New Macbook pro announced with new dimensions

[Drak3]

16 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

’m talking about basic web browsing and Microsoft office work

I wouldn't want my '17 MBP 15" on my lap for either of those things.

So anything running the hotter running hexa and octacores offered now is going to be a no go for me.

[EarthWormJM2]

32 minutes ago, Radioactive Snowman said:

Razers QC leaves much to be desired while apple is pretty much the gold standard, thats worth the extra to me 

...except that if there is an issue with Razer you can easily get your HW replaced or fixed without losing all of your personal data or having to buy a whole new computer. Razer is still a fairly new company, I could have compared HP or Dell as well, but Razer has a very similar user buying experience online compared to HP and Dells insane amount of HW options lol. That is why I used them for my example. If I wanted to just argue $$ I could just have easily have said go build a desktop with better components for half the cost and hackintosh it if you really want MAC OS, but that's not what I'm talking about.

 

Also.. "gold standard" for quality control.. did you forget about the butterfly keyboards...

[Commodus]

2 hours ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

First off, I am not "crying" anything, I am being very objective and non-attacking on my posts here, So lets not start making claims about each other.

They have the exact same processor option if you get i7 or i9, same speed RAM, and we don't know details of the SSD other than 512GB, very similar screens each with their own benefit (touch OLED vs better color accuracy), hell you can't get anything with a RX5500M in them yet, but performance wise it's about on par with a GTX1660Ti. you can spec both devices very similar to match up performance wise. To say those HW configs aren't close is just ignorant.

Yes, you are.  Objectivity would mean using an actually close comparison of components, not a couple of similar parts while completely disregarding everything else that affects the price (display, audio, battery life and support, to name a few things).  To abuse car analogies: you believe it's valid to compare an SUV to a sports car solely because they're both using V8 engines.

 

Oh, and we do know details about the SSD -- it's an NVMe drive, and given Apple's recent specs, you're looking at a very fast NVMe drive at that (close to 3GB/s both ways).

 

2 hours ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

Of course it's flawed, there isn't anything out there that is EXACTLY like the MBP 16 yet, but we all know computer components here (or most of us on these forums do) and know the relative performance of said components, and if that's going to be your issue with my comparison, then I can't ever help you here. I was just doing a rough comparison of dollar for dollar performance and it comes down to objectively costing more for the actual performance and HW you are paying for and the only difference is the OS which in my opinion is not worth the price difference. If you like MAC OS, good on ya, but you can't ignore how much they overcharge for some products, especially if you need to replace a component, but that is another issue entirely. That's the only point I am making.

You don't need a perfect match, but the problem is that you're deliberately overlooking components that play a large, inescapable role in the final price of the system.  You can make an argument that the MacBook Pro should have a lower-specced configuration, but you can't actually complain that it's overpriced for what you get when you're clearly getting things that aren't available in Razer's laptop. There are things Razer has that Apple doesn't, to be clear, but you can't just declare it a wash.

[Commodus]

10 minutes ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

...except that if there is an issue with Razer you can easily get your HW replaced or fixed without losing all of your personal data or having to buy a whole new computer. Razer is still a fairly new company, I could have compared HP or Dell as well, but Razer has a very similar user buying experience online compared to HP and Dells insane amount of HW options lol. That is why I used them for my example. If I wanted to just argue $$ I could just have easily have said go build a desktop with better components for half the cost and hackintosh it if you really want MAC OS, but that's not what I'm talking about.

 

Also.. "gold standard" for quality control.. did you forget about the butterfly keyboards...

What the hell?

 

You don't always have to get your data wiped with Mac repairs.  You aren't forced to buy a new computer.  And notably, you can actually walk into a store and expect to get some form of on-site service, which just isn't an option with Razer.  Please, actually inform yourself about Apple instead of speaking from a position of complete ignorance.

 

 

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, Sorenson said:

You may really like numb pad but you certainly don’t need one for excel. I’m getting my MA in accountancy and have done all of my work on a 15” MacBook Pro without a number pad. If you learn to use the number keys above the keyboard it’s almost as fast as a number pad, and you shouldn’t be entering values in every column anyways. Most of excel is done through formulas and pointing and clicking on other cells (which apple’s amazing trackpad is great at.) Most accounting professionals I meet use a 13” laptop because they are constantly traveling. 
 

Numberpad’s are great, but the inclusion of one would put the speakers on the bottom of the laptop (yuck) and provided slightly better utility for such a small number of users. 

