DOJ orders apple and google to hand over identifying data of every user of gun scope app

[spartaman64]

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Apple and Google have been ordered by the U.S. government to hand over names, phone numbers and other identifying data of at least 10,000 users of a single gun scope app, Forbes has discovered. It’s an unprecedented move: Never before has a case been disclosed in which American investigators demanded personal data of users of a single app from Apple and Google. And never has an order been made public where the feds have asked the Silicon Valley giants for info on so many thousands of people in one go.

Quote

According to a court order filed by the Department of Justice (DOJ) on September 5, investigators want information on users of Obsidian 4, a tool used to control rifle scopes made by night-vision specialist American Technologies Network Corp. The app allows gun owners to get a live stream, take video and calibrate their gun scope from an Android or iPhone device. According to the Google Play page for Obsidian 4, it has more than 10,000 downloads. Apple doesn’t provide download numbers, so it’s unclear how many iPhone owners have been swept up in this latest government data grab.

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If Apple and Google decide to hand over the information, it could include data on thousands of people who have nothing to do with the crimes being investigated, privacy activists warned. Edin Omanovic, lead on Privacy International's State Surveillance program, said the order would set a dangerous precedent and scoop up “huge amounts of innocent people’s personal data.” 

“Such orders need to be based on suspicion and be particularized—this is neither,” Omanovic added.

Quote

The Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) department is seeking information as part of a broad investigation into possible breaches of weapons export regulations. It’s looking into illegal exports of ATN’s scope, though the company itself isn’t under investigation, according to the order. As part of that, investigators are looking for a quick way to find out where the app is in use, as that will likely indicate where the hardware has been shipped. ICE has repeatedly intercepted illegal shipments of the scope, which is controlled under the International Traffic in Arms Regulation (ITAR), according to the government court filing. They included shipments to Canada, the Netherlands and Hong Kong where the necessary licenses hadn’t been obtained.

“This pattern of unlawful, attempted exports of this rifle scope in combination with the manner in which the ATN Obsidian 4 application is paired with this scope manufactured by Company A supports the conclusion that the information requested herein will assist the government in identifying networks engaged in the unlawful export of this rifle scope through identifying end users located in countries to which export of this item is restricted,” the government order reads.

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Apple and Google have been told to hand over not just the names of anyone who downloaded the scope app from August 1, 2017 to the current date, but their telephone numbers and IP addresses too, which could be used to determine the location of the user. The government also wants to know when users were operating the app.

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Though the order is unprecedented in America, non-U.S. governments have tried a similar tactic before on a grander scale. As Forbes reported, an unnamed government had asked Apple for data on 58 million users of a single app as they tried to trace a terrorist cell. Apple declined to provide the data.

source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/09/06/exclusive-feds-order-apple-and-google-to-hand-over-names-of-10000-users-of-a-gun-scope-app/#2d3df2c61351

 

If they don't want people outside of the US to use the app can't they just request for google and apple to region lock it? Also google and apple can probably differentiate between the user data themselves so they could have ask them just for the data of people outside the US. Just like how the police can't get a warranty to search an entire city a crime was committed in, the government shouldn't be able to get data of every user of an app when they just want to find specific ones.

[Zando_]

Seems like a standard ask I guess, doubt Apple will comply given they haven't in the past (I don't remember if Google does or not though). What's with the scope though, is it some sort of special super-scope? I know suppressors and SBRs and any full auto weapons are heavily restricted, but illegally importing a scope just sounds derpy, I don't see why they'd restrict them. 

[spartaman64]

3 minutes ago, Zando Bob said:

Seems like a standard ask I guess, doubt Apple will comply given they haven't in the past (I don't remember if Google does or not though). What's with the scope though, is it some sort of special super-scope? I know suppressors and SBRs and any full auto weapons are heavily restricted, but illegally importing a scope just sounds derpy, I don't see why they'd restrict them. 

https://www.atncorp.com/video/x-sight_girl_1-1280.webm looking at this video from their website it does seem like the scope has some special features though idk if it would work that well irl and i feel like it takes the fun/skill out of rifle target shooting

[justpoet]

As reported, this would seem to be a thinly veiled attempt at starting to create a govt list of gun owners.  That's not cool, or legal, and is asking for abuse later on down the road, especially regarding the 2nd ammendment.

 

That being said, if this is indeed all for the ICE/ITAR issue, it would be reasonable and not a privacy/rights issue for Apple/Google to provide locations of high app use density outside of the US, allowing the govt to further pinpoint investigations of smuggling to those areas.

