Intel's slapped a 16GB dual-channel minimum entry requirement on Core Ultra laptops

[DuckDodgers]

Intel is tightening the certification requirements around their new mobile platform to keep the integrated GFX performance leveled.

 

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If you want your shiny new Intel Core UItra laptop to come with an equally shiny Arc Graphics badge, then you're going to need to make sure you have at least 16GB of memory inside your machine and that it's configured in dual-channel mode, too.

 

Think about the sort of performance on offer with the top handheld gaming PCs we've seen this year, and you'll be in the right ball-park. Intel is even promising to be, on average, 10% faster than the AMD Ryzen 7 7840U chip those devices all use.

 

But, because the integrated Core Ultra graphics silicon has no discrete framebuffer to call its own, it has to operate with shared memory, and that means calling on the laptop's RAM quotient. And Intel tells us that to hit its performance targets you need at least 16GB of the stuff, configured in dual-channel mode to deliver the bandwidth it needs.

 

The OEMs still haven't learnt from the Vista disaster with underpowered hardware, while Apple is charging $200 for 8GB of RAM upgrade. The PC ultra-portables need to level up.

Source:

https://www.pcgamer.com/intels-slapped-a-16gb-dual-channel-minimum-entry-requirement-on-core-ultra-laptops-if-you-want-top-gaming-performance/

[Lunar River]

Good.

[Alex Atkin UK]

I'd argue it should be 32GB, but overall its fair to say 16GB dual-channel is a bare minimum.

[Poinkachu]

10 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

I'd argue it should be 32GB, but overall its fair to say 16GB dual-channel is a bare minimum.

Agree,

And How I wish they slip the word "UNSOLDERED" before [Put amount of RAM here]

[Alex Atkin UK]

1 minute ago, Poinkachu said:

Agree,

And How I wish they slip the word "UNSOLDERED" before [Put amount of RAM here]

Or at least 32GB if soldered, 16GB if socketed.  Though I don't like soldered RAM period given bad RAM is not entirely uncommon.

[leadeater]

29 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

Though I don't like soldered RAM period given bad RAM is not entirely uncommon.

Commonality vs frequency 

 

I know nitpicking haha, but it's only observed simply due to how much DRAM is out there, it failing is very uncommon yet frequent.

 

Hypercars like Bugatti's and Lambos (top end) fail commonly yet infrequently 

[Alex Atkin UK]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Commonality vs frequency 

 

I know nitpicking haha, but it's only observed simply due to how much DRAM is out there, it failing is very uncommon yet frequent.

 

Hypercars like Bugatti's and Lambos (top end) fail commonly yet infrequently 

True, but when it happens to you (don't think it ever has me except on GPUs where there are good reasons not to use sockets) then it sucks.

There's also the obvious that the life span is longer if you can expand the RAM later too.  Or one of my laptops that has 4GB soldered and a socket, which is the worst of both worlds making it almost pointless upgrading it past 8GB due to having to run in hybrid single/dual channel mode, if that's even supported.

[starsmine]

6 hours ago, Poinkachu said:

Agree,

And How I wish they slip the word "UNSOLDERED" before [Put amount of RAM here]

You can’t have unsoldered lpddr5 until camm2 launches. 

[Poinkachu]

1 minute ago, starsmine said:

You can’t have unsoldered lpddr5 until camm2 launches. 

And until laptop manufacturer decide to use it*

[Dracarris]

9 hours ago, Poinkachu said:

Agree,

And How I wish they slip the word "UNSOLDERED" before [Put amount of RAM here]

9 hours ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

I'd argue it should be 32GB, but overall its fair to say 16GB dual-channel is a bare minimum.

I think anything below quad-channel 256GB memory is unacceptable and absolutely necessary and indispensible for everyone that buys such a machine. I will accept no other use cases. Because the only thing that helps and defines user experience is bigger number more better. Also, they must be regular full-sized DIMMs compatible down to DDR2, the CPU and GPU chip must be socketed, and the machine is not allowed to weigh less than 20kg, be thinner than 10cm and not look horrible. Otherwise, no certification for you.

