Do you/can you drive a manual?

[Sauron]

In Europe manual transmission cars are extremely common and they were the overwhelming majority up until very recently. Everyone here learns to drive on a manual transmission car, after all it's much easier to make the switch from manual to auto than vice versa.

 

Up until a few years ago automatic transmission cars were more expensive, less reliable, more wasteful and generally just slower than their manual counterparts - so why bother? Now they're a lot better, mostly thanks to extensive computerized control. The price difference is also lower than it used to be.

 

I think in a decade or so most companies will shift their primary lines to electric so all this might no longer be relevant.

[Ithanul]

On 10/25/2019 at 9:11 AM, Velcade said:

Ding Ding.  It's a tesla.

 

The CVT is the wife's car and it's not terrible.

 

 

I'll never understand those that believe MaNuAl OnLy Or YoUrE nOt A rEaL dRiVeR

Nice.  I still want to test drive a Tesla since some folks in my Guard unit have and say it is great.

 

I driven some hybrids though and love driving those around on hilly roads.  Big reason I can't wait for hybrid or electric trucks to come out.  Though, I be so down for hybrid or electric wagon.

 

Agree about the manual, I don't prefer either auto or manual.  But, my fav thing is when I meet folks in IRL like that, depending on age, I turn around and ask, you know how to drive a three on a tree. 

[masethekiller]

Manuals still have better gas mileage than automatics because of how you can drive them. The MPG posted on a sticker is standardized.  For example you can go 30 in 5th gear, an automatic will never do that.  It's the same reason you can go faster in a manual you can shift when you please and to the gear and you can go past the RPM limit, although you probably shouldn't.  

 

 For example in my honda civic with a manual I could get a little over 40 mpg, where the  MPG average rated was a little over 30.   MPG stickers have never been accurate, they are either too low or too high.  They just provide a guideline.   If you really wanted to see what was better, you would have to do some sort of objective test and not just rely on EPA stickers and a test that takes into account economical driving methods in the manual.  

[Commodus]

2 minutes ago, Ithanul said:

Nice.  I still want to test drive a Tesla since some folks in my Guard unit have and say it is great.

 

I driven some hybrids though and love driving those around on hilly roads.  Big reason I can't wait for hybrid or electric trucks to come out.  Though, I be so down for hybrid or electric wagon.

 

Agree about the manual, I don't prefer either auto or manual.  But, my fav thing is when I meet folks in IRL like that, depending on age, I turn around and ask, you know how to drive a three on a tree. 

Having spent some brief time in a Model S... I think you'd get a kick out of it.  You hear about the torque of an EV, but you don't quite appreciate it until you mash the throttle.  It's this solid wave that never seems to stop, at least not on public roads.

 

Something tells me you'll be looking forward to Rivian's R1T truck or Tesla's eventual pickup.  They should have loads of power without the guilt (or the high center of gravity, for that matter).

[masethekiller]

Manuals are cheaper too, thats the main reason people would get them in America .  I did say automatics have improved alot but if your really capable of driving a car, you'll prefer a manual over an automatic. 

 

Also I seriously doubt electric cars will take over gasoline cars , that's just hype.  Electric cars have been around for a century, they have significantly advanced to the point that you can realistically use them since the 1990s.   Yet they make up around 1 percent of the market and that is with huge incentives. The reason they fail is simple, lack of demand.  People don't want electric cars, they cost alot more too.   In europe, a few countries may be able to bully/bribe their citizens into getting electric cars and europe tends to have more draconian laws so I wouldn't doubt in europe a few countries do go all electric due to government mandates.  I dont' think it's ever going to happen in the United States.  

 

 

[Yoinkerman]

On 10/25/2019 at 7:22 AM, xARACHN1D said:

Bruh. A lot of older cars with a manual transmission might be ugly to you, but that could be because you have no taste. Now I understand you said most of them, But I disagree. A lot of older transmission cars are beautiful. We all have different opinions. Personally I would rather own a 1995 Nissan GTR than a brand new Nissan GTR 2019. A lot of people think It is an ugly car, but I love those things.

I literally drive a JDM manual beast.

 

People today buy rav4s and crosstreks and escapes and stuff, they don't buy entry level cars.