[Zando_]

6 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

https://www.atncorp.com/video/x-sight_girl_1-1280.webm looking at this video from their website it does seem like the scope has some special features though idk if it would work that well irl and i feel like it takes the fun/skill out of rifle target shooting

"According to an application for a court order filed by the Department of Justice (DOJ) on September 5, investigators want information on users of Obsidian 4, a tool used to control rifle scopes made by night-vision specialist American Technologies Network Corp. The app allows gun owners to get a live stream, take video and calibrate their gun scope from an Android or iPhone device. According to the Google Play page for Obsidian 4, it has more than 10,000 downloads. Apple doesn’t provide download numbers, so it’s unclear how many iPhone owners could be swept up in this latest government data grab."

It is some kind of fancy scope: https://www.atncorp.com/howsmarthdworks

 

I still don't know why they'd be restricted or require licenses, since at most it's NODs and a camera slapped into a scope, and you can buy all those things just fine. If they're illegal in other countries then isn't that their customs issue and not the US's? 

"It’s unclear just whom ICE is investigating. No public charges have been filed related to the company or resellers of its weapons tools. Reports online have claimed ATN scopes were being used by the Taliban."

 

Pretty sure the Taliban uses a lot of weapons they got through not-legal means, hell I wouldn't be surprised if the US government sold them weapons or knew people who did and didn't stop it, that whole business is fishy to say the least. I doubt that's reason to just randomly grab extremely specific and individualized information on US citizens without any clear goal. 
 

"The request is undeniably broad and would likely include all users of the app within America, not just users abroad who might indicate illegal shipments of the gun appendage. Tor Ekeland, a privacy-focused lawyer, said it amounted to a “fishing expedition.” (The DOJ hadn’t responded to a request for comment at the time of publication.)" 

Does seem to be pretty sus given they aren't actually investigating anything? Just kinda wanting general info on everyone who might own a scope, not those who have them illegally. From what I understand they're only illegal outside the US anyways, why would they need the information of US owners given they're legal here? 

[mr moose]

42 minutes ago, justpoet said:

As reported, this would seem to be a thinly veiled attempt at starting to create a govt list of gun owners.  That's not cool, or legal, and is asking for abuse later on down the road, especially regarding the 2nd ammendment.

Don't they already know who has a gun?  I'd be very surprised if they didn't.

 

[lewdicrous]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Don't they already know who has a gun?  I'd be very surprised if they didn't.

I guess it depends on how/where you buy the guns; I think it's different when going to a certified store as opposed to a gun show.

[79wjd]

55 minutes ago, Zando Bob said:

Seems like a standard ask I guess, doubt Apple will comply given they haven't in the past (I don't remember if Google does or not though). What's with the scope though, is it some sort of special super-scope? I know suppressors and SBRs and any full auto weapons are heavily restricted, but illegally importing a scope just sounds derpy, I don't see why they'd restrict them. 

Apple hasn't cooperated in the past with things like backdoors. They WILL (historically anyway) comply with warrants for iCloud data. This would seem more like the warrants for iCloud data than a request for a backdoor into iOS.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, lewdicrous said:

I guess it depends on how/where you buy the guns; I think it's different when going to a certified store as opposed to a gun show.

I believe I read @Drak3 said something about not being able to get a gun without background checks and applications.  True/false?

[Zando_]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I believe I read @Drak3 said something about not being able to get a gun without background checks and applications.  True/false?

To my knowledge that's true, but idiots. 

EDIT: Varies by state: https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/private-gun-sale-laws-by-state.html
 

Here in Tennessee it's not very idiot-proof:

California actually has a logical law for background checks (lol), where even on a private sale you have to go through a proper gun store. That actually makes sense, same as how online gun sales send the gun to a local gun shop and then they background check you and everything before they let you have it. 

[justpoet]

Depends a lot on state, and on the type of gun.  Some states only do the fed background check when purchasing in a retail shop.  Lots of states have a ton of folks with inherited guns that aren't on the record at all as even being weapons that exist.  Some states require registration of private sale and others don't.  The closest thing they have in many states is a permit to carry, which is usually limited to general public requirement, so things like rifles used on your property or gun ranges generally don't require it, etc.  Lots of "sorta, but not really" in there.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, justpoet said:

Depends a lot on state, and on the type of gun.  Some states only do the fed background check when purchasing in a retail shop.  Lots of states have a ton of folks with inherited guns that aren't on the record at all as even being weapons that exist.  Some states require registration of private sale and others don't.  The closest thing they have in many states is a permit to carry, which is usually limited to general public requirement, so things like rifles used on your property or gun ranges generally don't require it, etc.  Lots of "sorta, but not really" in there.

yikes, no wonder half the country hates the idea of gun reform.

