Car Enthusiast Club [Now Motorcycle friendly!] - First thread to 150k! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Bitter]

Tying it all together here, just used a PCI slot cover to fix a minor issue with my new-used Q45 throttle body. The throttle roller was catching in a spot, the metal it runs along had a hitch in it when it was stamped. Used the slot cover to remove the clip, remove the roller, then used it to hold some 600 grit sandpaper and smoothed it down then used it to reinstall the clip. Now it opens through the full sweep smoothly without any 'bumps' like it had before. I know I'd have felt that in the pedal and it would have annoyed me endlessly. I'm already going to be bothered by the slack in the throttle body from the opening mechanism but I think I can work around that by just holding it in slight tension to take up the play without opening the plate, I hope.

[DANK_AS_gay]

6 minutes ago, AlwaysFSX said:

Yeeaaaaaaaaaaah or that

MPKw, the leaps to be negative lmao

 

There is also MPGe, where a direct energy comparison is used. Electricity and gas both contain energy, and you can measure how much energy is used to move a car over a mile, and convert that to amount of gas or vice versa. That's what MPGe is.

 

6 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

So - How many inches to the electron do you get?
Can you even measure that?

Yes. The amount see above.

For a more detailed explanation, energy is measured in Joules. A joule is defined by "the work done by a force of one newton when its point of application moves one meter in the direction of action of the force". Notice that time isn't a part of that unit. But Watts do have time, given that 1 watt = 1 joule/s. Why is this important? Because we can calculate the raw capability to do work of both gas and a battery using Joules, and then the actual work being done using Watts. Or the potential energy contained in chemical bonds. Gas has an energy density of 46 MJ/Kg, and Tesla's Model 3 battery (the 60 kWh version) has an energy density of .3 MJ/Kg. But electric cars have a much higher efficiency than gas cars, as the most efficient ICE engines in production are at roughly 30% thermal efficiency. Electric motors are at a much higher rating, which I do not care to research after doing the math for the MJ/Kg calculation.

[Commodus]

On 10/28/2022 at 6:02 PM, Fast_N_Curious said:

Make it Nürburgring and then see what happens with the GT3 

 

Also: this won't happen with ICE cars: 

 

jk - I admire the electric car for it's low end torque. And don't get me wrong, I am all in for the hybrid electric/ICE race cars as well. I just don't think its nearly as viable as fossil fuels are. 

 

 

Oh, I'll freely admit that EVs have a ways to go on overall track performance. There are some good performers (Porsche Taycan, most notably), but they won't yet make people ditch Ferraris and Lamborghinis for track days.

 

I just think it's important to realize that EV technology is far from static, and we shouldn't presume that ICE will always be better at some tasks. Remember, the stereotype of an EV used to be a small, putt-around-town egg of a vehicle like the Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi MiEV; it stands to reason that the EVs you see several years from now will be noticeably better than the ones of today.

[AlwaysFSX]

22 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

There is also MPGe, where a direct energy comparison is used. Electricity and gas both contain energy, and you can measure how much energy is used to move a car over a mile, and convert that to amount of gas or vice versa. That's what MPGe is.

MPGe is a stupid metric that tells you nothing productive while driving a vehicle.

[DANK_AS_gay]

6 minutes ago, AlwaysFSX said:

MPGe is a stupid metric that tells you nothing productive while driving a vehicle.

It's not supposed to, it's supposed to help ICE owners understand how efficient an electric car is in comparison to their current car. It's a selling point, but obv. you wouldn't actually use it while actually driving.

[Beerzerker]

1 hour ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

There is also MPGe, where a direct energy comparison is used. Electricity and gas both contain energy, and you can measure how much energy is used to move a car over a mile, and convert that to amount of gas or vice versa. That's what MPGe is.

 

Yes. The amount see above.

For a more detailed explanation, energy is measured in Joules. A joule is defined by "the work done by a force of one newton when its point of application moves one meter in the direction of action of the force". Notice that time isn't a part of that unit. But Watts do have time, given that 1 watt = 1 joule/s. Why is this important? Because we can calculate the raw capability to do work of both gas and a battery using Joules, and then the actual work being done using Watts. Or the potential energy contained in chemical bonds. Gas has an energy density of 46 MJ/Kg, and Tesla's Model 3 battery (the 60 kWh version) has an energy density of .3 MJ/Kg. But electric cars have a much higher efficiency than gas cars, as the most efficient ICE engines in production are at roughly 30% thermal efficiency. Electric motors are at a much higher rating, which I do not care to research after doing the math for the MJ/Kg calculation.

