Tesla Unveils - Semi Truck and next-gen Roadster

[Commodus]

5 hours ago, MyName13 said:

Any news about the model 3?

That wasn't the focus, so not in this case.  It's already in production; Tesla is still struggling to scale up manufacturing; pre-order customers will likely be happy if they get theirs in 2018.

[MyName13]

1 minute ago, Commodus said:

That wasn't the focus, so not in this case.  It's already in production; Tesla is still struggling to scale up manufacturing; pre-order customers will likely be happy if they get theirs in 2018.

So they can't even manufacture the model 3 but are planning to make more models?

[karsnoordhuis]

i think the roadster looks good but has some issues, the truck on the other side...

-i think the truck  (semi) looks HIDEOUS!! yes i know it has good aerodynamics but im used to the (i think) muuuch better looking european trucks. im waiting on the releases from manufactures like mercedes, volvo or daf. 

The range issue here in the netherlands isnt that big of an issue as most petrostations by the highways have charging spots for electic cars.

- the roadster is a good looking car but has 1 big issue. the kind of people with the money for it and interest in speed usually want people to notice them. Thats why they want a loud car, not shure how many people look around when they hear a very quiet humm.

[aubryscully]

@Slick @James Why no OP callout on the WAN show?  Was looking forward to hearing my name

[dizmo]

2 hours ago, goodtofufriday said:

I live a mile from the second largest shipping port in america in one of the most densly populated areas. 

 

We have pretty much zero charging stations. So i have no idea what you are talking about. 

 

And a chargong station can have plugs for cars and trucks. Why would they keep it exclusive to one vehicle? Doesnt make any sense when you consider that gas stations hold 4 kinds of gas in giant tanks under the floor. 

Tesla csn surely afford two different charging plugs and s charging area. 

 

Please think out your answer a bit more, and please think about teslas chsrging network on a global scale. 

Haha, where to start.

 

 

Like I said. There's an extensive network of charging stations.

 

 

Soon it will be like the UK.

 

 

And they're expanding at a pretty solid pace.

 

You live in Long Beach? So I'd say within 10 to 15 miles of you there's 7 Supercharging stations, and countless destination chargers. You don't need to have one on every block, that's not how they're designed, though I'm sure over time as there are more cars that will be what happens. It'd be stupid to invest that much in infrastructure before you have demand. Not only that, but you're supposed to charge the car at home. That's the whole point of it. Charging stations are for those traveling longer distances where that's not possible.

 

 

A lot of people don't feel comfortable around semis, and they're much larger, requiring a lot more space. Some cities don't even allow semi trucks. Fueling stations will likely be similar to how they are now, just outside of major areas, because it makes the most sense. Also, they use mega chargers, which aren't compatible with their regular cars. I'm sure they can afford to have both in one area, but it'd be pretty stupid to do that. Charging stations don't need to have massive gas tanks, and as you said, they're underground, greatly reducing surface area used. So I'm not sure why you even brought that up.

 

Please, think about your answers before you spit out information that is quite simply incorrect.

 

 

[Egg-Roll]

48 minutes ago, MyName13 said:

So they can't even manufacture the model 3 but are planning to make more models?

This is Tesla 101 ever since Model S. However Semi's are easier to build because of the low production high price, a diesel truck probably costs around 50-80 to build tops. Your average car only costs $5000-$10000 to build

 

9 hours ago, DutchTexan said:

The semi costing 1 million upfront will be a massive deal-breaker for 99% of 'consumers' You can get a brand new 2018 Peterbilt 579, full 6x4 axles, their most powerful engine(500hp @2k rpm and 1850 lb ft @1,100rpm), their longest hood, their biggest sleeper cab with a double bunk, platinum level trim, all their fancy fairings and literally every single thing to make it as expensive as possible from the factory and it would cost.... under 160k

 

The average truck owner wont buy it unless it is long haul, but i now know what i was going to use the fuel into for. The 2017 truck in that link has 200K with 6.5 mpg the savings running 5 days would only be 40,000 in fuel at $2.5/gal and running 6 days 10 hours would be a $71,500 yearly savings. However here in canada we are paying about 4.45/gal (CAD, about 3.70 US), so in one sense i can see how a trucker could save $100k a year. but even a 2 year payback period one is still looking at about $15,000-$25,000 in payments. What tesla likely included to excuse their pricing is oil costs maintenance costs, and stupidly only pointed to the windshield. A truck has more downtime in the shop getting routine maintenance being done than having a broken windshield.

 

So yea sure 160k is cheap but if you use it 6 days at 10 hours you're looking at that 160k in 2 years quickly turning into 360k in 2 years with fuel alone, likely close to 400k with everything plus insurance. Unlike a normal truck after a 2 year payoff a tesla truck is cheap to run, a normal truck you still have the 100k in fuel plus everything. If they price the truck at $500k it will go like hotcakes with long haulers or daily 8-10 hour users.

[79wjd]

14 hours ago, Cookybiscuit said:

Can't wait to see the crashes people have in these. A person who isn't into cars driving something capable of 0-160mph in less than nine seconds doesn't mix.

A car that does 0-60 in 9 seconds is too much for most people....

13 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

I think I may have found my next car! 0-100 in seconds AND a convertible AND electric! Sign me up, Elon!

Honestly, as much as I'd love to get behind the wheel -- once -- it wouldn't be my first choice of performance cars. Engine sound is a quintessential part of the fun.

