EU Warns Apple About Limiting Speeds of Uncertified USB-C Cables for iPhones

[darknessblade]

Summary

EU warns apple Not to limit data-transfer speeds for NON-MFI certified cables/chargers

 

Quotes

Quote

It was rumored in February that Apple may be planning to limit charging speeds and other functionality of USB-C cables that are not certified under its "Made for iPhone" program. Like the Lightning port on existing iPhones, a small chip inside the USB-C port on iPhone 15 models would confirm the authenticity of the USB-C cable connected.

"I believe Apple will optimize the fast charging performance of MFi-certified chargers for the iPhone 15," Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo said in March.

In response to this rumor, European Commissioner Thierry Breton has sent Apple a letter warning the company that limiting the functionality of USB-C cables would not be permitted and would prevent iPhones from being sold in the EU when the law goes into effect, according to German newspaper Die Zeit. The letter was obtained by German press agency DPA, and the report says the EU also warned Apple during a meeting in mid-March.

 

My thoughts

Even if it is a rumor that apple was planning this, it is nothing but good news, that the EU is taking preventative measures against apple.

 

Why would Apple even think its OK to limit data speeds to a ridiculously slow speed, on "non-apple-certified" cables. since a cable is a cable.

What is apple's state of mind when they even came up with such a rumored idea anyway?

 

do they really think their 100$ usb 3.0 Type A to Type C cable is better than any other: usb 3.2 type C to type C cable, that can handle up to 20gb/s which cost 1/5th the price of their overpriced cable?

 

What does the MFI chip even add to value to a cable, or even the USB standard?

 

Sources

https://www.zeit.de/digital/mobil/2023-05/eu-kommission-apple-ladekabel-einschraenkungen-warnung?

https://www.macrumors.com/2023/05/04/eu-warns-apple-about-limiting-usb-c-iphone-cables/

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by darknessblade
added topic of apple "complying" to usb-C regulations

[Blqckqut]

its just apple being apple, their logic is about as bad as a stop motion disney-marvel crossover with constant corny jokes

[WolframaticAlpha]

Spoiler

inb4 "their platform their rules" and "<insert random anecdote> so apple's rule is good since most consumers <insert random conjecture about consumer habits>. <Insert some random bullshit about other platforms> so my precious company is correct."

 

 

EUs digital policies are really a model that needs to be emulated by other countries. I was irritated by what apple was going to probably pull off. I am happy to see them nip this in the buds. And this basically prevents other dumb companies from polluting the open standard with their dumb implementations(I still haven't forgiven oppo for their dumb vooc implementation on micro usb cables). Now only if the USB-IF gets their stuff in order and we might actually finally be able to get "One port to rule them all"

[porina]

13 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

What does the MFI chip even add to value to a cable, or even the USB standard?

Before USB-C it at least means Apple had some oversight into the Lightening connector used in the cable. Not so sure what value they add unless they have requirements over and on top of USB spec. If implemented, throttling non-MFI USB cables would have been a rather negative way of increasing relative value of MFI cables.

[AlTech]

@darknessblade In theory with MFI (both the chip, and the programme) Apple weeds out the manufacturers making bad cables and accessories and promotes manufacturers making safe cables and accessories.

 

In practice Apple also charge insane amounts of money for it.

 

There's a reason why Lightning cables are priced the way they are.

 

If this went unchallenged I could see a future with "Premium MFI certified" USB-C cables for the same price as the current lightning cables, if not higher. It would also punish customers as a way to indirectly retaliate against the EU.

[darknessblade]

20 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

@darknessblade In theory with MFI (both the chip, and the programme) Apple weeds out the manufacturers making bad cables and accessories and promotes manufacturers making safe cables and accessories.

 

In practice Apple also charge insane amounts of money for it.

 

There's a reason why Lightning cables are priced the way they are.

 

If this went unchallenged I could see a future with "Premium MFI certified" USB-C cables for the same price as the current lightning cables, if not higher. It would also punish customers as a way to indirectly retaliate against the EU.

Soo in other words the only value it adds is to apple's wallet....

 

Yes bad cables exist, but forcing users to use a MFI cable to use higher than {usb 2.0} data-transfer should not be part of it.

as most of the bad cables cause charging issues, not data-transfer issues.

