R.I.P. Bitcoin - $19,158.35 and falling fast

[Heliian]

2 hours ago, Neroon said:

Drop, trading sideways, drop, trading sideways, drop and we will see what's next.

I fear there are too many embarrassed idiots out there with enough money to keep it afloat for some time.  The présidente of El Salvador will lose his head if it gets any worse. 

[wasab]

On 6/21/2022 at 4:26 PM, Avocado Diaboli said:

Do you know what "going to the moon" even means for cryptocurrencies? Rapid deflation of the "currency". Which any economist will tell you is just as bad as hyperinflation

Except bitcoin is not exactly used by bussiness as means to do transactions, as a medium of exchange, or as legal tenders to settle debt, private or public. Deflation is only bad in the sense that bussiness are earning less thus unable to pay back their debts and costs; labor, materials, or otherwise which are none issue. i dont think your employers are writting you checks for bitcoins instead of USD or any other fiat currencies are they? 

 

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And since you admittedly bought in at the peak, you are one of the biggest fools of them all, since you fell for the propaganda hard. The only thing left to you now is basically the five stages of grief.

you just buy in early and if you are smart, you buy the dip, not the all time highs. People always say bitcoins are worthless when in fact they do have utlitlies. compare that to alternative investment like pokemon trading cards, what utilities do you think these have except to boaster the ego of collectors? What market principles do you think are driving up these values besides scarcity? you change to fiat currency, it is still the same. The only real value of goverment issues currency is scaricity and the fact it has utility. With todays digital economy, much of the fiat are not even physical and just pure digital data no more different than cryptos. Your banks are in fact creating money out of thin air each time they pratice fractional reserve banking. Most money in circulation are in fact not issued by the central bank or the treasury, but rather completely created out of thin air whenever you do things like taking out a mortage from a bank. 

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I can't understand this insistence of comparing cryptocurrencies with stocks, real estate or cars. If your investment in any of those latter examples fails, you still have something tangible like an actual house or a car at the end of it. Even with a stocks, you still have a company with assets that can be liquidated to recoup some of the loss. Cryptocurrencies don't have that, they will never have that.

yes, you recoup that in the form of legal ternders in the form of fiat currencies when you decalred bankrupcies and your assets are actuions off to repay creditors or vice versa when you invest in these and their assets are auction of to repay you. what market principles do you think are so different between these and that of bitcoins other than the fact you are legally forced to settle them when tended with the former in a bankruptcy court? 

[Avocado Diaboli]

6 minutes ago, wasab said:

Except bitcoin is not exactly used by bussiness as means to do transactions, as a medium of exchange, or as legal tenders to settle debt, private or public. Deflation is only bad in the sense that bussiness are earning less thus unable to pay back their debts and costs; labor, materials, or otherwise which are none issue. i dont think your employers are writting you checks for bitcoins instead of USD are they? 

Deflation is bad because it means it will be out of reach of most investors which gives it a hard value threshold it can't break through. Especially with Bitcoin, it being one of the cryptocurrencies that have a hard market cap on how many Bitcoin can eventually exist. After that, no actual value - tenuous as the application of that word to cryptocurrencies already is - can be generated. So the only thing left is to sell to people dumber than you in the hopes they'll think they can grow their investment somehow (emphasis because that "somehow" is nebulous at best). So now, "going to the moon" is only worthwhile to people who entered the fool's game early. Just like an MLM or any other pyramid scheme.

 

10 minutes ago, wasab said:

you just buy in early and if you are smart, you buy the dip, not the all time highs. People always say bitcoins are worthless when in fact they do have utlitlies. compare that to alternative investment like pokemon trading cards, what ulities do you think these have except to boaster the ego of collectors? What market principles do you think are driving up these values besides scarcity? you change to fiat currency, it is still the same. The only real value of goverment issues currency is scaricity and the fact it has utility. With todays digital economy, much of the fiat are not even physical and just pure digital data no more different than cryptos.  

You just pointed out why Bitcoin isn't used for anything tangible and simultaneously claim that Bitcoin have utilities. If you invest in Pokemon cards, you still have those Pokemon cards at the end of the day and if you care about that you can play the game they're intended to be a part of. Not so with Bitcoin. How ever you slice it, you can pretend everything is a market. But if it's purely a virtual good being sold, then it's inherently worthless since you can't exchange it for anything real. Because nobody in their right mind would accept Pokemon cards as exchange of value. So it's a false equivalence at best. Crytopcurrency only has value if you want to buy illegal goods. That's what actual money is for in absence of a barter system.

[wasab]

22 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Deflation is bad because it means it will be out of reach of most investors

You do know bitcoins can be denominated in factions of a coin right? You can buy a piece of bitcoin for $1. 