 

@DutchTexan

Walmart already placed 15 orders as did others: https://electrek.co/2017/11/17/tesla-semi-walmart-order-new-electric-trucks/

[MoonSpot]

32 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

 If they price the truck at $500k it will go like hotcakes with long haulers or daily 8-10 hour users.

Not without wide spread charging stations they won't(Long haul).  Looking at the money is all well and good, but if it can't do the job; then it can't do the job.  Their day cab model could be very solid, and pretty much the point of stating most deliveries are within 250 miles.

[goodtofufriday]

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

Haha, where to start.

 

 

Like I said. There's an extensive network of charging stations.

 

 

Soon it will be like the UK.

 

 

And they're expanding at a pretty solid pace.

 

You live in Long Beach? So I'd say within 10 to 15 miles of you there's 7 Supercharging stations, and countless destination chargers. You don't need to have one on every block, that's not how they're designed, though I'm sure over time as there are more cars that will be what happens. It'd be stupid to invest that much in infrastructure before you have demand. Not only that, but you're supposed to charge the car at home. That's the whole point of it. Charging stations are for those traveling longer distances where that's not possible.

 

 

A lot of people don't feel comfortable around semis, and they're much larger, requiring a lot more space. Some cities don't even allow semi trucks. Fueling stations will likely be similar to how they are now, just outside of major areas, because it makes the most sense. Also, they use mega chargers, which aren't compatible with their regular cars. I'm sure they can afford to have both in one area, but it'd be pretty stupid to do that. Charging stations don't need to have massive gas tanks, and as you said, they're underground, greatly reducing surface area used. So I'm not sure why you even brought that up.

 

Please, think about your answers before you spit out information that is quite simply incorrect.

 

 

You act like thats a lot of charging stations. Most of those locations have a handful of stations in them. 

If you believe that 1,200ish locations is even considered a decent number then im not sure what to tell you. In america that amounts to non-existent. Especially in urban areas with tens of millions in population. Not about to drive 15 or 20 miles to charge my car, and lord knows i cant store my car in an apartment to charge it. 

That map might look nice but zoom in and then lets see how plentiful the stations are. 

Dont forget here we can drive for 12 hours and still be in the same state. 

 

As for driving with semi trucks on the roads, in america that is normal. In the city it is normal. In the suburbs is normal. At the gas stations its normal. 

 

Most gas stations support both semi trucks and cars. There is limited real estate in urban areas. So this is a must. 

I dont understand why you think having semi truck and car chargers at one location is dumb. 

 

 

I again emplore you to think about this on a global scale, and at a scale of population as well. 

 

[Commodus]

1 hour ago, MyName13 said:

So they can't even manufacture the model 3 but are planning to make more models?

It's a classic Tesla thing: promise the Moon before it's finished delivering its existing promises.  I don't think the semi truck and the roadster are huge problems given that they're both limited-production models, but it'd be nice if Model 3 production was at full bore before Tesla talked about future vehicles.

[dalekphalm]

7 minutes ago, MoonSpot said:

Not without wide spread charging stations they won't(Long haul).  Looking at the money is all well and good, but if it can't do the job; then it can't do the job.  Their day cab model could be very solid, and pretty much the point of stating most deliveries are within 250 miles.

In the US, there are literally charging stations everywhere, in just about every major city, and along pretty much every major interstate. Someone above posted a map showcasing said charger locations.

 

Canada, I don't think is very wide spread yet, outside of a few hub locations in the biggest cities, so I can't comment too much on how the Canadian market would fare.

[MoonSpot]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

In the US, there are literally charging stations everywhere, in just about every major city, and along pretty much every major interstate. Someone above posted a map showcasing said charger locations.

 

Canada, I don't think is very wide spread yet, outside of a few hub locations in the biggest cities, so I can't comment too much on how the Canadian market would fare.

Longhaul drivers don't always know where they're going.  One week it's to the bush to pick up from loggers, another week it's to the heart of a metropolis, and another week its to the middle of nowhere to drop off and comeback empty. 

If you're going on the same run every day for years on end (like a Wallmart distribution centre in Cornwall Ontario to a walmart distribution centre in Quebec City) then it can make a lot of sense; but you're talking about the sort of runs a day cab does.  You can even plan out alternate locations to charge-up in case shit happens.

 

What do you do if you ask to plug in somewhere and they say no?  That can really frack up someones day.  As goodtofufriday said, zoom in on those maps and you start to get an idea of how spares the stations actually are, North America is a fracking HUGE landmass.  And thats assuming that the semis can use the same stations as cars, I don't know if that's the case or what the catches are in doing so.  That said it's getting better and better all the time, and wider adoption of tesla day-cabs will only make a tesla longhauller more and more viable as time goes on and the network expands.  Just probably not the best to dive head first into tesla for langhaul and be the person having to break all the new ground for others each and every day.

[Drak3]

50 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

In the US, there are literally charging stations everywhere, in just about every major city, and along pretty much every major interstate. Someone above posted a map showcasing said charger locations.

 

Canada, I don't think is very wide spread yet, outside of a few hub locations in the biggest cities, so I can't comment too much on how the Canadian market would fare.

So, basically a non viable truck in the US. Just like every other EV semi.

[DutchTexan]

I think the real question is why do people always suck up anything and everything Elon Musk? Equally, there are fellow South Africans like me that are hyper critical of Elon Musk. It's nice that he is trying to innovate, but there are always realities that people just don't consider or over simplify in favor of Tesla. 