 

 

[Doobeedoo]

Actual preventive measures.

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, darknessblade said:

 

 

My thoughts

Even if it is a rumor that apple was planning this, it is nothing but good news, that the EU is taking preventative measures against apple.

Eh, it's a nothingburger.

 

3 hours ago, darknessblade said:

Why would Apple even think its OK to limit data speeds to a ridiculously slow speed, on "non-apple-certified" cables. since a cable is a cable.

Cause that's what happens when you plug Lightning cables in, even aftermarket ones. They run at USB 2.0 speeds even if they're USB-C

 

3 hours ago, darknessblade said:

What is apple's state of mind when they even came up with such a rumored idea anyway?

 

do they really think their 100$ usb 3.0 Type A to Type C cable is better than any other: usb 3.2 type C to type C cable, that can handle up to 20gb/s which cost 1/5th the price of their overpriced cable?

 

What does the MFI chip even add to value to a cable, or even the USB standard?

 

It's mostly about preventing counterfeit cables and damage to devices, as we should have all learned with the counterfeit Apple chargers that were sold on eBay and such.

 

House fires caused by mobile phone chargers? pretty much guaranteed to be a counterfeit. Not every counterfeit charger is legitimately garbage quality, but usually they lack the safety testing and features that would let them pass the safety testing.

 

MFI just kind up adds another layer on top of that, so that if the iphone was plugged into a counterfeit device missing whatever MFI logic it looks for, then it would just drop it down to what would be safe current draws. 

 

There is a line that is in the sand where customer responsibility takes precedence over corporate liability. If a customer buys a counterfeit cable and it sets their million dollar house on fire, the company is not going to be liable for it. But if that cable and charger is completely destroyed there is not going to be enough left to identify it, let alone probe the phone to find out what it connected to.

 

The only way you get out of paying the MFI tax is by having the government seize shipments of everything at the behest of Apple. Wasting tax payer money on what should really be Apple's responsibility.

 

Is saving a few dollars to buy a counterfeit cable on Amazon worth burning your million dollar house down? No. Don't be an idiot and just buy Apple's authentic cables and chargers. 

 

So it only makes sense to cripple the cables or charging rate if it can't find the MFI chip or whatever logic in the apple charger to guarantee it's an Apple device. But it doesn't need to. There are ways of detecting the impedance in the cable, and just popping a message up saying a cable is damaged and can not be charged with this cable if it detects a problem. 

 

[jagdtigger]

34 minutes ago, Kisai said:

counterfeit Apple chargers that were sold on eBay and such.

TBH it was the charging chip (tristar), its just a snowflake that gets murdered by chargers other pho es use wirhout issues....

[Kisai]

5 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

TBH it was the charging chip (tristar), its just a snowflake that gets murdered by chargers other pho es use wirhout issues....

Which apple probably could have just over-engineered and that problem would have not ever been a thing.

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

It's mostly about preventing counterfeit cables and damage to devices, as we should have all learned with the counterfeit Apple chargers that were sold on eBay and such.

 

House fires caused by mobile phone chargers? pretty much guaranteed to be a counterfeit. Not every counterfeit charger is legitimately garbage quality, but usually they lack the safety testing and features that would let them pass the safety testing.

This.

 

Unfortunately there's shady substandard crap on the market that's really unsafe. And with the advent of improved battery technologies that will allow for quick charge boosting, you'll need to ensure the cable is robust enough throughout its life to handle momentary high current loads.

[Commodus]

I appreciate the EU doing this, and I don't like the thought of Apple trying to recreate the Lightning revenue stream by requiring certified cables for full performance.

 

At the same time, I don't like that some folks are both taking the rumour as absolute fact and treating Apple like some Snidely Whiplash-style villain. We won't know how Apple handles USB-C iPhones until the iPhone 15 line arrives, and if anything we have evidence that Apple won't be so restrictive (see how most modern iPads have high-speed USB-C). I'm not ruling out some MFi chicanery, but I don't want to presume Apple will do it or that it's some horrific monster if it does. It's a company. It's out to make money. And if the EU clamps down after the fact, I'm fine with it.

[Alex Atkin UK]

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

Which apple probably could have just over-engineered and that problem would have not ever been a thing.

