Wallmart kills OVERPOWERED Prebuilt PCs - [UPDATE - They're back!... Now with a $400 discount!]

[Trik'Stari]

Walmart: "Introducing newer, cheaper, garbage".

[seon123]

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Does it do that?  Does it do it to the detriment of the PC?  

That is what happens with group regulated PSUs in modern PCs. 12V voltage will go down, 5V voltage will go up. 

And in the deep sleep states (which can technically be disabled), same thing will happen. 

The voltages going out of spec will reduce the lifespan of the components. 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, seon123 said:

That is what happens with group regulated PSUs in modern PCs. 12V voltage will go down, 5V voltage will go up. 

And in the deep sleep states (which can technically be disabled), same thing will happen. 

The voltages going out of spec will reduce the lifespan of the components. 

Yes I get that, but as I asked, does this one do that to the detriment of the PC. In fact how many of them do it to the detriment of the PC they are in? Remember we are talking about a non over clocked bog stock off the shelf PC.

 

 

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, mariushm said:

Protection... you're picking things that in reality don't matter that much and you amplify them and think they're so serious...

Yes they are because you have breakers in your House so that it doesn't burn down.

You have Seatbelts and Airbags in your car.

 

You don't need both with "normal Operation". But that's not what Safety Features are for. They are for abnormal Operation. Like triving into a tree.

With Seetbelt and Airbags your chance of survival are higher than without.

 

Same with PSU, thouigh the Protection should first protect the PSU from damage and then minimize the damage of other components.

 

With OCP you can detect "slight shorts", without you can not. That means that the cables will burn if something went wrong on the other side...

 

1 hour ago, mariushm said:

like "every group regulated power supply is crap" or in other threads you said a psu is bad because it can't handle deep sleep states ... as if the person can't just disable that in bios and have compuer consume a few watts more.

Its not about that.

Its that you can force a PSU out of spec with normal load. So in english: With the right load, you'll kill your hardware.

 

Its not (just) about hte Deep Sleep.

 

Another thing is that 5V load effects 12V and vice versa. So a rippling graphics card like an MSI 1080ti and co, 

So anything that happens on +12V in that case, the issues the GPU causes, has effects on +5V as well, so you have high ripple here as well because of the GPU.

1 hour ago, mariushm said:

Over current protection (if that's what's missing) is overrated ... at what point are you going to set the threshold when video cards like vega56 can draw 400-450w in a few millisecond bursts?

Having the 12V Rail hanging at 8,7V when overloading under 4V on the 5V Rail and 1,8V on the 3,3V Rail is certainly not bad for the components, right?

 

A PSU should stay inside spec and switch off as soon as the voltages goes out of spec, especially when overloading. You can do that accidentally, for example put a second graphics card inside for "testing purposes". or something could be dying with a slight short.

 

Without OCP you have a situation like the "why Single Rail is NOT better than Multi Rail".

That is the worst case for a unit that is protected without UVP on +12V and OCP.

But there is another thing I can offer you, its this:

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/netzteile/29916-enermax-triathlor-eco-650w-und-lepa-maxbron-700w-im-test.html?start=3

 

Yes, it is german.

 

And the Lepa 700W did _NOT_ switch off, even when the 12V Rail dropped to six volts!

And Ripple/Noise is probably at the volt level at that point anyway...

 

1 hour ago, mariushm said:

The Seasonic model is rated for 576w or 48A ... so technically the seasonic model is better. Not sure about the exact model, but in general Seasonic uses much higher quality capacitors (longer life, more reliable), often from 1st tier Japanese brands, and the fan used on that model is also from a known brand and of known quality.

the GW psu uses crap capacitors and cheap sleeve bearing fan that will most likely die in a few years.

No, you're wrong on that.

You can argue that the Great Wall is lower wattage, granted.

 

But to say that the Seasonic is technically better because Wapanese Caps is false. As the Caps are rarely the issue these days. And you should get everything else in order, before doing some Marketing Stunts. Like using independant regulation, using a decent protection chip and having all protections you'd want and need. THAT is more important than some theoretical Cap Quality...