All these formulas being thrown around cannot totally predict the amount of energy an EV over a given distance will consume because of all the variables involved with variances in load electric motors are subject to as they operate - That in turn changes the power draw from source which in the case of an EV is the battery.
Even batteries that are capable of sustaining voltage for most of it's charge will eventually start dropping voltage output as it gets near full discharge, a term for it is about the battery going "Flat".
How quickly it reaches that point (Flat) is yet another variable.

In the case of an ICE vehicle you won't run into a gradual decrease in available energy output from it's fuel load diminishing as you would with an EV based on it's available charge left.

Pertaining to an ICE vehicle, what you've got is consistent in what you get from it from full tank (100% fuel load) until the fuel is all gone (0% fuel load) but an EV cannot sustain the same power output from full charge (100%) to full discharge (0%) of the battery.

In general:
As a battery discharges it's voltage potential goes down and as voltage falls, amp draw goes up which will start making things get hot and as anyone that knows about electronics can tell you, heat is the bane of all electronics and electrical devices.
That's because of the simple fact you cannot destroy energy - Once it's in play it has to go somewhere to dissapate... And it will, either as work done or heat radiated.
If the energy, once induced into the system cannot dissapate itself as work done it turns into heat and will start making the components using it start getting warmer and it's an accumilate effect you cannot negate, leading to premature failures of it's components which spells nothing but trouble.

I've also noted many of these formulas tend to not take into account battery condition/age as a variable which will affect things too - It's almost always assumed by these formulas you'll have "X" amount of power and "X" amount of voltage/battery capacity (Full to empty) - That can be done as we all know but it's not being said/expressed in that way here.

I can say the battery in an EV, which is really nothing more than a tank for electrons to be stored in is the same as a gas tank in an ICE vehicle except you don't have to worry about replacing your tank in an ICE vehicle every few years under most conditions but you will with an EV regardless of how you treat it or conditions of where it's operated - Said cost of battery replacement being beyond ridiculous.

I can tell you are for EV's and that's fine - Personally I'll never have one except for maybe an E-Z Go..... Which I'd be OK with. 
I've been around this stuff long enough to know even though the tech is more advanced, at the same time it's still the same once you get back to the basics of "It".

[Bitter]

I'm fairly certain they don't just have the traction motors hooked right to the batteries with a big on/off switch. I suspect most are running through a controller of some kind that is able to take battery in and provide regulated power to them so they're fed with a consistent power. I'm sure there's some cars with power modes that let you go whole ham in some way with lower restrictions to allowed motor power.

[Beerzerker]

40 minutes ago, Bitter said:

I'm fairly certain they don't just have the traction motors hooked right to the batteries with a big on/off switch. I suspect most are running through a controller of some kind that is able to take battery in and provide regulated power to them so they're fed with a consistent power. I'm sure there's some cars with power modes that let you go whole ham in some way with lower restrictions to allowed motor power.

You are correct - They have a controller that varys the voltage/power the traction motors get to accurately control motor speed.
I forgot to mention EV's should be AC instead of DC but the batteries themselves are DC regardless. Power goes through an converter to transform it to AC power which is fine, it even allows it to run strong for most of the battery charge but the problem with AC on a battery is once the battery reaches a certain point of discharge, alot of the time it suddenly goes flat as in it quits.

Usually when they quit, it's just that instead of the gradual decline in power you'd notice from a DC powered motor/vehicle.

I still have a controller here from one (Lift/cart) that's useable from 12 to 72V's of power but it's a DC type controller.

[Bitter]

38 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

You are correct - They have a controller that varys the voltage/power the traction motors get to accurately control motor speed.
I forgot to mention EV's should be AC instead of DC but the batteries themselves are DC regardless. Power goes through an converter to transform it to AC power which is fine, it even allows it to run strong for most of the battery charge but the problem with AC on a battery is once the battery reaches a certain point of discharge, alot of the time it suddenly goes flat as in it quits.

Usually when they quit, it's just that instead of the gradual decline in power you'd notice from a DC powered motor/vehicle.