I very much disagree with you about the usefulness of the number pad. If you have to type in a large amount of numbers it is simply a must and using the numbers at the top of the keyboard is awkward to do one handed and also more stressful on the wrist in my experience. That being said an external number pad would work fine if you need one. My sister actually uses and external number pad even though her laptop has one because its has mechanical keys and it is easier to type with and less prone to hitting the wrong number. 

[DrMacintosh]

1 hour ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

get over it, thats how it is here

Yes, that is how it is here. If you don't like it, you can buy a different machine. 

[Quadriplegic]

Mmm, I'm actually impressed. 

Sure, it does cost an arm and leg, but premium products always cost premium, hence why they are premium. But actually Apple improved their product this time.

And the best part is that competitors like Dell or Huawei will probably want to one up Apple and try to release something better. The 2020 Matebook Pro X should be pretty good.
P.S. Doesn't 5300M confirm that Navi GPUs will follow Ryzen naming scheme? As in 53XX, 55XX, 57XX, 59XX? Haven't been following the news lately.

[EarthWormJM2]

3 hours ago, Commodus said:

You don't need a perfect match, but the problem is that you're deliberately overlooking components that play a large, inescapable role in the final price of the system

Then please tell me what would satisfy these requirements for you? I am doing a rough comparison here. I get you like MACs, i'm not disregarding that or looking down on that fact, you like what you like, but I'm also not being illogical here. Computer components whether they be in a MAC or PC are all the same, tech is tech. So if I can get product X that is the same performance with the same HW for $X amount of dollars less then product Y, and the only major difference is some software that you can run on any of it, it is my opinion that it is not worth it. For you it may be.

But objectively you can see that Apple is over charging for RAM from my previous post, almost everyone already agrees that Apple has always done that, which is one of the reasons it takes the overall cost up much higher then anyone else.

[justpoet]

I'm actually impressed with it, though I'd still like built in ethernet, even with Thunderbolt ports, even if it is just gig ethernet, as that is still the common thing to find while traveling to pro environments.  I'd also like magsafe back as a dedicated power port, but I'm sure I'm in the minority there.

 

I'm really looking forward to benchmarks on the graphics card side, both under MacOS and when booted into something like Windows and using the drivers on that side.

 

If I were looking to buy a laptop right now, this would probably be the choice for me.  Fortunately, mine is still running well, and has things like HDMI, USB, SD, and a dedicated power port in addition to Thunderbolt, though I wish USB/Thunderbolt were all a generation newer.

[EarthWormJM2]

3 hours ago, Commodus said:

What the hell?

 

You don't always have to get your data wiped with Mac repairs.  You aren't forced to buy a new computer.  And notably, you can actually walk into a store and expect to get some form of on-site service, which just isn't an option with Razer.  Please, actually inform yourself about Apple instead of speaking from a position of complete ignorance.

 

 

Yea... so all those stories and news articles about customers being told that it would be cheaper to buy a new computer, or that they need to replace the logic board to fix a display issue, or that anytime they do anything with the logic board they say your data cannot be recovered if it wasn't already backed up to the cloud even tho its an easily removable SSD, or Apple actively deleting helpful posts on how to repair their devices or recover data off of them, or how it took an INSANE amount of complaints and years for them to finally acknowledge the butterfly keyboard issues, or any number of similar stories, those are all made up and false? lol. Come'on now. 

 

Just cuz you can walk into a store and ask for help, doesn't mean you will get it, try calling Razer support vs Apple support and let me know whats better? I'm not trying to compare what is the better product or company, I could have easily used Dell/Acer/ASUS/HP whoever and still proved my point. I was only specifically showing Razer because an average consumer would understand Razers web store just like how Apples is simplified. Everyone else gives so many options and makes it difficult for the customer to figure out what they want. It was just a similar web experience with similar HW to compare pricing. If I wanted to be a "but meh PC is better cuz I can build a ballin rgb gamer extreme desktop for half the cost of a MBP 16!!" pleeb, I could, but that is not what my OG post was about. I was TRYING to make a fair comparison before everyone jumped down my throat lol

[justpoet]

4 hours ago, Sorenson said:

You may really like numb pad but you certainly don’t need one for excel. I’m getting my MA in accountancy and have done all of my work on a 15” MacBook Pro without a number pad. If you learn to use the number keys above the keyboard it’s almost as fast as a number pad, and you shouldn’t be entering values in every column anyways. Most of excel is done through formulas and pointing and clicking on other cells (which apple’s amazing trackpad is great at.) Most accounting professionals I meet use a 13” laptop because they are constantly traveling. 
 

Numberpad’s are great, but the inclusion of one would put the speakers on the bottom of the laptop (yuck) and provided slightly better utility for such a small number of users. 