 

Especially when things like MOSFETs either for Primary Switching, PFC or the Secondary Rectification might be the real issues or +5V Standby Chips exploding...

Thus we do not the lifetime calculations, we do not know how long the other components are calculated for to live and how important the Caps are.

 

What you see in low end/System Integrator Designs is that they use one or two Nippon Chemicon od similar Capacitor in the +5VSB Rail. And other stuff for the Rest.

 

Buttom Line:

The Capacitors might be fine when the PSU dies, but what does it matter if the PSU is dead anyway??

The PSU is dead. Is it important if the Caps of the unit are still fine or dead? If both PSU have a similar lifetime, what does it matter?!

 

 

1 hour ago, mariushm said:

You just posted something as I wrote this message, where you said that power supply died on you... I can see from the pictures shitty capacitors leaking, you have unstable 5v stand-by circuit there, and also the 5v and 12v filter capacitors on the output are leaking. All your fancy protections wouldn't have protected the PC from this. I'd rather have higher quality components inside than those protections. 

It didn't die on me, it was still working when I pulled it out of the PC. And for obvious reasons I won't test it.

And the PSU was like 12 Years old at that age, so I don't blame it for failing.

And it isn't my point.

 

My point was that the PC worked with THAT PSU a Week Earlier without any issues. That a 12 Year old PSU might die, well, yeah, happens...

And that is also the difference between that design and modern designs:
Older Designs were more robust, used normal Power Transistors and Diodes on the Secondary Side for Rectification.

Today we use MOSFET for everything.

 

The good thing is that the efficiency is far higher.

The downside is that they die more easily than the older parts and don't like beeing used in a wrong way...

 

You see that with exploding +5VSB Chips for example. But also Jon had a Posting in his Forum ranting about MOSFETs in one of the PSUs...

[Yoinkerman]

Eh I hope they don't discontinue the line.  Revision 1.1 with a slightly better mobo and a couple of black spacers will basically solve the glaring issues.

 

More choice is always better

[dtaflorida]

15 hours ago, Canada EH said:

You wanting to buy a pc from Walmart?

No, I just wanted to know if they used a better chipset on the higher end models as well as address some of the issues of the lower end models. Along with the testing Steve did showing the power supply while not looking polished, it is sufficient and safe. The only real problem is the lack case intake air filtering, more of a nitpick. 

[TechyBen]

Just now, dtaflorida said:

No, I just wanted to know if they used a better chipset on the higher end models as well as address some of the issues of the lower end models. Along with the testing Steve did showing the power supply while not looking polished, it is sufficient and safe. The only real problem is the lack case intake air filtering, more of a nitpick. 

Nah, actual thermals on that case are dire. I'd let lack of air filtering go, but no excuse for choosing a setup that has zero airflow.

[AlTech]

@Spotty Typo in title "Walmart" instead of "Wallmart"

[descendency]

Just watching Linus' video on it - I wanted to gag. Walmart has earned their reputation for being a cheap shit distributor, but I was expecting slightly better from it for some reason. 

 

The corners they cut were insane. Not painting the back of the PSU saved < 0.01 cents. It looks like shit without it. Then having QC problems like they did - it makes me wonder why they even bothered to put the money down to even bother selling them. (selling a product, especially a brand, isn't free...)

 

I just didn't get the point of this. It might be harder - but I would think Walmart would be more interested in Mac Minis or Intel NUC style builds than gaming desktops (a much more niche product...)

[Canada EH]

4 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

@Spotty Typo in title "Walmart" instead of "Wallmart"

It is not a typo, its a negative name attributed to Mr Waltons store.

[dtaflorida]

1 hour ago, TechyBen said:

Nah, actual thermals on that case are dire. I'd let lack of air filtering go, but no excuse for choosing a setup that has zero airflow.

Kyle found a very easy mod for that. 

 

[Stefan Payne]

9 hours ago, dtaflorida said:

Kyle found a very easy mod for that. 

 

Yeah we're already discussing that.

 

And the PSU he used is actually worse than the Original - got blinded by the Label/Manufacturer it seems...