I still have a controller here from one (Lift/cart) that's useable from 12 to 72V's of power but it's a DC type controller.

Usually there's a reserve programmed into those controllers on EV's so they don't just up and die but I'm sure any idiot can run one flat the same as any idiot can run their car out of gas... despite I'm sure ample warnings about the impending doom.

 

I guess the one upshot is if you're somewhere sunny and have even a modest array of panels you can trickle in some charge to run some basic HVAC even if you can't drive anywhere. As solar cells become cheaper and more efficient and cars become more efficient, I think solar charging will become more viable. You can't drill an oil well and refine some gasoline. 

[DANK_AS_gay]

1 hour ago, Beerzerker said:

snip

AcTuAlLy, MPGe uses the same/similar "course" that the EPA uses for MPG on ICE cars, which tests higher/lower loads, although I am unsure if it tests the cars at high/low battery capacity. Also, @Bitter Tesla reserves 10 or so kWh as "unusable" in order to extend the life of the battery, by making it impossible to fully deplete the battery through software trickery. Because fully depleting it would damage it. (if you didn't know that already)

I personally would say electric cars are unviable in the US until we can get a similar energy density to gas. Maybe in the UK, where things are closer together, or other places in europe. Right now, it takes 11 years for the pollution caused by making an electric car to be offset by the "lack" of pollution produced by driving electric cars. At that point you need a new battery that costs as much as the car is worth, in which case, you get a new electric car. Meaning in the end, THEY MAKE THE SAME POLLUTION. Electric cars don't solve pollution, they just move it where we don't have to see it.

1 hour ago, Beerzerker said:

but you will with an EV regardless of how you treat it or conditions of where it's operated - Said cost of battery replacement being beyond ridiculous.

And the battery is part of the chassis/body in an effort to reduce weight, which is part of why it's so expensive. They also replace the entire battery, instead of the portion that needs to be replaced. Rich Rebuilds fixed Hoovie's Tesla for $5k, as opposed to the $22k Tesla quoted, which was how much Hoovie paid for the car itself.

1 hour ago, Beerzerker said:

I can tell you are for EV's and that's fine - Personally I'll never have one except for maybe an E-Z Go..... Which I'd be OK with. 
I've been around this stuff long enough to know even though the tech is more advanced, at the same time it's still the same once you get back to the basics of "It".

Oh no, I am definitely not. When I did that math I was talking about the actual energy density of a battery vs gas, gas having (46/.3) times more energy per kg than a battery. There are so, so many reasons to not be for electric cars, and billions of dollars from multiple companies doesn't seem to be doing anything at all. It's a money pit.

[Bitter]

Thing is, as technology marches forward batteries will get cleaner. Gasoline probably will not. Hydrogen is cool but....we have batteries. Why waste energy concentrating and compressing then burning hydrogen when you can just electric to battery to motor? Maybe for conversion of diesel engines it makes sense but not so much personal cars. 

[Beerzerker]

2 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

AcTuAlLy, MPGe uses the same/similar "course" that the EPA uses for MPG on ICE cars, which tests higher/lower loads, although I am unsure if it tests the cars at high/low battery capacity. Also, @Bitter Tesla reserves 10 or so kWh as "unusable" in order to extend the life of the battery, by making it impossible to fully deplete the battery through software trickery. Because fully depleting it would damage it. (if you didn't know that already)

What you are referring to is called "Deep Discharge" and yes, it can mess a battery up. Used to see it all the time and folks at the places I was doing work on their equipment were wondering why a battery that was supposed to be good for 5-7 years only lasted for about 2-3 years instead, costing thousands of dollars each.
It's called Proper care and use of", which the workers would not do - Mostly because either they personally didn't care to (The majority of it) or the employer woudn't give them time to do it, instead pressuring them to get going for the sake of production.
In cases when the operators didn't have to deal with the battery themselves, the company was too cheap to spend the $$ for keeping them in good shape, only spending it to repair/patch them and would run them to the point of no repair/non-fuctionality.

I've seen all that many times over.

2 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

I personally would say electric cars are unviable in the US until we can get a similar energy density to gas. Maybe in the UK, where things are closer together, or other places in europe. Right now, it takes 11 years for the pollution caused by making an electric car to be offset by the "lack" of pollution produced by driving electric cars. At that point you need a new battery that costs as much as the car is worth, in which case, you get a new electric car. Meaning in the end, THEY MAKE THE SAME POLLUTION. Electric cars don't solve pollution, they just move it where we don't have to see it.