But Apple want to use garbage made specifically for their devices alone so if that chip dies you have to pay a stupid price for a whole new mainboard, no ability for third-party repair to fix it.

There were reports of the M1 Macs dying using Apples own charger, if using USB-C rather than the Magsafe connector.  How screwed up do you have to make the charging controller to do that?

[wanderingfool2]

2 hours ago, Commodus said:

At the same time, I don't like that some folks are both taking the rumour as absolute fact and treating Apple like some Snidely Whiplash-style villain. We won't know how Apple handles USB-C iPhones until the iPhone 15 line arrives, and if anything we have evidence that Apple won't be so restrictive (see how most modern iPads have high-speed USB-C). I'm not ruling out some MFi chicanery, but I don't want to presume Apple will do it or that it's some horrific monster if it does. It's a company. It's out to make money. And if the EU clamps down after the fact, I'm fine with it.

While admittedly it is a rumor, the rumor itself has popped up from a few places now (from manufacturers, and others that have been accurate about leaks posted in the past).  While I personally wouldn't go as far as accusing Apple of it, it does fit Apple MO and countries need to take it seriously before Apple can get a foothold.

 

With that said, iirc the legislation only talks about the use of the USB-C connector and USB-PD protocol...there really isn't anything that says you have to use the PD protocol to achieve full power...just that it needs to be implemented.  It will be interesting to see if Apple releases it and just uses the definitions laid out in the law to circumvent it.

[Brooksie359]

9 hours ago, Kisai said:

Eh, it's a nothingburger.

 

Cause that's what happens when you plug Lightning cables in, even aftermarket ones. They run at USB 2.0 speeds even if they're USB-C

 

It's mostly about preventing counterfeit cables and damage to devices, as we should have all learned with the counterfeit Apple chargers that were sold on eBay and such.

 

House fires caused by mobile phone chargers? pretty much guaranteed to be a counterfeit. Not every counterfeit charger is legitimately garbage quality, but usually they lack the safety testing and features that would let them pass the safety testing.

 

MFI just kind up adds another layer on top of that, so that if the iphone was plugged into a counterfeit device missing whatever MFI logic it looks for, then it would just drop it down to what would be safe current draws. 

 

There is a line that is in the sand where customer responsibility takes precedence over corporate liability. If a customer buys a counterfeit cable and it sets their million dollar house on fire, the company is not going to be liable for it. But if that cable and charger is completely destroyed there is not going to be enough left to identify it, let alone probe the phone to find out what it connected to.

 

The only way you get out of paying the MFI tax is by having the government seize shipments of everything at the behest of Apple. Wasting tax payer money on what should really be Apple's responsibility.

 

Is saving a few dollars to buy a counterfeit cable on Amazon worth burning your million dollar house down? No. Don't be an idiot and just buy Apple's authentic cables and chargers. 

 

So it only makes sense to cripple the cables or charging rate if it can't find the MFI chip or whatever logic in the apple charger to guarantee it's an Apple device. But it doesn't need to. There are ways of detecting the impedance in the cable, and just popping a message up saying a cable is damaged and can not be charged with this cable if it detects a problem. 

 

Yeah I had thought this was an issue with fast charge already. If you use fast charge on a cable that can't handle it you get a fire hazard. Also its not like normal charging is super slow its just not super fast either. 

[HenrySalayne]

15 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

With that said, iirc the legislation only talks about the use of the USB-C connector and USB-PD protocol...there really isn't anything that says you have to use the PD protocol to achieve full power...just that it needs to be implemented.  It will be interesting to see if Apple releases it and just uses the definitions laid out in the law to circumvent it.

 

10 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Yeah I had thought this was an issue with fast charge already. If you use fast charge on a cable that can't handle it you get a fire hazard. Also its not like normal charging is super slow its just not super fast either. 

Even 5 W can be a fire hazard. USB PD requires the cable reporting it's capabilities and it has been working fine for years, but some companies just have to sell you a solution for an imaginary problem.

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

Even 5 W can be a fire hazard. USB PD requires the cable reporting it's capabilities and it has been working fine for years, but some companies just have to sell you a solution for an imaginary problem.