[Princess Luna]

13 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

got blinded by the Label/Manufacturer it seems..

Marketing $.

[dtaflorida]

On 12/8/2018 at 11:01 PM, Stefan Payne said:

Yeah we're already discussing that.

 

And the PSU he used is actually worse than the Original - got blinded by the Label/Manufacturer it seems...

LOL, that's hilarious. It could only be funnier if it had been the exact same model but with the rebranding on it. 

I wouldn't even bother swapping the PSU if I did get one with the better mobos. Only mod worth doing is add extra airflow. Overall a pretty good deal on the PC after the huge price drop. 

[asus killer]

i told people were overeating, the psu seemed the major real concern and even that was no problem. Youtubers jumped on this to shit on the wallmart pc and did a great job at it. Kyle changed the psu for nothing and Linus just mentioned front usb 3.0 was not a major issue after all on the wanshow.

Sure they weren't great but there are much worst out there.

[Uttamattamakin]

6 hours ago, dtaflorida said:

LOL, that's hilarious. It could only be funnier if it had been the exact same model but with the rebranding on it. 

I wouldn't even bother swapping the PSU if I did get one with the better mobos. Only mod worth doing is add extra airflow. Overall a pretty good deal on the PC after the huge price drop. 

One of the things he did in that video (or does in a latter one) is upgrade the mobo.  This all reinforces my first impression.  The Wal-Mart PC is a good first computer for a young person to get into seeing how computers work.  (Yeah sure if they are around someone who knows what they are doing they can buy parts and yada yada yada).  One of the best ways to figure out how to put something together is to have a working model that is cheap, and experience taking it apart and putting it back together.   

Just my $0.02 US.

[Mira Yurizaki]

7 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

One of the things he did in that video (or does in a latter one) is upgrade the mobo.  This all reinforces my first impression.  The Wal-Mart PC is a good first computer for a young person to get into seeing how computers work.  (Yeah sure if they are around someone who knows what they are doing they can buy parts and yada yada yada).  One of the best ways to figure out how to put something together is to have a working model that is cheap, and experience taking it apart and putting it back together.   

Just my $0.02 US.

My first computer that I was allowed to tinker with was a cheapo HP Pavillion with a Pentium III based Celeron. I certainly learned a lot despite never having built the computer.

 

So I don't believe you need to build a PC to learn how to tinker with one.

[justpoet]

So, it sounds like these are actually not that horrible for the new lower price now if you can plug in a card, handle the USB I/O oddity, and put some cheap spacers on the front of the case from your favorite home improvement store for a couple bucks?  

 

I'm guessing the hot glue was actually a service marker type thing, to know if somebody had messed with the graphics card, and thus why that cable wraps around the graphics card to get to the IO in the back, instead of being more nicely managed.

[Taf the Ghost]

1 hour ago, justpoet said:

So, it sounds like these are actually not that horrible for the new lower price now if you can plug in a card, handle the USB I/O oddity, and put some cheap spacers on the front of the case from your favorite home improvement store for a couple bucks?  

 

I'm guessing the hot glue was actually a service marker type thing, to know if somebody had messed with the graphics card, and thus why that cable wraps around the graphics card to get to the IO in the back, instead of being more nicely managed.

If you got this on a deal, put 65USD into a B360 motherboard and put some spacers on the front panel. That's all this ever needed, in the end. We focused on the PSU because of how badly they cheaped out on the Motherboard. Turns out the PSU was better than the motherboard selection, which surprised us.

 

The single channel memory happened because the motherboard can't handle dual channel. One could flip the memory + motherboard for probably 100USD on the secondary market, which would mostly cover the upgrade cost. The 8700 (non-k) is the right CPU choice, the case looks pretty good and the SSD/HDD are fine. PSU is enough and it's a real Nvidia Pascal card. All they had to do was put 10USD more in parts and they'd be selling these at the original list price.

[Dylanc1500]

31 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The single channel memory happened because the motherboard can't handle dual channel. One could flip the memory + motherboard for probably 100USD on the secondary market, which would mostly cover the upgrade cost. The 8700 (non-k) is the right CPU choice, the case looks pretty good and the SSD/HDD are fine. PSU is enough and it's a real Nvidia Pascal card. All they had to do was put 10USD more in parts and they'd be selling these at the original list price.