 

I'm fine with manuals but I'm not the market 

[Ithanul]

17 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Having spent some brief time in a Model S... I think you'd get a kick out of it.  You hear about the torque of an EV, but you don't quite appreciate it until you mash the throttle.  It's this solid wave that never seems to stop, at least not on public roads.

 

Something tells me you'll be looking forward to Rivian's R1T truck or Tesla's eventual pickup.  They should have loads of power without the guilt (or the high center of gravity, for that matter).

O yes, I am eyeing the crap out of the Rivian R1T.  Be sweet if they manage to hit the specs they are aiming at.  I especially dig they are focusing on off road packaging as well and camping.  Hopefully once it is out and Tesla's pickup, the other manufacturers get some out as well.  I'm keeping an eye on Ford's next F-150 since they plan to do a hybrid of that soon. 

 

Though, the hybrid Rav4 I seen lately on the roads got my attention. 

[Commodus]

5 minutes ago, masethekiller said:

Manuals are cheaper too, thats the main reason people would get them in America .  I did say automatics have improved alot but if your really capable of driving a car, you'll prefer a manual over an automatic. 

 

Also I seriously doubt electric cars will take over gasoline cars , that's just hype.  Electric cars have been around for a century, they have significantly advanced to the point that you can realistically use them since the 1990s.   Yet they make up around 1 percent of the market and that is with huge incentives. The reason they fail is simple, lack of demand.  People don't want electric cars, they cost alot more too.   In europe, a few countries may be able to bully/bribe their citizens into getting electric cars and europe tends to have more draconian laws so I wouldn't doubt in europe a few countries do go all electric due to government mandates.  I dont' think it's ever going to happen in the United States.  

 

 

I don't think you understand.  This literally isn't up for dispute: EVs will take over.  In addition to Europe-mandated bans on combustion cars (usually around 2040), most automakers -- including American ones -- expect to electrify their lineups dramatically in just the next few years.  They're investing heavily in EV manufacturing (including in the US) and charging networks.

 

Also, "lack of demand?"  Have you been paying attention to EV sales?  In the US, the Model 3 outsells every other car in its class, and by a wide margin at that.  Tesla's only real challenge is its ability to keep up with demand.  And cars like the Bolt and Leaf have been popular as well, if not to the same degree.  And that's with EVs costing in the ~$35K range before incentives.  When they drop below $30K, and they will, it's going to be much harder to justify sticking with gas.

 

I'm really looking forward to revisiting this conversation in five years (let alone ten).  The market is going to be dramatically different then.

[PlayStation 2]

1 hour ago, masethekiller said:

Manuals still have better gas mileage than automatics because of how you can drive them. The MPG posted on a sticker is standardized.  For example you can go 30 in 5th gear, an automatic will never do that.  It's the same reason you can go faster in a manual you can shift when you please and to the gear and you can go past the RPM limit, although you probably shouldn't.  

 

 For example in my honda civic with a manual I could get a little over 40 mpg, where the  MPG average rated was a little over 30.   MPG stickers have never been accurate, they are either too low or too high.  They just provide a guideline.   If you really wanted to see what was better, you would have to do some sort of objective test and not just rely on EPA stickers and a test that takes into account economical driving methods in the manual.  

You can still baby the fuck out of a 6-speed automatic (not to mention anything with more gears) to the point of getting manual fuel economy. Mom's got a 2017 SS with the auto and she really is into manual SS territory with fuel economy (which really isn't all that high, ~17 average, largely consisting of city driving) but still.

What year is your Civic? Because if we're talking, say, a 1994 Civic with a 5-speed manual, it had better be getting 40mpg, but if it's something newer, it'd give some more context against the CVTs that Honda puts into the modern Civics.

[The1Dickens]

Number of gears is a tough measure, because yeah, the automatics have 10 gears, and manuals only have up to 8, the final gear ratio is all that is really important, and that's all over the board between marques, models, years, etc. They are pretty much about even, though.

 

Also, I don't think ICEs will completely go away, so the manual/automatic transmission will always have somewhere to be. There is much of the US that just doesn't have a strong electrical grid, so electrical long-haul transportation just would not be effective. And enthusiasts will find a way to make their own fuel at home, or the fuel prices will just be super high (like for R/C cars, it's ~$40USD/gal).