I would suggest that the ability to 1 handed enter numbers fast from the numpad is important in a lot of cases, even if you don't need it.  That being said, they're still minority cases for most people who would be far better served by picking up a bluetooth numpad for only when they want it, rather than having it always attached to the laptop in place of things more commonly used, like speakers (which also add ventilation areas) and internal space (which has components moved into it to also allow for such a large battery capacity).

[EarthWormJM2]

2 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Yes, that is how it is here. If you don't like it, you can buy a different machine. 

...sounds like the logic of a stand up company that cares about their customer base.

[justpoet]

2 minutes ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

Just cuz you can walk into a store and ask for help, doesn't mean you will get it, try calling Razer support vs Apple support and let me know whats better?

Apple's wins by a landslide when calling in for support.  You WILL get support in a store as well, even if not all people get it free because of AppleCare coverage (which actually covers most everything, unlike the warranties from most big box stores).  Some stores certainly are better than others (my local one SUCKS at the genius bar, but the one another 30 minutes away is awesome), so I'm not discounting that people are told things that aren't great…but it isn't the norm either.

[SenKa]

7 hours ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

Because that is what the average consumer who has a MBP would do... I get there are ways to keep old MACs running, but so are there for Windows PCs, and I'd argue it's MUCH easier to get Win10 on an olddd PC then it is to get, for example, Mojave on and old MAC (like you just pointed out with Catalina). I made this point already in one of my replies earlier. I have a 2008 Dell XPS laptop that runs win 10 with out issue as well, just added an SSD to it. We can always make these arguments and comparisons if we are going to be changing HW or customizing the boot. But I'm just going with off the shelf, everyday consumer purchases of a MAC and what most ppl would see.

..and ~5 = about,  give or take a year or 2 (no need to nitpick as that wasn't my main point)

Yes, I believe the average Mac customer *would* use something like Catalina patcher because it is literally the first result on googling "Old mac catalina" and "Unsupported mac catalina", which I would believe are very reasonable searches when you're told "Yeah your mac is too old it won't run Catalina".

 

Also, that certainly sounded like a major point when it was your preemptive refute to people challenging your original post. 

[EarthWormJM2]

14 minutes ago, SenKa said:

Yes, I believe the average Mac customer *would* use something like Catalina patcher because it is literally the first result on googling "Old mac catalina" and "Unsupported mac catalina", which I would believe are very reasonable searches when you're told "Yeah your mac is too old it won't run Catalina".

 

Also, that certainly sounded like a major point when it was your preemptive refute to people challenging your original post. 

... the person you are describing would need some semblance of tech knowledge to even think to look that up. Let alone know what the OS version names are that would work with their old MAC.That is definitely not the majority. Maybe majority of people on here, but most people would just take it to the apple store or buy a new one if it stopped working. Hell I know people who have bought new computers because they either filled up their hard drive or forgot their password. Most of the general public isn't tech savvy and has no desire to do those types of things. They just want something that works.

 

My main point was shedding some light on what everyone knows, Apple overprices their products. (even tho ppl still pay it). That was just adding to the de-value of it, like having to buy additional dongles and whatnot. But I was just comparing the pricing of this new MBP to other similar spec computers out there then giving my opinion that its not worth the premium.

[hishnash]

10 hours ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

Yes. All that makes perfect sense for the MB or MBA, but this is supposed to be a "pro" device aimed at professionals. So the target audience isn't supposed to be your average user, that's why they have the other models.

I would say pros still want a laptop with good cooling and good battery life. 
 

what they could do is make multiple skews so if you don’t need it it does not damage your device. 

[Belgarathian]

On 11/14/2019 at 5:09 PM, captain_to_fire said:

Why would Apple need T2 for the SSD controller when in fact, it’s a couple of NVME drives in RAID0? 

What's your source? If so, that would be the first time Apple has used RAID in their laptops to my knowledge. 

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15101/apple-rolls-out-16inch-macbook-pro-a-bit-more-refined 

 

 

[Drak3]

39 minutes ago, Belgarathian said:

What's your source? If so, that would be the first time Apple has used RAID in their laptops to my knowledge. 

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15101/apple-rolls-out-16inch-macbook-pro-a-bit-more-refined 

 

 

Apple solders the NAND directly to the logic board.

 

 

So, effectively every single Apple laptop with more than 1 NAND chip is RAID 0. And every other SSD on the planet with multiple NAND chips being managed by a single controller.

[RedRound2]

22 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I wouldn't consider a laptop to be a "pro" product unless it has a USB type A port,and either an HDMI or Displayport, Ethernet is also nice to have if you want to transfer files more quickly.  It's silly to me that they couldn't include any extra ports with the 16" Macbook so you still have to carry around a bunch of dongles and hubs, and you shouldn't have to give a port to charge the laptop.