The unfortunately most USB-C cables lie about the spec they support.  Linus even mentioned this recently with respect to why they will not be doing branded USB-C cables. Making a cable that complies to the letter of the USB-C spec is extremely expensive, I would not be surprised if apple could use this as a defence. It would be easy to sample 100s of cables from the EU retail stores and show to a court that they cant trust the cables reporting as the spec is not being enforced and thus apple will claim they are required to only trust cables from a pre-approved list of vendors.  

[darknessblade]

2 hours ago, hishnash said:

The unfortunately most USB-C cables lie about the spec they support.  Linus even mentioned this recently with respect to why they will not be doing branded USB-C cables. Making a cable that complies to the letter of the USB-C spec is extremely expensive, I would not be surprised if apple could use this as a defence. It would be easy to sample 100s of cables from the EU retail stores and show to a court that they cant trust the cables reporting as the spec is not being enforced and thus apple will claim they are required to only trust cables from a pre-approved list of vendors.  

If they are going that route, I do not think a test with 100 "cherrypicked" cables will be enough for the EU to allow apple to continue its MFI scam.

 

If they want to go this route they need to do at least 10000 cables from ALL over the EU/the world, in various price-points, from the cheap dollar-store cables. to the expensive branded luxury cables [like that 1000$ 3ft HDMI cable].

 

With the test done with 10 cables from each type originating from multiple batches, so you avoid the error margin that comes from having a bad batch.

 

meaning they have to test over 100000 cables.

 

And since a In-house test will not be accepted, apple would have to hire at least 2-3 by the EU chosen companies at their own expense, that tests the cables. so apple has to test a total of at least 200K-300K cables.

 

Only after this extensive test shows that the MFI program and there-for the apple MFI cables are better as apple claims, can apple give the EU a good reason why they should be exempt of a law that protects consumers, and not apples bottom-line.

 

Not forgetting the EU of course wants ALL data to be 100% public, so apple cannot hide behind some "privacy/NDA" 

 clause that apple will use as a excuse not to make any data from the tests public information.

[HenrySalayne]

3 hours ago, hishnash said:

The unfortunately most USB-C cables lie about the spec they support.  Linus even mentioned this recently with respect to why they will not be doing branded USB-C cables. Making a cable that complies to the letter of the USB-C spec is extremely expensive, I would not be surprised if apple could use this as a defence. It would be easy to sample 100s of cables from the EU retail stores and show to a court that they cant trust the cables reporting as the spec is not being enforced and thus apple will claim they are required to only trust cables from a pre-approved list of vendors.  

53 minutes ago, darknessblade said:

If they are going that route, I do not think a test with 100 "cherrypicked" cables will be enough for the EU to allow apple to continue its MFI scam.

 

If they want to go this route they need to do at least 10000 cables from ALL over the EU/the world, in various price-points, from the cheap dollar-store cables. to the expensive branded luxury cables [like that 1000$ 3ft HDMI cable].

 

With the test done with 10 cables from each type originating from multiple batches, so you avoid the error margin that comes from having a bad batch.

 

meaning they have to test over 100000 cables.

 

And since a In-house test will not be accepted, apple would have to hire at least 2-3 by the EU chosen companies at their own expense, that tests the cables. so apple has to test a total of at least 200K-300K cables.

 

Only after this extensive test shows that the MFI program and there-for the apple MFI cables are better as apple claims, can apple give the EU a good reason why they should be exempt of a law that protects consumers, and not apples bottom-line.

 

Not forgetting the EU of course wants ALL data to be 100% public, so apple cannot hide behind some "privacy/NDA" 

 clause that apple will use as a excuse not to make any data from the tests public information.

Why would you two think a company could overrule EU regulation by showing an example of a sub-standard product? That's not how the EU works, that's not how any of this works.

The argument is just laughable. Apple can certify as many cables as they wish. They can sell only certified cables in their online store if they wish. They are not allowed to lock down a device to only accept certified cables. We don't need an discussion about the imaginary "what if"s of alternative realities.

[wanderingfool2]

@HenrySalayne

"irrespective of charging device used"...but a cable isn't the charging device   At least that's how I would argue it if I were Apple.  If you use a charger but switch the cable it's still a charging device that would work. [Not that I agree with reasoning like this, but I think it would be a valid argument for Apple]

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, HomicidalPingu said:

he whole reason why MFi came about

Greed was the reason. Maybe USB cables can vary in quality but the worst thing that can happen is it wont work. But thos cables are the ones which are priced in the "too good to be true" range.....