[Lady Fitzgerald]

2 hours ago, Ithanul said:

I turn around and ask, you know how to drive a three on a tree. 

You haven't lived until you shift five on the tree.

2 hours ago, masethekiller said:

Manuals still have better gas mileage than automatics because of how you can drive them

Not anymore. That was once true with older automatics but, with today's automatics, not many people are skillful enough to eek out even a tiny amount of better fuel mileage from a manual over an automatic. As far as EPS mileage ratings go, I can easily get better results than the ratings for both manual and autos. All I have to do is drive sensibly, driving so I don't need to use the brakes as much, play the lights, no jackrabbit starts, etc. I still make as good of time as I would have driving like a maniac.

[Zodiark1593]

2 hours ago, masethekiller said:

Manuals still have better gas mileage than automatics because of how you can drive them. The MPG posted on a sticker is standardized.  For example you can go 30 in 5th gear, an automatic will never do that.  It's the same reason you can go faster in a manual you can shift when you please and to the gear and you can go past the RPM limit, although you probably shouldn't.  

 

 For example in my honda civic with a manual I could get a little over 40 mpg, where the  MPG average rated was a little over 30.   MPG stickers have never been accurate, they are either too low or too high.  They just provide a guideline.   If you really wanted to see what was better, you would have to do some sort of objective test and not just rely on EPA stickers and a test that takes into account economical driving methods in the manual.  

Not true. I've seen automatics make a beeline toward the overdrive gears when you ease off the gas, even if the engine ends up turning 1200 rpm. Many automatics also use a better gear configuration for highway driving, and the torque converter lockup that occurs at speed nearly eliminates the fluid friction losses from the torque converter. Newer designs also engage the lockup at slower speeds as well.

 

There is still pretty substantial loss from the torque converter when varying your speeds a lot (like say, on a mountain road) where a clutch will yield better economy and less heat, and control over the gears allows better economy and response on tighter mountain roads. Though these scenarios represent a very small minority of the average person's driving. Most automatics are geared for best fuel economy of the average driver, and do very well.

 

Many manuals also tend to use shorter gears than their automatic counterparts, allowing for better acceleration, but worse fuel economy. Again, good for fairly niche scenarios, but will not help with fuel economy in average driving.

[Zodiark1593]

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

I don't think you understand.  This literally isn't up for dispute: EVs will take over.  In addition to Europe-mandated bans on combustion cars (usually around 2040), most automakers -- including American ones -- expect to electrify their lineups dramatically in just the next few years.  They're investing heavily in EV manufacturing (including in the US) and charging networks.

 

Also, "lack of demand?"  Have you been paying attention to EV sales?  In the US, the Model 3 outsells every other car in its class, and by a wide margin at that.  Tesla's only real challenge is its ability to keep up with demand.  And cars like the Bolt and Leaf have been popular as well, if not to the same degree.  And that's with EVs costing in the ~$35K range before incentives.  When they drop below $30K, and they will, it's going to be much harder to justify sticking with gas.

 

I'm really looking forward to revisiting this conversation in five years (let alone ten).  The market is going to be dramatically different then.

Wonder how EVs will work in California with PG&E possessing a very itchy trigger finger in regards to outages.

[masethekiller]

Lol Toyota Corolla in 2018 sold more cars alone than all of Tesla, that is one single car sold more than the whole brand.  Electric sales make up about 1 percent of car sales.  Also Telsa except for two quarters has never made a profit, the only reason the company has not gone bankrupt is because of government subsidies. 

 

Electric cars are not rational, maybe some countries in Europe will have them be mandated and forced upon drivers but otherwise  the facts and practicality of electric cars don't pan out. Consumers of their own free will don't want electric cars.  In asia, america, south america, the rest of the world except Europe, gasoline cars will continue to be the norm.  

 

The whole electric car thing and global warming hysteria has taken on a group/herd mentality.  Some people think electric cars are going to magically save the planet. 

