they can install things on your property without your consent or permission. The infamous U2 album install is a rather good example. Apple forced the album onto iPhones without permission of the actual device owners. In the course of doing this, they burned through many users data quota's. They also made it difficult to remove the album from whatever device it had been forced onto, using up storage space on devices that are notorious for being short on space.

 

I have a 14 year old daughter who loves her iPhone. I won't let her use iCloud. The fact that Apple can go through her personnel photos and data without her permission  is something that a 14 year old does not understand the implications of. I built her a NextCloud server where she can have data storage for the thousands of pictures that she takes and "absolutely can't delete", (her words, not mine!). Of course, the NextCloud server also saves me a lot of money on iCloud storage!

 

Apples attitude of "we know whats best for the customer" is appalling. Run a Android device. If you really need to have the feel of an Apple product, tape $1000 USD to you Android phone and it will feel like an iPhone!  

 

BTW, if you are running Android, learn how to compile your own ROM's. You will learn a lot about the device that you are using and have full control of your device.

 

Just my 0.02¢

 

zog

I mean, the fuck-ups Apple have made are many - I just listed some of the more egregious ones that even a freshly graduated engineer could see coming

[3 Lions]

9 minutes ago, Arika S said:

big reviewers in general aren't the best source for anything long term. They get given a, likely cherry picked, unit to use for a month or two (some times only a few weeks) they write the script and then send the unit back or if they get to keep it, store it away and never use it again. See the laptop charging cart LTT made for their review units, how many times do you think they go into that and pull out an old laptop to use for an extended period of time and do a follow up review on? 

Still doesn't change the fact that it's an unbiased review. 

[Inversion]

3 hours ago, AndreiArgeanu said:

I couldn't bother to read the whole thing but judging by the replies and a part of the OP's post, it seems to be a case of fanboyism. Like seriously, if you don't like and don't agree with what you see just go to some other channel that doesn't point out flaws and short comings in Apple's devices. LTT as far as I know is very critical when reviewing expensive hardware like multi thousand dollar laptops or over thousand dollar phones because for such prices you should expect no less than the best and it applies to everyone, Dell, Apple, Samsung. On cheaper products I found LTT to be less critical overall because obviously in cheaper products for example a 400$ laptop you should expect shortcomings like worse build quality, or lower performance compared to devices 5 times the cost so while they do point those short comings out they are less critical about it.

I fully agree with you. Just look at the latest S20 Ultra review (I think it's that one anyway). Linus basically said that at the price point it's targeted at everything else is in play and it's not flawless. If it was it could have justified the price. This is the problem that Apple hits more than most because all their tech is largely speaking more expensive than the competition.

 

For me, since the iPod Touch 4th Gen, there's always been some sort of caveat that makes the price unjustifiable. With the iPad, it's actually the cost of the Pencil on top of it that makes it an impossible buy for me right now. When I compare it to the experience I get on a Huawei which with its pen is half the price, I can't justify it. It's not going to be twice as good an experience.

 

With the MacBooks, it's MacOS. There are programs I use far too regularly when I'm away from my desktop that need to run on Windows. Otherwise I would very much consider a MacBook Air when I next replace my laptop. As it happens I'll probably get a Dell XPS 13 or Surface Laptop/Book.

 

It's for the reason of price that I feel Apple seems to get a harder time. At the prices they ask for their products, there's normally something else that does the same for less, or better for the same price.

[Musty]

On 4/18/2020 at 4:31 PM, Twilight said:

when you are a reviewer you can't factor preference into things. that's not how it works. 

A review without preference is just a list of specs and features? I can read the manual for that.  

 

When people review anything... restaurants, hotels, hardware, they can only go on their experience of it, and their preferences are going to impact that.