Just to clarify, the H310M S2 does support up to 32GB of 2666 dual channel DDR4.

 

This is just an assumption on my part, but its likely that Wal-Mart only wanted to purchase one DIMM to be used across all systems, as they all use the same DIMMs. The DTW2 and DTW3 having two DIMMs instead of a single DIMM.

[Blademaster91]

On 12/7/2018 at 9:01 PM, Stefan Payne said:

And your Excuse is bullshit because not everyone has outdated or crappy units in their lineup. Some even phased out all group regulated stuff in ATX format with 400W and higher.

Be quiet for example. There is no group regulated be quiet that is not EOL by the Manufacturer that is sold today. Even the System Power is Indy...

For Corsair you have to go down to the VS Series.
Some other still have some Group Regulated stuff but they seem to get phased out left and right.

A thing you seem to miss is that the S12II-Bronze lacks Protection!

So if you short something, it will burn until the voltage of that Rail falls under the UVP threshold...

You can see that in the Link about the XFX XT, wich is the newest Seasonic S12II Variant Test I am aware of.

True but what does make it low end?!
Just because you don't know the manufacturer of a unit, doesn't make it bad. The Problem I see with the Walmart thing is that there were people doing the shit who have no idea what they're doing.

Interesting you pick bequiet,  IIRC they're newer to branding PSU's so they don't have a bunch of outdated stuff in the product stack.

What protection is needed? These PC's with a locked i7 8700 and a GTX 1060 aren't using more than about 300 watts. If you're pushing high end hardware hard enough to possibly break something you aren't using some cheap PSU anyway.  The PSU isn't total junk but it isn't even rated for 80 plus bronze and probably uses the cheapest components and capacitors that aren't going to stay within rated specs.  The PSU not turning out to be total junk is also because PSU quality in general has gotten better, though the SI could have put in $10 extra for a better PSU in an expensive gaming PC.

On 12/8/2018 at 11:01 PM, Stefan Payne said:

 got blinded by the Label/Manufacturer it seems...

I can see why Bitwit (Kyle) went with a different PSU, it has nicer sleeved cables, better build quality, and an actual warranty. The better looking cables and  warranty are important IMO since he decided to do a giveaway with it. Although the front glass mod,and putting in a better motherboard really fixed everything wrong with it.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

 The PSU not turning out to be total junk is also because PSU quality in general has gotten better, though the SI could have put in $10 extra for a better PSU in an expensive gaming PC.

PSU quality has gotten better,  Which I thought was obvious and something people should have known before jumping on the "it's really SHIT" bandwagon.  Cheap nasty PSU's still exist (especially when they come in a $50 case),  I'm not sure why people are still surprised that they chose to use a reasonable PSU from the lower end.  If I was to build a mass produced PC for retail sales I would have chosen exactly the same PSU, I'm not paying for 80 bronze cert or powder coating but getting something just as good performance wise.

 

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

I can see why Bitwit (Kyle) went with a different PSU, it has nicer sleeved cables, better build quality, and an actual warranty. The better looking cables and  warranty are important IMO since he decided to do a giveaway with it. Although the front glass mod,and putting in a better motherboard really fixed everything wrong with it.

 

Except if they had of done that and fixed all the other minor grievances people have,  then they wouldn't be able to charge as little as they are.

 

In order to make something cheap you have to cut corners, they used the bare minimum they could get away with without shipping a time bomb.  Why that is a bad thing?

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

Interesting you pick bequiet,  IIRC they're newer to branding PSU's so they don't have a bunch of outdated stuff in the product stack.

öhm, no

In the US; yes.

But be quiet did PSU before Corsair entered it, since 2003 or so.

But in reality the are very old and one of the first "Consumer" PSU Labels...

Quote

What protection is needed? These PC's with a locked i7 8700 and a GTX 1060 aren't using more than about 300 watts. If you're pushing high end hardware hard enough to possibly break something you aren't using some cheap PSU anyway. 