 

Range: 500 miles is very poor (vs easily 2,000)

Price: 1 million or 750k is OBSCENE (vs 160k for top of the line or 75k for similar competition)

Infrastructure: Very poor (that map was pretty, but the 'dots' on the map were 75 miles wide)

'Savings': So 'refilling' the battery 4 times as often will save you enough money and time that they can charge over 10 for the vehilce. Right. 

 

2,000 miles of diesel = ( $2.65(2,000/5.5) ) = $963.64

let's say $1,000 [$1,100 if diesel was over $3.00/gallon]

 

300 miles for the Model X = $13.66 [Tesla's estimator] 

 

Let's assume a semi truck would need at least 5 of these batteries to work, which probably won't be the case.

 

Charging 5 Model X batteries for 2,000 miles = 6.67(5 * 13.66) = $455.56

 

That's a significant amount of savings for 2,000 miles of trucking. Worst case scenario it's $1,100 vs maybe $500.

 

You just have to get over stopping 4 times as often at the bare minimum, assuming there will be stations available perfectly. Also, one would have to assume the destination is reachable... 

2 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

This is Tesla 101 ever since Model S. However Semi's are easier to build because of the low production high price, a diesel truck probably costs around 50-80 to build tops. Your average car only costs $5000-$10000 to build

 

The average truck owner wont buy it unless it is long haul, but i now know what i was going to use the fuel into for. The 2017 truck in that link has 200K with 6.5 mpg the savings running 5 days would only be 40,000 in fuel at $2.5/gal and running 6 days 10 hours would be a $71,500 yearly savings. However here in canada we are paying about 4.45/gal (CAD, about 3.70 US), so in one sense i can see how a trucker could save $100k a year. but even a 2 year payback period one is still looking at about $15,000-$25,000 in payments. What tesla likely included to excuse their pricing is oil costs maintenance costs, and stupidly only pointed to the windshield. A truck has more downtime in the shop getting routine maintenance being done than having a broken windshield.

 

So yea sure 160k is cheap but if you use it 6 days at 10 hours you're looking at that 160k in 2 years quickly turning into 360k in 2 years with fuel alone, likely close to 400k with everything plus insurance. Unlike a normal truck after a 2 year payoff a tesla truck is cheap to run, a normal truck you still have the 100k in fuel plus everything. If they price the truck at $500k it will go like hotcakes with long haulers or daily 8-10 hour users.

A diesel semi can be had brand for 80k usd, so I imagine they are even more inexpensive to produce. Overall I agree with your points. In the long, long run they could be better. Then again, how long do those batteries last? Services on trucks is already massively expensive and a bespoke truck could be 10 more expensive and inconvenient.

 

A massive expense is the human being sitting inside the truck. That's where they could save lots of money. Just like with their other cars. They are pushing to take people out of the driver seat.

 

The 160k usd is cheap relative to Tesla, but that's also about as expensive as they get. That 579 sleeper cap Peterbilt is somewhere two people could legitimately live for a week. Realistically, private drivers own their rig and pay maybe 50k usd for a great used one. If Tesla made a sleeper cab it would have been 100% ridiculous, IMO. Only large organizations buy new and when they do buy brand new the costs are way below 90k usd a unit. 

 

I think the money argument for buying a Tesla semi just doesn't make any sense, no matter how you cut it. With the recurring charging needs and just the sheer volume of electrons to flow in order to power an industrial vehicle means that there will be costs to run the thing. Maintenance like you said is a whole other thing and their marketing of naked numbers and a magic windshield is telling.  

 

Another user pointed out that Walmart is committing to buying 15. Of course they are. Look how cool Walmart is now. That's more of a marketing expense than anything logistically related. Walmart only owns over 6,000 semi trucks already...

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, goodtofufriday said:

Most gas stations support both semi trucks and cars.

Not where i live, those stupid overhead shelters (that do nothing for weather) are why. Plus the weird entry points make it hard for most truckers to even bother.

 

30 minutes ago, MoonSpot said:

Longhaul drivers don't always know where they're going.  One week it's to the bush to pick up from longers another week it's to the heart of a metropolis and another week its to the middle of nowhere to drop off and comeback empty. 

1 hour ago, MoonSpot said:

Not without wide spread charging stations they won't(Long haul).  Looking at the money is all well and good, but if it can't do the job; then it can't do the job.  Their day cab model could be very solid, and pretty much the point of stating most deliveries are within 250 miles.

f i didn't have a life i would create a map of charging radiuses with likely strategic places where to put them, but thankfully for you i do have a life  Simply put because the semi's will need new charging stations Tesla will obviously study where to put them. Besides i know no trucker who would send a fully loaded truck on a unassumed road for more than 120 miles w/o some relay point or buddy system, esp if it's their own personal truck.

 

I would also like to point out most freelance truckers get a chance to view their jobs before given, this means someone who drives a Tesla Semi that they own would decline any job that they can't do, whereas a company truck with a idiot behind the dispatch to a new driver or even a experienced one might just cause such issue as the truck running out of juice. Basically you're going to more likely see a Loblaws truck or Walmart truck dead then a freelance Tesla, because some dumbass screwed up.