[lewdicrous]

10 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I believe I read @Drak3 said something about not being able to get a gun without background checks and applications.  True/false?

True to some extent, you can still get a gun in some gun shows without needing a background check via a loophole.

https://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html

 

Edit: the article I sent hasn't been updated in a while, so some information may not be 100% accurate to today's policies/laws.

[justpoet]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

yikes, no wonder half the country hates the idea of gun reform.

Yep.  To put it in perspective…the figures you see in many of the memes are usually considered to be rather low for gun ownership and rounds of unfired ammo in the hands of private citizens.  The US is a VERY heavily personally armed country, despite what places like California and Chicago would like you to believe.  Also note that they're the strictest gun control places in the US and are some of the only places where gun violence has risen, rather than dropped, and you get a HUGE push back on any kind of gun reform in the majority of places.

[Guest]

While I hate guns and think they should all be melted down, I also don't like the thought of companies being forced to share personal data to anyone but the individual. However, it does seem inevitable the future will see data shared far more than it is now. I am not sure anything can or will be done to stop it.

[imreloadin]

7 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

While I hate guns and think they should all be melted down

Can't melt down knowledge, same thing goes for nuclear proliferation.

[ivan134]

MURICA, FUCK YEAH!!!!

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

54 minutes ago, imreloadin said:

Can't melt down knowledge

No, but you can put lengthy jail sentences on illegal possession.    Give it a decade or two and the amount of gun-related crimes will drop dramatically.

[Brooksie359]

2 hours ago, justpoet said:

As reported, this would seem to be a thinly veiled attempt at starting to create a govt list of gun owners.  That's not cool, or legal, and is asking for abuse later on down the road, especially regarding the 2nd ammendment.

 

That being said, if this is indeed all for the ICE/ITAR issue, it would be reasonable and not a privacy/rights issue for Apple/Google to provide locations of high app use density outside of the US, allowing the govt to further pinpoint investigations of smuggling to those areas.

I am a bit confused by your comment. Dont you have to have any gun you own registered? I am pretty sure they already have a list of legal gun owners. 

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, imreloadin said:

Can't melt down knowledge, same thing goes for nuclear proliferation.

Idk. With certain drugs you can certainly melt knowledge. It unfortunately happened to someone I know and they are now mentally disabled. 

[sazrocks]

11 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

 Dont you have to have any gun you own registered?

Nope. Only very specific restricted types.

[mr moose]

10 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I am a bit confused by your comment. Dont you have to have any gun you own registered? I am pretty sure they already have a list of legal gun owners. 

Let's face it, we are fooling ourselves if we think the government doesn't already have all the information they seek publicly.

[justpoet]

17 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I am a bit confused by your comment. Dont you have to have any gun you own registered? I am pretty sure they already have a list of legal gun owners. 

No, you don't have to have every gun registered.  Most guns aren't registered beyond initial retail sale in some states that require that along with the background check, or when shipped across state borders.  All currently manufactured guns have to have a serial number so they can be traced back to the original retail seller if found at/used for a crime, but they do not require registration.  Registration is required for controlled firearms though, such as machine guns.

[imreloadin]

19 minutes ago, Captain Chaos said:

No, but you can put lengthy jail sentences on illegal possession.    Give it a decade or two and the amount of gun-related crimes will drop dramatically.

That's why nobody does drugs anymore right....RIGHT?

[colonel_mortis]

Based on the article, it doesn't look like it has anything to do with gun use within the US. Instead, they are looking at where the scope is being used outside the US.

 

Weapons, weapon parts, and anything that could conceivably be used as a weapon (including encryption software for a period) is subject to strict export laws from the US (I don't know about other countries, but suspect that it is similar in most places), which I believe require the company to do a lot of paperwork to get approval for each country that they want to export to. If this scope is being widely used in countries that they have not received the necessary permissions, there must be a company that is exporting them in violation of US law.

 

This is definitely not a necessary or proportional way to go about doing that. If they had requested just the aggregated country data (how many downloads per country), that would allow them to achieve that goal without invading the users' privacy.