 

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. Especially with Bitcoin, it being one of the cryptocurrencies that have a hard market cap on how many Bitcoin can eventually exist.

Yes, it is part of the alogrithm. Demand goes up and supply remain stable thus prices increase. How is that different than a first edition pokemon cards many collectors buy and people hold as investment? Or Mona Lisa paintings? 

 

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After that, no actual value - tenuous as the application of that word to cryptocurrencies already is - can be generated.

It generates value in the sense that it facilities certain types of financial and economic activities and can be used as a means to barter/transacts without suffereing from infaltionary erosion of the stored value/wealth you have accumulated so far unlike fiat currrencies in a bank checking account. Cryptos can be loan out and borrowed. This is not unlike how banks create money out of thin air so you can pay for your car and mortgage(reread my edited post above). Its adoption is not widespread but substantial enough in many sectors. 

 

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So the only thing left is to sell to people dumber than you in the hopes they'll think they can grow their investment somehow (emphasis because that "somehow" is nebulous at best). So now, "going to the moon" is only worthwhile to people who entered the fool's game early. Just like an MLM or any other pyramid scheme.

that is because it has usefullness and sacarcity thus always be a demand while supply remaining the same. This means value will never drop to zero. Pyramid scheme is only pyradmid in the sense there are no people who would buy in other than the reason they are chasing after payout at a higher price it promises in the future, selling it to a bigger fool in your own word. there are people out there who wants to own bitcoins other than the fact they can sell them to a bigger fool. it is not unlike how multilevel marketing does not pass as pyramid scheme, they have actual products and people would give up something in exchange for these products for a reason that is more than to sell it to a bigger fool for profits. 

 

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. But if it's purely a virtual good being sold, then it's inherently worthless since you can't exchange it for anything real. Because nobody in their right mind would accept Pokemon cards as exchange of value. So it's a false equivalence at best. Crytopcurrency only has value if you want to buy illegal goods. That's what actual money is for in absence of a barter system.

Dude, checkout fractional reserve banking. my sense so far is that you think bitcoins have no value because you cant see or touch it. this is what it all boils down to. you should see how much of the fiat currency back by goverment are unseen and untouchable and completely created out of thin air. 

[Kid.Lazer]

38 minutes ago, wasab said:

[...]you should see how much of the fiat currency back by goverment are unseen and untouchable and completely created out of thin air. 

Yes, and that is going so well in that space too...

 

/s

[wasab]

1 minute ago, Kid.Lazer said:

Yes, and that is going so well in that space too...

You would hope so. god forbid if it doesnt. In theory we can keep borrowing forever into the future because future is forever long. Creating none existent money to pay for things at the moment and keep on passing the actual cost into the future is unsettling even in the best of circumstances. 

 

 

[Blademaster91]

3 minutes ago, wasab said:

Creating none existent money to pay for things at the moment and keep on passing the actual cost into the future is unsettling even in the best of circumstances. 

Creating money from nothing isn't anything new, but i'm not sure how I am supposed to trust bitcoin more when it's only as valuable as how much trust people put into it, and with most crypto coins, a scam of getting people to speculate high value until it gets over inflated and completely drops in value.

[wasab]

4 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Creating money from nothing isn't anything new, but i'm not sure how I am supposed to trust bitcoin more when it's only as valuable as how much trust people put into it, and with most crypto coins, a scam of getting people to speculate high value until it gets over inflated and completely drops in value.

well, avoid buying when it is at a bubble and hold for long term. It applies to everything, real estate, stocks ect. if you look at 5 years period, bitcoin is up, by like a LOT, even after the recent crash. I learned my lesson. That said, i wont sell. that is realizing my losses and besides, these are the money i can easily go without. Dont ever put your eggs into one basket and never more than 2% of your assets in risky investments like cryptos. You want a tiny bit exposure so you wouldnt miss out should they truely become mainstream but only so little so you wouldnt even think twice if you lose it all. risk vs reward. I will check my cropto wallet again in 40 years or so when i am prepare to retire. 

[Avocado Diaboli]

59 minutes ago, wasab said:

You do know bitcoins can be denominated in factions of a coin right? You can buy a piece of bitcoin for $1. 