 

40 minutes ago, MoonSpot said:

What do you do if you ask to plug in somewhere and they say no?  That can really frack up someones day.  As goodtofufriday said, zoom in on those maps and you start to get an idea of how spares the stations actually are, North America is a fracking HUGE landmass.  And thats assuming that the semis can use the same stations as cars, I don't know if that's the case or what the catches are in doing so.  That said it's getting better and better all the time, and wider adoption of tesla day-cabs will only make a tesla longhauller more and more viable as time goes on and the network expands.  Just probably not the best to dive head first into tesla for langhaul and be the person having to break all the new ground for others each and every day.

First, as i said and as stated in the videos the trucks are not using current charging stations. The new charging stations can be put anywhere where trucks are, this means sleeping areas checkpoints etc.

Secondly current charging areas in the USA are only current. Obama initiated a 25,000 mile ev friendly bill last year before he left office. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2016/11/03/obama-administration-announces-new-actions-accelerate-deployment So the current setup is only current, and not what it will be in 2 years time.

 

Thirdly, watch the 9 minute video i posted on page 5.

 

2 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

Another user pointed out that Walmart is committing to buying 15

I was the first person to point that out

 

3 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

If Tesla made a sleeper cab it would have been 100% ridiculous, IMO.

Isn't the first truck a sleeper?  It's taller and longer in the cab.

 

13 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

With the recurring charging needs and just the sheer volume of electrons to flow in order to power an industrial vehicle means that there will be costs to run the thing.

42 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

'Savings': So 'refilling' the battery 4 times as often will save you enough money and time that they can charge over 10 for the vehilce. Right. 

First, Tesla built the truck with most drivers in mind on a single charge, something GM has yet to figure out how to do.

Second, they built the trucks to fit guidelines and the charging system to work along with them, 30 minutes for 400 miles i think? and you need to break every few hours for 30 minutes? In canada we need 8 hours 30 minutes but one could take the 30 minutes in the middle much like how normal workers do it https://www.trucknews.com/blogs/new-hos-regulations-effective-july-1/ That being said if it's a 8 hour long depot run one could easily recharge said truck at the depots and one in the middle and comply with all regulations.

Third, truckers are not stupid car drivers who will drive for 12 hours w/o breaks, if they do so and get caught they get fined. Tesla did a great job maxing the batteries in a way if allows truckers to get places and doesn't force them to make unnecessary stops. If you're driving a truck and want to keep driving after the legal allowance w/o breaking, you are literally a killer in my books. They have the laws in place to avoid fatigue, by exceeding these limits you put everyone's lives at risk.

Forth, yes there are costs but before i went to sleep i realized one simple thing. Diesel's price per gallon is about 15 cents more expensive than what's stated on their overhead display, this means one of 2 things their price comparision didn't include electricity costs in both charts or they where simply being nice.

 

I also watched the WAN show and i think i should point out it takes about 6 minutes to fill up a tank full plus all the other BS that's involved. by putting charging stations in strategic places minimal time loss will happen.

The worst that a tesla truck would need to go threw is 2 cards 2 plugin points possibly on the same side, done (im guessing)

 

46 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

Then again, how long do those batteries last?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110149_tesla-model-s-battery-life-what-the-data-show-so-far

I would assume this is to only get better as tech improves, so a trucker might need to replace a battery pack in 5 years. assuming one gets 500 battery, a 5% is 25 mile loss per year, assuming you take all require breaks and abuse the hell out of the truck losing 5% every year in year 5 you might need to upgrade, however it depends on charging habits, weather etc. Also with the recent news when tesla boosted the lower models battery size via a update one could assume they would put enough juice in there for 600 miles which would lower the actual % decrease greatly because one can never charge fully the battery.

[Mihle]

The Tesla truck is not ment to be able to do every truck job, it's ment to do the ones it have range for, and that's quite a bit of jobs.

 

Also, it won't be used in Europe, they are too big. Europe have a max limit on its lenght that is much less than US.

[dizmo]

19 hours ago, JCBiggs said:

The batteries need to be in the trailer.  With the truck having only enough range to make it to the next pick up,  they don't dead head very far anyways so it could work.   Then you give it a 1000 mile range, slightly less load capacity, and it can charge in an hour instead of 30 minutes.  Now ur talking. ...
-snip-

I don't think the batteries in the trailer makes much sense. I mean I do get where you're coming from, but the cost would be many times that of having them in just the cab. Plus what do you do for container shipments? You're certainly not putting batteries into those.

 

I think this was more of a wow factor launch than anything. Something for the laymen to get excited about. I'd imagine people who are actually looking to buy them have more info on the matter.

18 hours ago, DutchTexan said:

The sports car is a good idea, but the semi truck are more of a fashion statement than anything else, IMO. Totally unrealistic for any serious freight.  

 

Okay. Yes. There will probably be a bunch of those semis throughout California and up and down the northeast coast, one day. It's still not going to be a revolution and the vast majority of the transportation and logistic needs will not be met.

 

It's just like that solar panel roof deal that everyone was all excited about about a while ago. Sure, it could work and technically be useful, but it already cost over 10k to redo my roof every 10-15 years. Tesla is forward thinking and innovative, but totally unrealistic the majority of the time. Again, California and NY is only a small fraction of the entire US. 

 

Coal is more efficient than internal combustion. Coal is also more efficient than solar energy (solar and internal combustion are around the same, no?) Then, wind turbines can be more efficient than even coal.

 

For the Tesla semi trucks to really work for the entire nation, they would need to cost around 100k per unit and Tesla would need to invest trillions into infrastructure, directly or indirectly. 