[Xiee]

Been driving manuals all my life. My dad prefers them over automatic. We have 3 vehicles at home right now and the only automatic we have is for the Toyota Vios (4-door sedan that my step mom drives around with). Our Nissan Pathfinder and Mitsubishi Mini-van are both manual. 

[bimmerman]

3 hours ago, handymanshandle said:

You can still baby the fuck out of a 6-speed automatic (not to mention anything with more gears) to the point of getting manual fuel economy. Mom's got a 2017 SS with the auto and she really is into manual SS territory with fuel economy (which really isn't all that high, ~17 average, largely consisting of city driving) but still.

What year is your Civic? Because if we're talking, say, a 1994 Civic with a 5-speed manual, it had better be getting 40mpg, but if it's something newer, it'd give some more context against the CVTs that Honda puts into the modern Civics.

Ha, hypermiling my '17 SS (manual) for all it's worth got me....22mpg on the highway for a full tank. I average somewhere in the 15mpg range normally, because really, it makes glorious noise and why wouldn't you want to hear it brap?

 

In general though for the thread's purposes, modern automatics absolutely trounce manual fuel economy when there is a like v like comparison possible. Still doesn't mean I want one, outside of a DCT/DSG type faux-automatic. EVs are definitely the future though. Looking at replacing the SS with a Model 3 Perf in the near-ish future. And/or an ND2 Miata. Probably the Miata because hoooooosiers bro

[bimmerman]

32 minutes ago, masethekiller said:

Lol Toyota Corolla in 2018 sold more cars alone than all of Tesla, that is one single car sold more than the whole brand.  Electric sales make up about 1 percent of car sales.  Also Telsa except for two quarters has never made a profit, the only reason the company has not gone bankrupt is because of government subsidies. 

 

Electric cars are not rational, maybe some countries in Europe will have them be mandated and forced upon drivers but otherwise  the facts and practicality of electric cars don't pan out. Consumers of their own free will don't want electric cars.  In asia, america, south america, the rest of the world except Europe, gasoline cars will continue to be the norm.  

 

The whole electric car thing and global warming hysteria has taken on a group/herd mentality.  Some people think electric cars are going to magically save the planet. 

...have you driven an EV? I've driven a Bolt a lot and have a number of friends who work for Tesla. The Bolt (and Fiat 500e) in particular is fun as hell. Torquey off the line, makes zero noise except futuristic whoooooshes, can drive fully one-pedal with the regen turned up to max, and it doesn't entirely suck at cornering and braking.

 

It's like 7/10 the fun of a Tesla in a more useful form factor. I wouldn't say nobody wants EVs, or are just buying them to virtue signal about environmentalism. They're actually great drivetrains for cars.

[The1Dickens]

1 minute ago, bimmerman said:

Ha, hypermiling my '17 SS (manual) for all it's worth got me....22mpg on the highway for a full tank. I average somewhere in the 15mpg range normally, because really, it makes glorious noise and why wouldn't you want to hear it brap?

I was able to get high 40s, low 50s in my 2013 TDi Sportwagen (or as low as mid 20s if I drove aggressively). I drove to KY and back to CA in my 2001 TDi Sedan for around $500USD and stayed a week. Biggest scare I got on that trip was having to drive 20-ish miles to the next fuel stop because the one I reached when my "low fuel" light came on didn't sell diesel.

[bimmerman]

4 minutes ago, The1Dickens said:

I was able to get high 40s, low 50s in my 2013 TDi Sportwagen (or as low as mid 20s if I drove aggressively). I drove to KY and back to CA in my 2001 TDi Sedan for around $500USD and stayed a week. Biggest scare I got on that trip was having to drive 20-ish miles to the next fuel stop because the one I reached when my "low fuel" light came on didn't sell diesel.

Nice, buddy had an 09 TDI with a manual-- great commuter. It did VW-itself with the fuel pump issue of that gen, but VW covered the repair. One month later, dieselgate happened, so he bought the Bolt. The SS can pass anything on the highway.....except a gas station. It's shockingly bad at that.

 

My E36 M3 would get 30mpg on the highway when hypermiling, but without trying hard it'd do mid-20s. I think that was my most efficient car actually.....smiles/gallon is definitely my primary metric of interest.