TB3/USB4 is the future. No doubt about it. Apple just jumped to it, to force change, like it always has. Retaining old ports will slow the change and new accessories will still come out with USB-A to maintain the widest compatibility. 

 

And Pros, usually would have the money to invest in newer accessories to take advantage of the much superior port. Hence why Apple is sticking to their guns because this isn't a problem at all for people who have gone full usb c. And remember each of those 4 ports is backward compatible with pretty much any old port (simultaneously too), so if you think about it Macs actually have the most number of ports available and that is quite pro in my book.

 

For general consumers, you dont have to carry a 'bunch' of dongles'. Just one small typc c or TB3 dongle with all the connections you could possible require.

 

If im dropping $2000+ on a mac and upgrade my workflow, I wouldn't mind dropping a bit more on all USB C accessories. And in corner cases you need legacy port, ill keep one of those docks in handy in case i do need one (which would be rare)

 

[Blademaster91]

54 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

TB3/USB4 is the future. No doubt about it. Apple just jumped to it, to force change, like it always has. Retaining old ports will slow the change and new accessories will still come out with USB-A to maintain the widest compatibility. 

 

And Pros, usually would have the money to invest in newer accessories to take advantage of the much superior port. Hence why Apple is sticking to their guns because this isn't a problem at all for people who have gone full usb c. And remember each of those 4 ports is backward compatible with pretty much any old port (simultaneously too), so if you think about it Macs actually have the most number of ports available and that is quite pro in my book.

 

For general consumers, you dont have to carry a 'bunch' of dongles'. Just one small typc c or TB3 dongle with all the connections you could possible require.

 

If im dropping $2000+ on a mac and upgrade my workflow, I wouldn't mind dropping a bit more on all USB C accessories. And in corner cases you need legacy port, ill keep one of those docks in handy in case i do need one (which would be rare)

 

Except as already mentioned many other "pro" laptops have a decent selection of ports, as well as having a TB port, if it were the case of "forcing change" most other laptops would be dropping standard ports people use everyday for TB3 or TB4. People still clearly need I/O such as USB type A, DisplayPort, or an SD card slot because manufacturers still include them into laptops, and have a thin form factor, there isn't any excuse to not include such basic ports into a "pro" laptop instead of needing silly dongles to plug in peripherals.

It's more like the headphone jack, putting form over function, and so the company can sell you an adapter for a port that was otherwise included in the cost of the hardware. I don't see how it would be a workflow upgrade when someone would need to carry dongles around for things like a numberpad, mouse, or connecting another display.

[Commodus]

19 hours ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

Then please tell me what would satisfy these requirements for you? I am doing a rough comparison here. I get you like MACs, i'm not disregarding that or looking down on that fact, you like what you like, but I'm also not being illogical here. Computer components whether they be in a MAC or PC are all the same, tech is tech. So if I can get product X that is the same performance with the same HW for $X amount of dollars less then product Y, and the only major difference is some software that you can run on any of it, it is my opinion that it is not worth it. For you it may be.

But objectively you can see that Apple is over charging for RAM from my previous post, almost everyone already agrees that Apple has always done that, which is one of the reasons it takes the overall cost up much higher then anyone else.

It's very easy.  There are two main things:

 

1.  A vaguely comparable display.  Apple has a 1920p screen with an emphasis on colour accuracy; Razer has a 1080p screen that trades accuracy (reviews have explicitly ruled it out for pro work) for refresh rate.  A given laptop doesn't need Apple's exact resolution or specs, but a 1440p or better screen with generally accurate output would at least put it in the ballpark.

 

2.  The same storage option.  The configuration must include at least a 512GB SSD.

 

It would also be ideal if you could get somewhat close in other specs, such as Apple's 11 hours of battery life (and preferably using a semi-realistic test like Apple does).  Razer's real-world battery life is pretty lousy even for light productivity, based on the reviews I've read.

 

I do agree that Apple overcharges for RAM upgrades, and to a degree storage as well; I can understand why (this is how it makes money, after all), but it's not great.  But it's ridiculous to claim that Apple is always overpriced when your benchmark is a system with markedly inferior display, storage and battery tech.  The Razer costs less because it's worth less.