If his facts are right, and 80% of freight is done within 250 mile areas, that's a pretty solid chunk of the market to be targeting. I've noticed most of the people saying it's unreasonable in this thread are talking about either long haul, or private individuals, and I don't think either are what Tesla is targeting with these vehicles. That said, who knows, maybe they're not that expensive and they'll be more widely accessible. We simply don't know, and we can argue either way in terms of cost.

 

Yeah, the roof idea is a little odd. Hopefully he didn't invest a great deal in it, but it's only a matter of time before it becomes viable in a much wider range of places. The UofC is currently working on solar panels that work in areas that don't get nearly as much direct sunlight. There's also the fact that there are government rebates, incentives, and you can sell power back to the power companies. With all those included a lot of owners actually get a net return. IIRC the roofs also have a significantly longer life span, though we'll see if that's true. You have to start somewhere.

 

Coal is also being phased out...so that's kind of a moot point.

 

I don't understand your view here. You're making it seem like for this to be successful he has to replace the entire countries semis, and all at once. That's not at all a realistic view to take.

18 hours ago, Phate.exe said:

-snip-
I'm saying that the numbers they are claiming are extremely difficult, even for race cars running parts and maintenance schedules intended for racing.

I found this a sort of interesting quick read that sort of explains how the performance numbers aren't that hard to come to.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-battery-researcher-told-us-about-the-tesla-1820558723

As you've said, it all comes down to the tires. Which really isn't that hard to believe. Put on super good tires, get super good results. It's a $200,000 car, not a $90,000 car

16 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

While i was expecting the pickup to come out first I'm happy they did this first.

The only thing i dont like about Teslas price comparison is the KWh prices, It's going to be hard to keep those rates low.

 

Assuming the semi will cost 1 million usd they claim it will not breakdown for 1 million miles that's a $1 a mile. Tesla claims 2kWh per mile or about $0.14 per mile, which leaves $0.12 for tires.

However next to being the only company to put "Baddass" on it's product page for a semi, it also claims a 2 year payback period. This raises a few questions, as in what do they require for that payback term? Fuel savings? sure why not it seems to be a "misleading advert" on their site, reason why i say this is because almost no one tallies their gas bill, except truckers.

 

As for WalMart Toronto and maybe Vancouver will likely see them due to the number of chargers we currently have, as well rail yards.

 

On another forum i remember someone posting a rare supercar stuck in traffic like everyone else. They have a valid point in their mockery, why own it if you cant even use it to half of it's potential. It's like owning a yacht but only use it in a drydock, it's stupid. I see something like Koenigsegg or a Bugatti (which i has seen a few or at least 1 multiple times), i actually feel sorry for the rich fool, using such a thing like is was a $5000 beater or even a new $35000 car.

I can't wait for the pick up to come out! I hope they actually give it a little off road prowess, make it something to take on the likes of the Ford Raptor. Though, if we're being honest I wouldn't buy one living here. It's simply too cold for too much of the year, and I wouldn't own a pick up in other places I'd like to live.

 

They guaranteed the price didn't they? I imagine they plan on subsidizing it. Perhaps they get nice government rebates, and once the big rig stations are in they might be quite expansive. It'd be great if they had some new solar panel to release later that blows away what's already out there...

 

If it's $1,000,000 that's...a bitter pill to swallow. I can't wait to see what they do end up costing though. I imagine companies can get rebates and incentives for them as well, bringing down the overall actual cost. I imagine they also incorporated oil costs, maintenance, etc. That might add up pretty quickly as well.

 

As with most things Tesla, it's wait and see, but it'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

 

Haha, I don't think that argument makes much sense at all. That's like saying people that own pick ups, and aren't always carrying something in the back shouldn't own them. The point is you can carry something when you need, just like you can drive fast when you want. Plus the inside of a super car is simply nicer than sitting inside something that's $35k. My last gf's dad gave her a Bentley for a week and it was a very nice experience.

16 hours ago, DutchTexan said:

The semi costing 1 million upfront will be a massive deal-breaker for 99% of 'consumers' You can get a brand new 2018 Peterbilt 579, full 6x4 axles, their most powerful engine(500hp @2k rpm and 1850 lb ft @1,100rpm), their longest hood, their biggest sleeper cab with a double bunk, platinum level trim, all their fancy fairings and literally every single thing to make it as expensive as possible from the factory and it would cost.... under 160k

I have a pretty solid feeling they're not targeting your average consumer with these, but companies. Though honestly even companies might not be interested if they're actually a million dollars. I could see them being closer to $500,000. Have to remember even the interiors don't have a whole lot to them, yeah gauges and such don't cost a ton, but they're more expensive than simply having 2 screens.

16 hours ago, leadeater said:

Sort of related, this is why tourists here have such a hard time driving on our roads and get in to trouble often either by crashing or scaring the shit out of themselves. Interestingly by proportion Germans are the worst.

Not too surprising, German roads are pretty meticulously maintained. Much like Japan.

12 hours ago, mariushm said:

Do you think every wallmart warehouse out there, or every distribution place will pull 100kV lines to the place (paying maybe thousands to tens of thousands of dollars in fees) just to help truckers from random companies fill up their trucks?

Sure, there may be some over night slow charge mode, in which you could connect the truck to regular 110v / 230v mains plugs and have it slowly top up over night, useful for some truck stop or to keep the truck warm

 

Some argue the trucks will come back to the main company yard where they'll charge over night but again... let's say you have 10-20 trucks all charging over night ... that can still a significant load on local power grid.