And from a standpoint of pollution, doesn't matter if you can see it or not - It's still pollution and it's still harmful.

I agree - It's stupid to get something and have to pay alot for it, the equipment to use it, the setup at home to use the equipment to use it, the higher utility bill to keep it going and in just a few short years you have to get rid of it because a given part of it is so expensive the rest of it isn't worth the cost and THEN you'd buy another.
When you think about it, that's just a mobius loop of expensive failure.

2 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

And the battery is part of the chassis/body in an effort to reduce weight, which is part of why it's so expensive. They also replace the entire battery, instead of the portion that needs to be replaced. Rich Rebuilds fixed Hoovie's Tesla for $5k, as opposed to the $22k Tesla quoted, which was how much Hoovie paid for the car itself.

Oh no, I am definitely not. When I did that math I was talking about the actual energy density of a battery vs gas, gas having (46/.3) times more energy per kg than a battery. There are so, so many reasons to not be for electric cars, and billions of dollars from multiple companies doesn't seem to be doing anything at all. It's a money pit.

Well then - I'm glad you can see all that, I certainly do.
 

57 minutes ago, Bitter said:

Thing is, as technology marches forward batteries will get cleaner. Gasoline probably will not. Hydrogen is cool but....we have batteries. Why waste energy concentrating and compressing then burning hydrogen when you can just electric to battery to motor? Maybe for conversion of diesel engines it makes sense but not so much personal cars. 

The problem with Hydrogen is how dangerous it is in the first place.
If the Hindenburg wasn't a clue why, then I don't know what would be.

[Bitter]

Didn't help they painted the skin of it in essentially rocket fuel, thankfully we don't do that with cars.

[DANK_AS_gay]

17 hours ago, Bitter said:

Didn't help they painted the skin of it in essentially rocket fuel, thankfully we don't do that with cars.

Kerosene is rocket fuel too...

[Bitter]

4 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Kerosene is rocket fuel too...

Cars don't run on kerosene.

[Bitter]

New tool at work!

[Fast_N_Curious]

1 hour ago, Bitter said:

Cars don't run on kerosene.

But pretty much any diesel vehicle can run on Kerosene. 

[AlwaysFSX]

17 minutes ago, Fast_N_Curious said:

But pretty much any diesel vehicle can run on Kerosene. 

Except for @JoaoPRSousa's

[bcredeur97]

7 hours ago, Fast_N_Curious said:

But pretty much any diesel vehicle can run on Kerosene. 

Can but modern diesel hpfp says "I go boom" when you do

[AlwaysFSX]

35 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

Can but modern diesel hpfp says "I go boom" when you do

tHaTs NoT tRuE i CaN rUn VeGeTaBlE oIl

[Speakerator]

19 hours ago, Bitter said:

New tool at work!

<snip>

Plugs the leak if Taco Bell hits before the shift is over?  Intimidate and potentially threaten customers and colleagues?

 

For real, what does it do? I only know those inflatable 'pads' to lift stuff, but that looks like it expands in a tube?

[DANK_AS_gay]

20 hours ago, Bitter said:

Cars don't run on kerosene.

it's worse, lamps do

[JoaoPRSousa]

19 hours ago, AlwaysFSX said:

Except for @JoaoPRSousa's

 

Uh? Coal only, sir.

[Bitter]

4 hours ago, Speakerator said:

Plugs the leak if Taco Bell hits before the shift is over?  Intimidate and potentially threaten customers and colleagues?

 

For real, what does it do? I only know those inflatable 'pads' to lift stuff, but that looks like it expands in a tube?

For plugging large or irregular holes with a passthrough hose for adding smoke. For blowing smoke up the largest of assholes.

Mostly exhaust and intake smoking. Turbo stuff for boost leaks, intake systems for vacuum leaks, so on.

[Voytek85]

Since I'm new here and I'm a big petrolhead myself, I can only add one of my own toys and contribute right?

 

 

Exige CUP 430

Race headers, single 200 cell sportcat, and titanium backbox, carbon intake and a full PPF.

Car runs around 480hp at a little over 1000KGs. Pretty quick  

 

Oh, and it's a manual