[PlayStation 2]

10 minutes ago, bimmerman said:

Ha, hypermiling my '17 SS (manual) for all it's worth got me....22mpg on the highway for a full tank. I average somewhere in the 15mpg range normally, because really, it makes glorious noise and why wouldn't you want to hear it brap?

 

In general though for the thread's purposes, modern automatics absolutely trounce manual fuel economy when there is a like v like comparison possible. Still doesn't mean I want one, outside of a DCT/DSG type faux-automatic. EVs are definitely the future though. Looking at replacing the SS with a Model 3 Perf in the near-ish future. And/or an ND2 Miata. Probably the Miata because hoooooosiers bro

Tell me about it, the exhaust note is the primary soundtrack of the SS... until it's time to fill it up. Thankfully, Costco exists, so at least it doesn't hurt as much as it could.

 

4 minutes ago, bimmerman said:

...have you driven an EV? I've driven a Bolt a lot and have a number of friends who work for Tesla. The Bolt (and Fiat 500e) in particular is fun as hell. Torquey off the line, makes zero noise except futuristic whoooooshes, can drive fully one-pedal with the regen turned up to max, and it doesn't entirely suck at cornering and braking.

 

It's like 7/10 the fun of a Tesla in a more useful form factor. I wouldn't say nobody wants EVs, or are just buying them to virtue signal about environmentalism. They're actually great drivetrains for cars.

A Bolt would be pretty interesting to own, because outside of, say, a Model 3, it's the most practical and usable car of its segment. I'd get a Bolt over a Model 3 anyways simply because a Tesla, to me anyways, gives off the appearance of flexing even though you have a bottom-tier base model. I prefer the way the Bolt looks anyways, looks kinda like if the Honda Fit and the Chevrolet Sonic had a baby rather than a strange bubbly... thing.

[bimmerman]

1 hour ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Wonder how EVs will work in California with PG&E possessing a very itchy trigger finger in regards to outages.

Coworkers have been getting notifications to charge ahead of the scheduled blackouts. Tesla's definitely on top of it, as much as can be done given PG&E's pg&e-ing. Otherwise, I guess you buy a generator?

[bimmerman]

5 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

A Bolt would be pretty interesting to own, because outside of, say, a Model 3, it's the most practical and usable car of its segment. I'd get a Bolt over a Model 3 anyways simply because a Tesla, to me anyways, gives off the appearance of flexing even though you have a bottom-tier base model. I prefer the way the Bolt looks anyways, looks kinda like if the Honda Fit and the Chevrolet Sonic had a baby rather than a strange bubbly... thing.

I'm pretty impressed with the Bolt, to be honest. I'm entirely desensitized to Teslas at this point (they're seemingly every third car here), but I prefer the hatchback format of the Bolt. It's highly entertaining to piss off Vapebro in his WRX from a stoplight with the Bolt. Does torque steer something fierce, though.

[PlayStation 2]

2 minutes ago, bimmerman said:

I'm pretty impressed with the Bolt, to be honest. I'm entirely desensitized to Teslas at this point (they're seemingly every third car here), but I prefer the hatchback format of the Bolt. It's highly entertaining to piss off Vapebro in his WRX from a stoplight with the Bolt. Does torque steer something fierce, though.

Seems like you could piss a vapebro off in a new V6 Camry, much less the Bolt. 

[Yebi]

I'm from a place where manuals are the default, so I guess that answers both questions. However, I think my next car will probably be automatic.

 

I've been firmly behind most of the classic talking points of manual supporters - fun, better control, better mileage, etc. Well, living in a city (even though it gets moderate traffic at worst) has killed the "fun" part, and modern technology has killed every other point. It's honestly funny seeing people in here still argue about the amount of control you have - every modern automatic I've seen can be operated as a semi-automatic. This simple fact alone refutes almost everything fans of manuals say, without even going into modern algorithms used for automatic shifting.

[SenKa]

I drive a 1997 Tacoma with a stick, looking at a '95 jeep with a stick. I don't think I could easily drive an automatic again without some re-learning

 

I personally enjoy cars with as little computers in them as possible, neither vehicle I mentioned have ABS or TCS or anything beyond a radio and a basic ECU. Though, I also very much understand that I am a minority and why I am.