Yes, I do. Why wouldn't they? It makes the most sense logistically. Plus it's not actually that expensive to add. It'd definitely be tens of thousands, and require transformers, but really in the grand scheme of a property and warehouse the capital cost is small. Also, most of the companies thinking about this own the trucks. So that's where it begins to make more sense. I don't think private operators will be using these for many, many years.

 

Haha, I don't think charging overnight makes sense when you can simply plug them in for half an hour in the morning while you're doing your paperwork and getting ready for the day...

10 hours ago, leadeater said:

If it's 1000kWh and a 30 minute charge gives it 80% charge then holy shit that's 1,600kWh input, that's a heck of a lot of safety required and are we also now expecting truck drivers to be electrical engineers for safety reasons? Maybe this is creating the modern day Gas station attendant, "I plug trucks in to charge" lol.

I don't think it's that big of an issue. If it's properly built and insulated, it's no different than picking up any other plug. Take your house for example, you can flick the breakers right? Take away the panel, and it becomes something that'd kill you instantly. But you don't need to be an electrician to flip your breakers.

7 hours ago, aubryscully said:

@Slick @James Why no OP callout on the WAN show?  Was looking forward to hearing my name

Someone sounds a little narcissistic

6 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

A car that does 0-60 in 9 seconds is too much for most people....

Honestly, as much as I'd love to get behind the wheel -- once -- it wouldn't be my first choice of performance cars. Engine sound is a quintessential part of the fun.

 

@DutchTexan

Walmart already placed 15 orders as did others: https://electrek.co/2017/11/17/tesla-semi-walmart-order-new-electric-trucks/

To be fair, only a very small percentage of the population will be spending $200k on a car

A lot of newer vehicles are pumping engine and exhaust sounds into the cabin through the speakers. I don't like the idea, but I get why they're doing it. Still not sure if I'd just prefer the actual sound though...

 

I found it odd that of the 15 they ordered, 10 will be sent to Canada. Cold weather climates don't pair well with battery technology. Perhaps that's the excuse they'll use when they don't perform the way they'd like.

6 hours ago, MoonSpot said:

Not without wide spread charging stations they won't(Long haul).  Looking at the money is all well and good, but if it can't do the job; then it can't do the job.  Their day cab model could be very solid, and pretty much the point of stating most deliveries are within 250 miles.

I think that's what they're aiming for. Both corporations, and shorter trips. It doesn't really make sense for long haul, as you've said in many of your posts. I don't think they should be looked at as a be all end all replacement for transport trucks, they're simply an addition. Gaining penetration into potentially 80% of the market is a very solid start, plus look at the Tesla rig compared to what Cummins came out with. Theirs only gets 100 mile range. You have to give them a little credit I agree that without the high capacity charging stations it's a little premature for companies to consider these, but if you factor in day trips, then the charging station argument goes out the window. Simply get them installed at the distribution centers. Done deal, and you can put them in to the capacity you need, rather than potentially waiting at one that isn't owned by you.

5 hours ago, goodtofufriday said:

You act like thats a lot of charging stations. Most of those locations have a handful of stations in them. 

If you believe that 1,200ish locations is even considered a decent number then im not sure what to tell you. In america that amounts to non-existent. Especially in urban areas with tens of millions in population. Not about to drive 15 or 20 miles to charge my car, and lord knows i cant store my car in an apartment to charge it. 

That map might look nice but zoom in and then lets see how plentiful the stations are. 

Dont forget here we can drive for 12 hours and still be in the same state.

 

Most gas stations support both semi trucks and cars. There is limited real estate in urban areas. So this is a must. 

I dont understand why you think having semi truck and car chargers at one location is dumb. 

 

I again emplore you to think about this on a global scale, and at a scale of population as well.

I don't get your point of view at all. Charging stations aren't mean to be the primary method of charging your vehicle. The entire point of them, is that you charge them at home. These are meant to be used when you either have traveled and that's not an option, or if you suddenly find that you don't have enough to get where you're going. Just going to ignore that point because it doesn't fit into your argument?

 

My point is that the semi isn't going to be charging at most fuel stations that cars use. There aren't sufficient entry points, or even space at most of them. If it's day trips, it makes more sense to simply have the charging station at the point of departure.

 

Why would I look at this on a global scale? That has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and in many countries electricity isn't even widely available. This isn't a global issue, so I don't know why you decided to turn it into one.

5 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

In the US, there are literally charging stations everywhere, in just about every major city, and along pretty much every major interstate. Someone above posted a map showcasing said charger locations.

 

Canada, I don't think is very wide spread yet, outside of a few hub locations in the biggest cities, so I can't comment too much on how the Canadian market would fare.

I don't think it needs to be that widespread in Canada, as most of the population is in the lower areas. Granted traveling would be a little tricky, but really one can just rent a car for that. On the west coast for example, there's charging stations all the way up to Whistler, and very few people I know travel farther north than that. Plus (most of) the Canadian climate isn't really suitable for electric vehicles yet.

[leadeater]

35 minutes ago, dizmo said:

I don't think it's that big of an issue. If it's properly built and insulated, it's no different than picking up any other plug. Take your house for example, you can flick the breakers right? Take away the panel, and it becomes something that'd kill you instantly. But you don't need to be an electrician to flip your breakers.