[Alex Atkin UK]

1 hour ago, Dracarris said:

I think anything below quad-channel 256GB memory is unacceptable and absolutely necessary and indispensible for everyone that buys such a machine. I will accept no other use cases. Because the only thing that helps and defines user experience is bigger number more better. Also, they must be regular full-sized DIMMs compatible down to DDR2, the CPU and GPU chip must be socketed, and the machine is not allowed to weigh less than 20kg, be thinner than 10cm and not look horrible. Otherwise, no certification for you.

Except your post is snarky whereas mine is based on genuine use-cases given they are talking about faster iGPUs which means faster RAM is needed and more of it to make good use.

 

Let's not forget, even the Steam Deck has 16GB and some niche cases could benefit from 32GB.

 

Any brand-new laptop with less RAM than a Steam Deck seems a rip-off to me, doubly-so if its soldered.

[Techstorm970]

12 hours ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

I'd argue it should be 32GB, but overall its fair to say 16GB dual-channel is a bare minimum.

Nah that's too much.  Very few common programs, including games, are asking for anything more than 16GB.  They're making 16GB dual-channel the requirement that even laptops well below $1000 need to meet, which is a big deal.

 

In terms of pure performance, the dual-channel minimum is the bigger deal here.

[Techstorm970]

1 hour ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

Let's not forget, even the Steam Deck has 16GB and some niche cases could benefit from 32GB.

So we're comparing gaming consoles to laptops now???

 

Do I need to explain why this is a bad comparison?

[starsmine]

34 minutes ago, Techstorm970 said:

So we're comparing gaming consoles to laptops now???

 

Do I need to explain why this is a bad comparison?

.... Steam deck is just a laptop without a keyboard. 
Do I need to explain why what you said is wild?

Its a linux PC, and you can install windows on it to, and dock it with a keyboard. its a portable all in one. 

My 12GB ram laptop with zen 3 hits pagefile DAILY. Its not even like Im running ram heavy tasks other then chrome on it

16GB is the minimum today for new laptops, and in 2H 2024, if a new laptop is being sold with under 24GB, honestly, its taking the piss. I dont mean super expensive laptops, New ones except for zen 3 all use DDR5. The zen 2 laptops 8020 series uses DDR5. AKA 12GB per 64bit channel is reasonable and cheap. 

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

Except your post is snarky whereas mine is based on genuine use-cases given they are talking about faster iGPUs which means faster RAM is needed and more of it to make good use.

And this is only for "Core Ultra", not anything below that. At least Intel's standard for Ultra is 16GB ram whereas another large brand "Pro" minimum is not at least 16GB 

 

You don't have to buy "Ultra" nor err "Pro", but an actually relevant minimum standard to what should be a meaningful name that denotes quality and/or performance is not a bad thing.

[porina]

Please note the dual channel 16GB requirement is only if you want to have an "Arc Graphics" sticker on the laptop. Manufacturers can still fit less ram if they want to, or alternative single channel configurations. Not every model will be marketed towards graphics performance.

 

Meteor Lake seems mostly targeted at the higher end. In that sense 16GB feels a reasonable amount still for most general users. Specific power users may want more, with optional higher models for more demanding users. 8GB is a bit stingy should a manufacturer go there, but maybe there are niche use case for example in application specific NUCs when the chips eventually reaches those.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Techstorm970 said:

Nah that's too much.  Very few common programs, including games, are asking for anything more than 16GB.  They're making 16GB dual-channel the requirement that even laptops well below $1000 need to meet, which is a big deal.

Laptops below $1000 do not and probably will not always be using top end Intel Ultra CPUs, Ultra is not the only option here.

 

56 minutes ago, Techstorm970 said:

So we're comparing gaming consoles to laptops now???

 

Do I need to explain why this is a bad comparison?

It's not a bad comparison since a gaming console is still a computer and a Steam Deck is just Linux, which uses less ram than Windows, and is purposed for single application workloads, again also requiring less ram.

 

A standard Windows laptop will both use and more likely require more ram than a Steam Deck. While you can use less and it'll work, even quite well that is also entirely down to what the user is actually doing. Putting 16GB in to almost every laptop isn't actually that expensive, why it is not being done has more to do with supply chain and stock levels than what Samsung/Micron etc charge between 8GB and 16GB.