[jagdtigger]

8 minutes ago, HomicidalPingu said:

You know apple doesn’t really make anything from MFi? They likely lose money from it. 

AFAIK apple charges an arm and a leg for it so thats doubtful
 

 

10 minutes ago, HomicidalPingu said:

The worst thing that can happen is a fire. 

The charging circuit in the phone would cut out sooner (if designed correctly) because of under voltage before that could happen.

[tikker]

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

@HenrySalayne

"irrespective of charging device used"...but a cable isn't the charging device   At least that's how I would argue it if I were Apple.  If you use a charger but switch the cable it's still a charging device that would work. [Not that I agree with reasoning like this, but I think it would be a valid argument for Apple]

I don't think it would be a valid argument for them. If they only allow MFI certified cables to charge at full power that would go against the harmonising aspect of the mandate and, more importantly, I think that would violate "shall incorporate USB-PD", because it would imply that perfectly USB-PD compliant cables that happen to not be MFI certified wouldn't fully work. If only MFI cables would charge at full power, they would actively not be allowing full USB-PD functionality, which implies full power to me, and thus violate the quoted point 3.2.

 

2 hours ago, HomicidalPingu said:

People should be criticising this but aren’t because it’s apple. The EU is now mandating manufacturers use a specific port for devices and dictating what protocols they’re allowed to use.

I think that is a tad misrepresentative. They are setting a standard for charging. You are free to put all the ports and protocols that you like on your device, as long as you at least provide this one standard charging port and protocol. People have criticised this mandate plenty as well. It's not even the first time this was considered. A long time ago micro USB was investigated to fullfill this purpose, but it was deemed too early/immature a technology to start forcing it.

 

Looking at the market now and what ports devices come with: Apple has Lightning and USB-C and the rest pretty much have all adopted USB-C in my experience, bar niche/specialised devices. Apple was even (one of) the first to jump on the USB-C train with their laptops, but for whatever reason they are desperately trying to keep Lightning around despite seeming so eager at first. You can debate about the physical connector, but in terms of its current capabilities I think Lightning is now simply inferior and has little reason to stick around. Least of all charging.

2 hours ago, HomicidalPingu said:

If they’re really doing this they should make it so every device has to use Thunderbolt 3 as the standard is actually a standard rather than a rough guideline.

It's slowly moving that way (not in mandate form, but in terms of functionality) with USB4 being based on Thunderbolt.

2 hours ago, HomicidalPingu said:

This is also purely to hamper companies from outside the EU so those in the EU can maybe catch up. 

What is the EU catching up on? Calling the big boys out on their shenanigans?

[HenrySalayne]

13 minutes ago, tikker said:

Apple was even (one of) the first to jump on the USB-C train with their laptops, but for whatever reason they are desperately trying to keep Lightning around despite seeming so eager at first.

It keeps customers locked into the ecosystem. Simple as that.

 

3 hours ago, HomicidalPingu said:

hey should make it so every device has to use Thunderbolt 3

And which connector does Thunderbolt 3 use again? And how does Thunderbolt 3 supplies power to a device?

Your entire post is just factually wrong. Nothing you said makes sense. Please inform yourself about

- what the EU regulation actually mandates

- what USB actually is

- what Thunderbolt actually is and why it would be the most stupid thing to mandate it on a phone

- how this would hamper companies outside the EU

3 hours ago, HomicidalPingu said:

People should be criticising this but aren’t because it’s apple. The EU is now mandating manufacturers use a specific port for devices and dictating what protocols they’re allowed to use. They’re also using USB which is the flakiest standard on earth and the whole reason why MFi came about was because USB doesn’t have any form of QA. If they’re really doing this they should make it so every device has to use Thunderbolt 3 as the standard is actually a standard rather than a rough guideline. This is also purely to hamper companies from outside the EU so those in the EU can maybe catch up. 

 

[TetraSky]

"But, low quality cable from the dollarstore may (somehow) damage your precious iPhone if allowed to charge it at full power! You wouldn't want that, do you?!"