[Commodus]

19 hours ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

Yea... so all those stories and news articles about customers being told that it would be cheaper to buy a new computer, or that they need to replace the logic board to fix a display issue, or that anytime they do anything with the logic board they say your data cannot be recovered if it wasn't already backed up to the cloud even tho its an easily removable SSD, or Apple actively deleting helpful posts on how to repair their devices or recover data off of them, or how it took an INSANE amount of complaints and years for them to finally acknowledge the butterfly keyboard issues, or any number of similar stories, those are all made up and false? lol. Come'on now. 

 

Just cuz you can walk into a store and ask for help, doesn't mean you will get it, try calling Razer support vs Apple support and let me know whats better? I'm not trying to compare what is the better product or company, I could have easily used Dell/Acer/ASUS/HP whoever and still proved my point. I was only specifically showing Razer because an average consumer would understand Razers web store just like how Apples is simplified. Everyone else gives so many options and makes it difficult for the customer to figure out what they want. It was just a similar web experience with similar HW to compare pricing. If I wanted to be a "but meh PC is better cuz I can build a ballin rgb gamer extreme desktop for half the cost of a MBP 16!!" pleeb, I could, but that is not what my OG post was about. I was TRYING to make a fair comparison before everyone jumped down my throat lol

I'm not saying those never happen, but it's false to act as if these are the norms.  It depends on the nature of the repair, and the costs depend on the age of the system.  Yeah, it's going to be a tough sell to replace the mainboard on any proprietary system that's out of warranty.  Also, if you hadn't noticed, backing up your computer (you can use a physical Time Machine backup, by the way) is a pretty good idea if you're going to send it in for service no matter who your manufacturer is.  Dell, HP and Lenovo aren't going to guarantee your data any more than Apple will.

 

I'm pretty sure Apple was aware of the butterfly keyboard issue for a while, but designing that out of the systems was going to take a while.  It could have theoretically come sooner, but it wasn't going to be a drop-in replacement.

 

If you go by Laptop Mag's ratings, phone support for Apple and Razer is comparable; Apple is slightly ahead, but both are good.  However, there's no question that having the option to speak to someone in person is much better if given the choice, because they can assess it based on what they see, and potentially offer you a more immediate fix.  If you can't afford to be without your laptop for more than a day or two, you'd be much better off with the Mac.

 

I also have a beef with Razer's ostensibly simple configuration page, because it feels like you're playing a game of configuration roulette -- they make it look like you can get the exact system you want, but it's entirely possible to get an older CPU if you're not careful.  I'd prefer if Razer offered multiple configurators dictated by base systems so that there's no ambiguity about the model you're going to get.

[RedRound2]

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Except as already mentioned many other "pro" laptops have a decent selection of ports, as well as having a TB port, if it were the case of "forcing change" most other laptops would be dropping standard ports people use everyday for TB3 or TB4. People still clearly need I/O such as USB type A, DisplayPort, or an SD card slot because manufacturers still include them into laptops, and have a thin form factor, there isn't any excuse to not include such basic ports into a "pro" laptop instead of needing silly dongles to plug in peripherals.

That's because other manufacturers are scared of pissing of customers. Apple is the only company that can force change in the industry and they've been known to do this quite a lot. Apple is not using thinness or space savings as a justification for removing old ports. It's just how they want it and it's what they see in the future. As simple as that. Apple, as a consumer electronics company, is the only entity that can force something like this. Not one individual, nor any other company. That's what the floppy, CD, headphone jack, legacy ports has always been about

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

It's more like the headphone jack, putting form over function, and so the company can sell you an adapter for a port that was otherwise included in the cost of the hardware.

But Apple doesn't sell you docks. So they're basically making no profit. In fact i think it was more expensive for them because they have to actually add in extra hardware for full TB3 in all four ports. They leave docks and dongles that to third parties. If anything, they're risking their customers for the greater good of unification of all ports. Basically they have the balls to do something like this, risking losing sales, just to force change.

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I don't see how it would be a workflow upgrade when someone would need to carry dongles around for things like a numberpad, mouse, or connecting another display.

Numpad is a different conversation. It makes the keyboard off center and people who heavily use numpads are better off with much cheaper laptops that includes one. Not the targeted customers, and frankly the much superior speakers are worth the loss of numpad for the intended customers. You can get type C mouses and display is also just a single adaptor (if you have a constant set of external monitor I dont see why you couldn't swap out the cable and if you're talking about projectors, most of them are VGA so you need a dongle anyway)

[mr moose]

Apple, the only company to remove common features and push (force in some cases) you to buy new instead of repair,  and have fanboys defend it like they are gracing you with charity.

 

 

[D13H4RD]

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

Apple, the only company to remove common features and push (force in some cases) you to buy new instead of repair,  and have fanboys defend it like they are gracing you with charity.

 

 

Don’t forget Tesla