 

We could have 16GB in "everything" however the memory makers need to know to supply at that sort of minimum system specification level and additionally actually have enough wafer capacity to do it. If we just globally doubled the ram in every system from now on then memory chip/package supply would half, is that viable?

 

I would argue the major factor in system minimum specifications for things like ram is manufacturing not end user requirements.

[Ydfhlx]

With ram being so cheap nowadays I see no reason to sell high-tier laptop with less than 16GB. I criticised Apple for shipping macbook pro with 8GB so props to Intel for requireing 16GB.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, Ydfhlx said:

With ram being so cheap nowadays I see no reason to sell high-tier laptop with less than 16GB. I criticised Apple for shipping macbook pro with 8GB so props to Intel for requireing 16GB.

 

 

[Ydfhlx]

14 hours ago, leadeater said:

 

 

Well, apple managed to disappoint me.

[Kisai]

On 12/17/2023 at 12:01 AM, Alex Atkin UK said:

I'd argue it should be 32GB, but overall its fair to say 16GB dual-channel is a bare minimum.

I'd argue that shipping anything with only a single channel is a PC crime. Yet that's frequently what you see in Dell's. Even Asus.

 

On 12/17/2023 at 2:44 PM, Ydfhlx said:

With ram being so cheap nowadays I see no reason to sell high-tier laptop with less than 16GB. I criticised Apple for shipping macbook pro with 8GB so props to Intel for requireing 16GB.

If they're going to solder the RAM, then it should be twice that which is recommended. If they're going to allow the user to field upgrade, then 16GB is fine, and a user can install 32, 64, 96, 128, 192, or 256 by themselves. The problem in laptop form factors is that you often only have 1 slot per channel, so you can only put one or two sticks in most, and the laptops that used to have 4 slots you have to insert two on the back, and then take apart the keyboard-side of the laptop to insert two more on that side. There's just not enough space.

 

Hence better to have a higher bar.

 

I'm also thinking this is to make Intel parts look better than Apple entry level parts.

[Alex Atkin UK]

5 hours ago, Kisai said:

I'd argue that shipping anything with only a single channel is a PC crime. Yet that's frequently what you see in Dell's. Even Asus.

Well that is kinda the topic that they ARE making it mandatory.  Although technically a single stick of DDR5 is dual-channel (just not in the same way), so maybe its a cop-out and ends up being more of the same?

[porina]

9 hours ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

Well that is kinda the topic that they ARE making it mandatory.  Although technically a single stick of DDR5 is dual-channel (just not in the same way), so maybe its a cop-out and ends up being more of the same?

It is only mandatory if you want to use the Arc Graphics sticker, but otherwise it isn't. Given Meteor Lake is mostly a higher end offering it seems unlikely for any company to not do it, but the option is there.

 

On the DDR5 module being dual channel, it is 2x32-bit channels, compared to DDR4 (and earlier?) being 1x64-bit channel. So peak transfers per clock remains same per module. It seems the whole industry has decided to refer to one DDR5 module as if it were a single channel, consistent with DDR4.

[bcredeur97]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:41 PM, starsmine said:

.... Steam deck is just a laptop without a keyboard. 
Do I need to explain why what you said is wild?

Its a linux PC, and you can install windows on it to, and dock it with a keyboard. its a portable all in one. 

My 12GB ram laptop with zen 3 hits pagefile DAILY. Its not even like Im running ram heavy tasks other then chrome on it

-snip-

16GB is the minimum today for new laptops, and in 2H 2024, if a new laptop is being sold with under 24GB, honestly, its taking the piss. I dont mean super expensive laptops, New ones except for zen 3 all use DDR5. The zen 2 laptops 8020 series uses DDR5. AKA 12GB per 64bit channel is reasonable and cheap. 

I've noticed Windows seems to start paging around 80%, so I tend to recommend RAM upgrades to anyone going over 80%

[thevictor390]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:16 PM, Techstorm970 said:

So we're comparing gaming consoles to laptops now???

 

Do I need to explain why this is a bad comparison?

Historically gaming consoles have had less or similar memory than contemporary PCs, especially high-trim ones (remember we are talking about "Ultra" badges)