True but once you go over certain voltages or currents there a legal requirements to work on them at all, no matter the safety equipment. For instance I'm allowed to plug/unplug devices for the output of our 160kva datacenter UPSs but I'm not allowed to touch the input, however I am allowed to operate the bypass switch but I'm not allowed to open it's cabinet.

 

I can see Tesla starting to trip over electrical safety laws in some countries soon as they try to push more power in to their batteries faster, not that new regulations and safety standards couldn't solve this but I don't doubt specific regulations are going to have to be created at some point for EV cars and charging.

 

For the truck charging we are getting in to the realms of energy that can instantly ionize air causing an electrical explosion that can and has killed many people who are trained to operate on such equipment. The risk of it can easily be mitigated by multiple charge phases were power is increased in steps and constantly monitored for problems and a very well designed plug/connection but I could still see it being only allowed to be used by people who have been trained and certified to use it, I'm not talking significant amounts of training but I wouldn't just let any random person plug in a truck to charge if we are throwing in enough power to 80% charge it in 30 minutes.

[79wjd]

@dizmo a sound box completely kills the joy of driving. The 4 cylinder 718 Cayman is far less fun to drive than the old 6 cylinder Cayman -- mostly due to the gearing and the fact that the old Cayman will happily sit at 8000rpm and just fly whereas the 718 Cayman wants to sit at like 2000-3000rpm, but the sound (and sound box of the 718) definitely plays a part.

[leadeater]

12 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

@dizmo a sound box completely kills the joy of driving. The 4 cylinder 718 Cayman is far less fun to drive than the old 6 cylinder Cayman -- mostly due to the gearing and the fact that the old Cayman will happily sit at 8000rpm and just fly whereas the 718 Cayman wants to sit at like 2000-3000rpm, but the sound (and sound box of the 718) definitely plays a part.

And the old one doesn't use electric drive by wire steering, hydraulic is at least still mechanically connected.

[DutchTexan]

3 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

Not where i live, those stupid overhead shelters (that do nothing for weather) are why. Plus the weird entry points make it hard for most truckers to even bother.

 

f i didn't have a life i would create a map of charging radiuses with likely strategic places where to put them, but thankfully for you i do have a life  Simply put because the semi's will need new charging stations Tesla will obviously study where to put them. Besides i know no trucker who would send a fully loaded truck on a unassumed road for more than 120 miles w/o some relay point or buddy system, esp if it's their own personal truck.

 

I would also like to point out most freelance truckers get a chance to view their jobs before given, this means someone who drives a Tesla Semi that they own would decline any job that they can't do, whereas a company truck with a idiot behind the dispatch to a new driver or even a experienced one might just cause such issue as the truck running out of juice. Basically you're going to more likely see a Loblaws truck or Walmart truck dead then a freelance Tesla, because some dumbass screwed up.

Regardless of how intelligent or unintelligent truckers are or routes are planned, the limited range in combination with very limited infrastructure is significant. This will limit what any semi truck can achieve regardless of how good or bad the idea actually is.

 

It is not common for massive 18-wheelers to be towing their trailers through the middle of major cities. There are all kinds rules and regulations against large trucks and their relationship with the public. Which is unfortunate, but not impossible, considering that those settings are all that this semi will ever be good for, in my opinion (urban areas with a lot of attention is what justifies the Tesla brand) 

 

 

3 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

First, as i said and as stated in the videos the trucks are not using current charging stations. The new charging stations can be put anywhere where trucks are, this means sleeping areas checkpoints etc.

Secondly current charging areas in the USA are only current. Obama initiated a 25,000 mile ev friendly bill last year before he left office. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2016/11/03/obama-administration-announces-new-actions-accelerate-deployment So the current setup is only current, and not what it will be in 2 years time.

 

Thirdly, watch the 9 minute video i posted on page 5.

 

I was the first person to point that out

 

Isn't the first truck a sleeper?  It's taller and longer in the cab.

 

First, Tesla built the truck with most drivers in mind on a single charge, something GM has yet to figure out how to do.

Second, they built the trucks to fit guidelines and the charging system to work along with them, 30 minutes for 400 miles i think? and you need to break every few hours for 30 minutes? In canada we need 8 hours 30 minutes but one could take the 30 minutes in the middle much like how normal workers do it https://www.trucknews.com/blogs/new-hos-regulations-effective-july-1/ That being said if it's a 8 hour long depot run one could easily recharge said truck at the depots and one in the middle and comply with all regulations.

Third, truckers are not stupid car drivers who will drive for 12 hours w/o breaks, if they do so and get caught they get fined. Tesla did a great job maxing the batteries in a way if allows truckers to get places and doesn't force them to make unnecessary stops. If you're driving a truck and want to keep driving after the legal allowance w/o breaking, you are literally a killer in my books. They have the laws in place to avoid fatigue, by exceeding these limits you put everyone's lives at risk.

Forth, yes there are costs but before i went to sleep i realized one simple thing. Diesel's price per gallon is about 15 cents more expensive than what's stated on their overhead display, this means one of 2 things their price comparision didn't include electricity costs in both charts or they where simply being nice.

 

I also watched the WAN show and i think i should point out it takes about 6 minutes to fill up a tank full plus all the other BS that's involved. by putting charging stations in strategic places minimal time loss will happen.

The worst that a tesla truck would need to go threw is 2 cards 2 plugin points possibly on the same side, done (im guessing)

What you are saying is that Tesla will be footing the bill to 'remodel' the majority of truck stops in the United States AND all their own current charging stations. 'Refueling' the Tesla Truck would need to be a business with a legitimate market, electricity demand. That's the only way it would really work. This infrastructure, open market or via Tesla alone, translates to some cost for 'refueling' your truck.