OCP at least on minor rails

OTP and OPP, all set correctly.

 

And with PSU in the higher wattage range, you also want and need multiple +12V OCP Channels.

100A is no joke...

 

Quote

The PSU isn't total junk but it isn't even rated for 80 plus bronze and probably uses the cheapest components and capacitors that aren't going to stay within rated specs. 

If the Design isn't total crap they should still last for many years.

"cheap" caps aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

 

Some people are whining when Caps are dying after 6 Years in a very hostile enviroment like a Flex ATX PSU with a single 40x25mm fan...

 

The "Cheapest Components" might be Schottky Diodes and Power Transistors - wich might even last longer than MOSFETs used in more modern Designs.

Thing is:
Good Capacitors don't make a good PSU!

 

Quote

The PSU not turning out to be total junk is also because PSU quality in general has gotten better, though the SI could have put in $10 extra for a better PSU in an expensive gaming PC.

Yes, I totally agree.

The PSU should have been something with DC-DC wich isn't even 10€ more.

 But they choose not to for whatever reason.

Mostly because the SI don't care.

 

Quote

I can see why Bitwit (Kyle) went with a different PSU, it has nicer sleeved cables,

wich is irrelevant as it doesn't add anything to the electrical performance of the PSU.

And since we're talking about an OEM PC; the optics do not matter...

Quote

better build quality, and an actual warranty.

...wich is to be proven and citation needed.

I've posted something about "build Quality" in the Tier List Sticky Thread as a Response to capacitors.

 

In short:
You need to reverse engineer the PSU and calculate stuff. So when there aren't some Obvious faults like bad solderjoints, Flux Residue, we can not really say anything about the Build Quality.

BUT: The Heatsinks are also part of the Build Quality.

And those are tiny on the S12II-Bronze.

It doesn't have a decent Supervisior either - no UVP on +12V, ono OCP, no OTP, only the Bare Minimum.

 

So no, "build quality" is a lie in this case.

As said earlier, "Wapanese Caps" don't make good "Build Quality", there's way more to the PSU!

 

Quote

The better looking cables and  warranty are important IMO since he decided to do a giveaway with it. Although the front glass mod,and putting in a better motherboard really fixed everything wrong with it.

The PSU is actually worse as I've posted a couple of Reviews.

The Voltage Regulation of a Similar LC-Power look a bit better than Seasonic. And it seems to have OCP on all rails - Seasonic does not.

So no, its not really good.

He should have gone for a different PSU - like Corsair VS...

[mariushm]

The only flaw of Kyle is that he doesn't have the technical knowledge and didn't do thorough research - but I don't expect a person to be excellent in everything and I don't expect him to know everything about every component in a computer. It's not realistic.

You can't expect every youtuber to open the case of each power supply, to know from the layout what design the power supply uses, what supervisor (the chip with protections) it uses, quality of capacitors and fan and other things.

He simply made some logical assumptions ...

* unpainted gray case is indicative of cheap power supply,

* no sleeve on cables is either a sign of very old stock of power supplies or very cheap power supply since most new power supplies have either sleeves or ribbon cables 

* if it had a voltage select switch on the back, I personally would have determined the psu doesn't have Active PFC which means it's old design that would barely reach 80% efficiency.

* the brand "Great Wall" was less known to him, as Great Wall (like Chicony, Sirfa, Fortron Source, AcBel and others) are OEMs and make power supplies for others to sell under their own name (Sirfa sells their own as Sirtec in Europe, as Highpower in other places, Fortron sells as FSP etc) 

* lack of any 80+ rating on the psu label made him assume this power supply is based on a design so cheap or so old that it could not meet the minimum of 80+ white standard

 

So I'm not surprised he assumed it's bad power supply.

 

Now, if you give points to each "category" that makes a power supply, you'll probably find that the Seasonic psu that he chose will win at pretty much all points. A single missing protection (which in real world doesn't really matter that much) doesn't nullify the other pluses that Seasonic power supply brings.