[Inversion]

17 minutes ago, Arika S said:

big reviewers in general aren't the best source for anything long term. They get given a, likely cherry picked, unit to use for a month or two (some times only a few weeks) they write the script and then send the unit back or if they get to keep it, store it away and never use it again. See the laptop charging cart LTT made for their review units, how many times do you think they go into that and pull out an old laptop to use for an extended period of time and do a follow up review on? 

I can see what you mean. Given the number of products that come through their studio though you can't really expect that though. Personally I have much more confidence in the products that they use day to day. I wasn't convinced by the Surface Laptop when it first came out. But the fact that Alex seems to use them religiously has certainly improved my opinion of them. And the fact that Linus still uses his Note 9 (I know he's giving the OnePlus 8 series a try now) is the main reason I haven't been worrying too much about upgrading from my S8. If Linus hasn't seen something that's worth taking on a notch for yet, I'm happy to stay notchless (I really hate the notch!!)

[MageTank]

On 4/18/2020 at 4:54 AM, zicru said:

As the title says, please stop the Apple hate. 

 

In all seriousness, I don't "hate" Apple, much like the others in this thread have stated. I have strong disagreements with their design philosophy and business practices that makes it difficult for me to recommend their product to anyone. Any desktop/laptop with soldered RAM/Storage immediately gets a hard pass from me and I often advise others against buying those devices if possible. This isn't just an Apple thing either, I am the same way when HP, Dell, Lenovo and others do it too.

 

I've also never seen a company go against third party repair shops with as much vigor as Apple. Ignoring Rossman's rants entirely, there have been many instances of Apple going after third party repair shops unless they sign up for their extremely restrictive repair partnership programs and videos of their sketchy service practices in-store. A perfectly working device can labeled as "unrepairable" simply because they can't source the very components they manufacture.

 

This isn't a brand/company issue, but a practice issue entirely that needs to be addressed industry wide, and Apple should not be free from criticism when they are guilty of participating in it.

 

I also want to be clear that this has nothing to do with Apple's pricing of their hardware. I could care less what a company thinks their product is worth. If Apple thinks they can charge $1000 for some wheels, more power to them if someone is actually going to buy it. Same for their expensive monitor stand and first party peripherals. To me, that's all subjective and has nothing to do with the core issues that a lot of people have against Apple. The biggest being their factory working conditions, their refusal to let customers make the conscious decision to have their product repaired by a third party, and their overall proprietary design elements that often restrict the performance/longevity of their products. The latter people will often argue is "forced obsoletion", but I won't go into that as at the very least Apple has solid support for their older products, especially mobile devices.

 

TL:DR? Most of the "hate" apple gets is valid criticism and shouldn't be stopped until it's resolved. I respect those that refuse to hop on random bandwagons, but let's not pretend these issues are not prevalent with a lot of Apple's products and business practices. The same should be said of other companies with the gull to pull the same nonsense.

[genexis_x]

3 hours ago, 5x5 said:

Exposed display cables in front of the vents, problematic trackpads with absurdly high failure rate, overloaded power delivery that tends to fail, and shit QC on displays.

3 hours ago, 5x5 said:

but holy hell that horrid motherboard with super cheap components and absolutely no tolerance buil in

I would say these are common in new laptop manufacturers. Huawei did similar in their Matebooks

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

They get given a, likely cherry picked, unit

As a small reviewer, I can pick any units I wanted lol.

[Warin]

2 hours ago, Twilight said:

buy a used Mac. that's what I do. much cheaper. you just need to look out for defects. 

I have considered that.  Instead, I think I might use creative hardware solutions to run MacOS. 

 

But only once I have some new hardware to run Windows on.  Because it is still the best way to do PC gaming.

[lewdicrous]

 

[Kilrah]

3 hours ago, Twilight said:

buy a used Mac.

I just did that!

 

 

[BuckGup]

On 4/18/2020 at 4:12 AM, 5x5 said:

Let me mention some awesome things about apple.