 

I don't think General Motors builds semi trucks? Even if they did, are you saying that freight hasn't been figured until this Tesla concept was released? 

 

Those batteries are not expensive and even if they magically last 15 years they will very expensive to replace. If a normal semi truck travels 50k miles a year that would be around 25k usd for a year of diesel. 

 

900,000 USD extra for a Tesla truck is NEVER going to be covered in fuel savings. Even if Tesla maintenance/replacement parts and electricity costs are 0... which we both know they won't be.

 

Diesel could triple in price and STILL make the Telsa Truck look impractical, financially. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

True but once you go over certain voltages or currents there a legal requirements to work on them at all, no matter the safety equipment. For instance I'm allowed to plug/unplug devices for the output of our 160kva datacenter UPSs but I'm not allowed to touch the input, however I am allowed to operate the bypass switch but I'm not allowed to open it's cabinet.

 

I can see Tesla starting to trip over electrical safety laws in some countries soon as they try to push more power in to their batteries faster, not that new regulations and safety standards couldn't solve this but I don't doubt specific regulations are going to have to be created at some point for EV cars and charging.

 

For the truck charging we are getting in to the realms of energy that can instantly ionize air causing an electrical explosion that can and has killed many people who are trained to operate on such equipment. The risk of it can easily be mitigated by multiple charge phases were power is increased in steps and constantly monitored for problems and a very well designed plug/connection but I could still see it being only allowed to be used by people who have be trained and certified to use it, I'm not talking significant amounts of training but I wouldn't just let any random person plug in a truck to charge if we are throwing in enough power to 80% charge it in 30 minutes.

Again, 6 minutes to fuel up vs 5 times the time magically supercharging industrial batteries... Maybe this isn't that big of a deal, it's just another negative. It will never nor should it ever be faster to charge a battery than to pour a liquid. Lithium polymer is a serious things, much more dangerous than even a severe fire hazard.

 

Charging these batteries and balancing all the cells is a massive factor. Even if technology allows it, we are very far away from charging 14.8 volt 4 cell lithium batteries in that time safely and reliably. Let alone producing those batteries in ways so that they can handle dozens of cycles a week for more than a several years. On top of that, there are thousands of cells in series in Tesla batteries. 

 

Electrical physics is all kinds of wild and I can't comprehend how theses supercharging stations and Tesla battery abuse hasn't killed more than a few people.

 

3 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110149_tesla-model-s-battery-life-what-the-data-show-so-far

I would assume this is to only get better as tech improves, so a trucker might need to replace a battery pack in 5 years. assuming one gets 500 battery, a 5% is 25 mile loss per year, assuming you take all require breaks and abuse the hell out of the truck losing 5% every year in year 5 you might need to upgrade, however it depends on charging habits, weather etc. Also with the recent news when tesla boosted the lower models battery size via a update one could assume they would put enough juice in there for 600 miles which would lower the actual % decrease greatly because one can never charge fully the battery.

This is where I feel like I have to remind you that the model 3 is still years away from being filled. Sure, some have been delivered, but realistically the model three is still classified as 'future' or 'on the way'.

 

This is also where I feel like I have to remind you that looking ahead and respecting the environment is a good thing, but there are also people out there who are realistic. The answer can't always be 'one day' technology will xyz.

 

We live right now.

 

 

[DutchTexan]

44 minutes ago, dizmo said:

~snip~

Hella

 

I agree

[mr moose]

25 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I can see Tesla starting to trip over electrical safety laws in some countries soon as they try to push more power in to their batteries faster, not that new regulations and safety standards couldn't solve this but I don't doubt specific regulations are going to have to be created at some point for EV cars and charging.

 

 

ELV in Australia.  I believe as soon as you go over 50 volts you need to be registered to work on it.    You can claim that the device is an appliance and there are ways around said regulations,  However should any fire happen you would in the poo regardless (and without insurance in most cases).

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, DutchTexan said:

Again, 6 minutes to fuel up vs 5 times the time magically supercharging industrial batteries... Maybe this isn't that big of a deal, it's just another negative. It will never nor should it ever be faster to charge a battery than to pour a liquid. Lithium polymer is a serious things, much more dangerous than even a severe fire hazard.

 

Charging these batteries and balancing all the cells is a massive factor. Even if technology allows it, we are very far away from charging 14.8 volt 4 cell lithium batteries in that time safely and reliably. Let alone producing those batteries in ways so that they can handle dozens of cycles a week for more than a several years. On top of that, there are thousands of cells in series in Tesla batteries. 

 

Electrical physics is all kinds of wild and I can't comprehend how theses supercharging stations and Tesla battery abuse hasn't killed more than a few people.

Maybe some of us just have a stronger healthy fear of electricity and how dangerous it can be lol.

[DutchTexan]

13 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

@dizmo a sound box completely kills the joy of driving. The 4 cylinder 718 Cayman is far less fun to drive than the old 6 cylinder Cayman -- mostly due to the gearing and the fact that the old Cayman will happily sit at 8000rpm and just fly whereas the 718 Cayman wants to sit at like 2000-3000rpm, but the sound (and sound box of the 718) definitely plays a part.

Same thing with BMW. The older NA 4 and 6 cylinders sound and drive much, much better than their current twin scroll turbos.