 

Score the power supply in multiple categories, from less important things like looks to more important stuff like component quality : 

1 case painted or not,

2 cables sleeved, partially sleeved or ribbon

3 cables not modular, semimodular, modular

4 is the fan silent

5. is the power supply fanless, semi-fanless (turns on depending on load), fan always on 

5.1 if so is fan always running at 100% or not

5.2 if semi fanless is psu adjusting fan rpm based on how much power components consume (reading a current sensor etc) or based on temperature of heatsinks inside

5.3 is fan ramping up in 2-3 steps or does it have true adjustable rpm all the way from let's say 20% to 100% of fan speed

6 does it have active pfc or not (or at least passive pfc for <400w models though it's kind of illegal to sell without ActivePFC in Europe)

7 is the fan a quality one, is it from a known brand, do you trust that it will survive the warranty period and longer? warranty on power supply (is it minimum 2 years, or the manufacturer trusts his product to have more)

8 is the design of the power supply

8.1. an older one which splits the total output into some amount for 3.3v and 5v and some for 12v (for example psu claims it does 500w but can do 100w on 3.3v+5v  and 400w on 12v) or

8.2. is it a newer design which can do almost all its output power on 12v and some on 3.3v and 5v, using group regulation for the 3.3v and 5v 

8.3. is it a new design which uses more expensive dc-dc converters to produce 3.3v and 5v from the 12v output, therefore offering all its rated power on 12v

9. is the label correct when it advertises the capabilities of the product ?

9.1 does it specify the maximum currents on each rail?  (the Great Wall does not, it says 24A and 21A tricking you into thinking it's 25A, but in reality it's 40A in total)

9.2 does it specify at which temperature the values are rated at? Does it have derating for higher temps? Good power supplies are rated at 50c, cheaper models (for example CS and VS series from Corsair are rated at 30c) are rated for 30c...40c ambient temperature and have to derate their maximum power if you live in a warm country where the insides of your computer are hot normally

9. does it have reasonably sized heatsinks inside proportional to the amount of heat the psu produces (if the fan dies, will the psu die within hours due to lack of passive cooling or not)

10. are the capacitors used of good quality, that will make you trust that psu will outlive its warranty or are they cheap 3rd or 4th tier Chinese "whatever we find in market today"

11. are other components inside like diodes rated for the power advertised (i've seen 350w psus claiming 16A on 12v, while having 10A worth of diodes inside, and I've seen psus claiming 40A on 12A while having 30A worth of diodes

12. does the psu have protections and if so how many (over voltage, under voltage, over temperature, over curent, over temperature,  etc)

12.1 are the thresholds set at reasonable value (doesn't help me that over voltage exists if threshold is set at 14v, components died already most likely)

12.2 if over temperature, is it set right? does it use a sensor on pcb, or a sensor on heatsink, if heatsink is it just glued there  prone to falling off due to vibration or heat or glue drying or is sensor screwed into the heatsink or clipped (mechanical)

13. if multiple rails is the psu actually having multiple rails or are they all connected togethe on pcb? is there over current protection  on each rail or not

14. is the output clean (voltages within their values +/- 100mV or 50mV, whatever the atx standard says) under normal usage?

14.1 are group regulated or cheaper designs keeping these voltages in safe regions when behavior is out of ordinary? Personally, I care less about extremes like 90% on 12v and < 10% on 3.3v+5v or someone using 100w on 3.3v and 5v and just 10w on 12v because in real world almost nobody has such a pc.   

 

... and I'm sure i can come up with more points but I've wasted enough time already composing this

The point is if you sit down and give scores to each point to each of the power supplies, yes, the seasonic one would lose some points for lacking some protections which again, don't really matter in real world, but gains in a lot of other points above so overall, the Seasonic power supply IS better than the great Wall one in my opinion.

 

However, if you don't mind the looks, I would not consider all the pluses of the Seasonic power supply in total big enough to make me replace the Great Wall one with the Seasonic bronze psu. It would have to be a higher end model, at the minimum with gold efficiency.
 

[mr moose]

Look at all these cheap nasty PSU's that aren't coated or even 80 rated:

 

https://www.mwave.com.au/power-supplies/server-power-supplies