And? $1 is still $1 regardless of how many Bitcoin or fractions thereof you can buy. This is a non-argument. What's the point of buying a fraction of a Bitcoin once the maximum value threshold is reached? There isn't one. And since again, Bitcoin can't actually buy anything, it's not a representation of value. It's telling that you bring up things like Pokemon cards, which are only valuable to collectors who set the price for a thing and generate a market (mostly on accident) by convincing investors to speculate with them. The cards themselves have the value of the paper they're printed on and nothing more. It's the illusion of value. And that should be a pretty big hint as to why cryptocurrencies are inherently silly. You only keep peddling these ideas because you're one of the marks that got suckered in and think you'll eventually make a return on your investment, as evidenced by this statement:

16 minutes ago, wasab said:

I will check my cropto wallet again in 40 years or so when i am prepare to retire. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, wasab said:

Yes, it is part of the alogrithm. Demand goes up and supply remain stable thus prices increase. How is that different than a first edition pokemon cards many collectors buy and people hold as investment? Or Mona Lisa paintings? 

Because again, at the end of the day you still hold the thing itself, something tangible that can be owned. Owning a million Bitcoin if they're worthless does not grant you anything. That's the pertinent difference. You keep bringing up strictly scarce things but then ignore the fact that their strict scarcity is thanks to actual scarcity, not artificial scarcity that means literally nothing. Demand is only high for as long as people believe that it actually represents any value at all. That's why shills like you keep pretending that does. It's circular reasoning and eventually people will get wise to it. You know how I know? Jeez, let's just look at the current drop in value. Your word on this is not convincing, it can never be convincing, because you are personally invested in Bitcoin becoming profitable for you. You are not arguing from a position of a neutral observer.

 

59 minutes ago, wasab said:

Dude, checkout fractional reserve banking. my sense so far is that you think bitcoins have no value because you cant see or touch it. this is what it all boils down to. you should see how much of the fiat currency back by goverment are unseen and untouchable and completely created out of thin air. 

You act as if I'm in favor of fractional reserve banking. Sorry, don't assume I'm on board with the current banking system just because I'm not hyped about the proclaimed replacement. Besides, wasn't the entire ethos of Bitcoin "Banks bad, centralized bad"? Why emulate that? Unless of course it's a transparent attempt to have a blank slate, a second version of our real economy, where a new group of first investors get to profit from the pyramid scheme and therefore form a modern day aristocracy. Crypto is a worse version of what we currently have. 

[tikker]

I think crypto is like a cold shower for people when it comes to risk. The stock market and the likes are normal and integrated, so we don't think, like really think, that deeply about risks of losing money because "backed by physical assets" or "a company is behind it". Yes, those cushion a fall, but you can still land hard. People have to accept that something can have value simply because people attribute value to it (which happens in other areas). These crypto crashes show you the extremes of what can happen when you invest by taking away that safety net, in the form of a risky highly speculative asset. It being unregulated amplifies that further.

9 minutes ago, wasab said:

well, avoid buying when it is at a bubble and hold for long term. It applies to everything, real estate, stocks ect. if you look at 5 years period, bitcoin is up, by like a LOT, even after the recent crash. I learned my lesson. That said, i wont sell. that is realizing my losses and besides, these are the money i can easily go without. Dont ever put your eggs into one basket and never more than 2% of your assets in risky investments like cryptos. You want a tiny bit exposure so you wouldnt miss out should they truely become mainstream but only so little so you wouldnt even think twice if you lose it all. risk vs reward. I will check my cropto wallet again in 40 years or so when i am prepare to retire. 

Indeed. It's a very much a gamble and I think it's mainly just the risk that people don't like. If this was an, I don't know, 10% loss at best kind of thing people wouldn't bat an eye no matter how useless or intrinsically worthless it was. I'm in the same holding boat and I'll see where it goes. Simply fingers crossed for a nice extra in a decade or so, but no illusions about guaranteed set for life or stuf like that.

[wasab]

9 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

And? $1 is still $1 regardless of how many Bitcoin or fractions thereof you can buy. This is a non-argument. What's the point of buying a fraction of a Bitcoin once the maximum value threshold is reached?

jesus, man, you are really confuse what value actually means. Value is define by how much the HIGHEST bidder is willing to pay for something at a certain time. As long as there is a person willing to give up something in exchange for said thing, that thing has value. 

 

Conversly, you can have diamonds and gold and loads of american dollars and if no one are willing to exchange any of their possions or provide services for you in exchange, then these have ZERO value, regardless how much value you think it has. Lets use the house you metnioned prior. If you can not find a buyer today for your house, for all intents and purposes, your house is value at $0 as of today. if tomorrow, you find a buyer who are willing to buy for $100k, for all intents and purposes, your house is now $100k tomorrow and value $100k for these two days. If that buyer rescinded his offer without another offer/buyer, your house is once again value at $0 as of the next day. Stock market, crypto, all functioned the same. These two's value is defined as the last highest price that is being trransacted per coin/share at any given time. 

 

Seriously, stop talking about it has no value. Even your imaginary friend can have value if people are willing to trade good and services for it. 