 

Running at 100*C cause cooling is hard,

Making iMAc Power Suuply that can kill you when cl among it (no shielding)

Making a bendable phone before it was cool (6s)

 

You have valid points I just wanted to point out the cooling thing is not only Apple. Tons of companies sacrifice cooling for design and looks. Also it was the iPhone 6 that was bending the 6s had stronger aluminum and didn't. Also the power supply thing again isn't an Apple only issue.

[5x5]

4 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

You have valid points I just wanted to point out the cooling thing is not only Apple. Tons of companies sacrifice cooling for design and looks. Also it was the iPhone 6 that was bending the 6s had stronger aluminum and didn't. Also the power supply thing again isn't an Apple only issue.

The reason i brought up cooling was mainly the new air - passively cooled i5 quad-core? Come on apple, at least run a heat pipe to the bloody fan. Why is that fan even there.

Good note on the 6s and 6

PSU thing is a big issue, though. Most 5000$ devices come with shielding, I'd expect an exposed unit on a 300$ AIO, not a 5000$ iMac

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

59 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

I just did that!

holy crap that's cool! the oldest Mac I have is a 1998 iMac G3 Rev B.. 

 

I was offered a PowerBook G3 but I didn't take it because I had too much stuff at the time and it was missing a charger... I deeply regret that now. 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

54 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

The reason i brought up cooling was mainly the new air - passively cooled i5 quad-core? Come on apple, at least run a heat pipe to the bloody fan. 

if it doesn't throttle (which by the way means running below base clock!!!) it's fine. a better example for this point would be the 2018 15" MacBook Pro before apple fixed the cooling with a software update. 

 

55 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

PSU thing is a big issue, though. Most 5000$ devices come with shielding, I'd expect an exposed unit on a 300$ AIO, not a 5000$ iMac

iMac's have had this for ages. since the aluminium iMac came out iirc, so since 2007. I could be wrong there though. the fact that people still complain about this baffles me. it's not designed to be serviced by end users. it's possible to, but it's not designed for it. if that's what you want go buy a Mac Pro.

[RyzenDoctor]

On 4/18/2020 at 9:03 PM, Twilight said:

can't you just buy a PowerPC Mac for this? or a Mac that can run Snow Leopard so you have Rosetta? I see G5's listed here for like €50, and those are dual processor G5's, like really nice one's that are more than fast enough to run powerpc software really well. 

Yeah I could... but I live in an apartment with a 9 month old kid... I dont have space for all the legacy and retro stuff that I would love to own.

 

#sacrifices

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

3 minutes ago, RyzenDoctor said:

Yeah I could... but I live in an apartment with a 9 month old kid... I dont have space for all the legacy and retro stuff that I would love to own.

ah yeah, powermac's are bulky. depending on the programs you need you could buy a 12" PowerBook G4. those are super tiny. 

[5x5]

47 minutes ago, Twilight said:

if it doesn't throttle (which by the way means running below base clock!!!) it's fine. a better example for this point would be the 2018 15" MacBook Pro before apple fixed the cooling with a software update. 

 

iMac's have had this for ages. since the aluminium iMac came out iirc, so since 2007. I could be wrong there though. the fact that people still complain about this baffles me. it's not designed to be serviced by end users. it's possible to, but it's not designed for it. if that's what you want go buy a Mac Pro.

That doesn't fly. If the thermal sensor reads a thermal limit, it's throttling. And sorry, but when a 1100$ i5 device is running at a single GHz due to the temperature being 100*C, we have a serious problem. Especially when competing devices can easily hit 2.5GHz or more. Not to mention the fact that the "base clock" excuse does not fly - making your base clock 1.1GHz doesn't fix the massive thermal issues in the design. What next, base clock is 100MHz so technically the 9900KFC Apple edition can run passively? Bullshit and you know

 

On the second point - lethal power supply components should NEVER be exposed, I don't care how typical it is of the industry, killing your consumer base should not be on the daily agenda in ANY company