[Avocado Diaboli]

4 minutes ago, wasab said:

jesus, man, you are really confuse what value actually means. Value is define by how much the HIGHEST bidder is willing to pay for something at a certain time. As long as there is a person willing to give up something in exchange for said thing, that thing has value. 

 

Conversly, you can have diamonds and gold and loads of american dollars and if no one are willing to exchange any of their possions or provide services for you, then these have ZERO value, regardless how much value you think it has. Lets use the house you metnioned prior. If you can not find a buyer today for your house, for all intents and purposes, your house is value at $0 as of today. if tomorrow, you find a buyer who are willing to buy for $100k, for all intents and purposes, your house is now $100k tomorrow and value $100k for these two days. If that buyer rescinded his offer without another offer/buyer, your house is once again value at $0 as of the next day. Stock market, crypto, all functioned the same. These two's value is defined as the last highest price that is being trransacted per coin/share at any given time. 

 

Seriously, stop talking about it has no value. Even your imaginary friend can have value if people are willing to trade good and services for it. 

I'll stop talking about it once you stop pretending that a house having $0 value literally does not change the fact that at the end of the day I still have a house, a roof above my head, a space where I can live. You keep drawing false equivalencies and your desperation to prove that the worthless thing you pumped money into and that you laughably dream of reaping any reward by the time you retire shows. Besides, I don't just oppose cryptocurrencies because they are a worthless product sold to rubes thinking of it as a get rich quick scheme. I oppose it on a philosophical level, because it represents the worst aspects of capitalism in concentrated form.

[wasab]

8 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

'll stop talking about it once you stop pretending that a house having $0 value literally does not change the fact that at the end of the day I still have a house, a roof above my head, a space where I can live. You keep drawing false equivalencies and your desperation to prove that the worthless thing you pumped money into and that you laughably dream of reaping any reward by the time you retire shows. Besides, I don't just oppose cryptocurrencies because they are a worthless product sold to rubes thinking of it as a get rich quick scheme. I oppose it on a philosophical level, because it represents the worst aspects of capitalism in concentrated form.

You can keep talking about bitcoin has no value but it doesnt change the fact at the end of the day i can submit a market order to a major crypto exhcnage and get back $20k American dollars per bitcoin within a fraction of second and then use it to buy a house if i wanted to. on a philosophical level? lets not even go there. on an intelletual level, you are making MANY elementary mistakes and vastly misinformed of how monetary system and crypto works. Whats more, you are disussing this in such bad faith i dont think you would ever change your mind even if i laid out all the facts before you. 

[Avocado Diaboli]

1 minute ago, wasab said:

You can keep talking about bitcoin has no value but it doesnt change the fact at the end of the day i can submit a market order to a major crypto exhcnage and get back $20k American dollars per bitcoin within a fraction of second and then use it to buy a house if i wanted to. on a philosophical level? lets not even go there. on an intelletual level, you are making MANY elementary mistakes and vastly misinformed of how everything works. Whats more, you are disussing this in such bad faith i dont think you would ever change your mind even if i laid out all the facts before you. 

Pot, meet kettle. I guess we're done here.

[BuckGup]

I'm going to frame this comment on my wall when Bitcoin reaches $147,000 in roughly 1.5 years.

[tikker]

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

And? $1 is still $1 regardless of how many Bitcoin or fractions thereof you can buy.

$1 is also still $1 regardless much gold, silver, stocks, grass or apples or fractions thereof you can buy.

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

And since again, Bitcoin can't actually buy anything

False for years. I can buy PC parts with a variety of crypto and a food delivery service here accepts Bitcoin.

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Demand is only high for as long as people believe that it actually represents any value at all.

You're now stating yourself that value is determined by what people attribute to it. Even those companies you mention only have value because we value what they produce. Nvidia stocks aren't worth $160 simply because there's a physical company behind it. It's worth that much, because what that company produces is valued by consumers and other industries, which is reflected in their stock prices.

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

That's why shills like you keep pretending that does. It's circular reasoning and eventually people will get wise to it. You know how I know? Jeez, let's just look at the current drop in value.

This crash really isn't an "told you so". All the "told ya" people have done is guess correctly that it would go down again. Exactly the same, the buyers and holders also simply guessed correctly that it would catch on.

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Besides, wasn't the entire ethos of Bitcoin "Banks bad, centralized bad."?

It was a demonstration of creating consensus in a system of malicious actors without a central authority saying which transaction is and isn't valid. Sure people have latched on this aspect you mention, but we've now seen plenty of examples why unregulated currencies can not run the world's economy ranging from "why can't they refund me" to "what if BTC changes value after my transaction". Regulation is what makes our dollars, euros, yens etc. work. As much as people think they want total freedom and no regulation, they don't really.

[IPD]

On the bright side, Bitcoin is more viable than investing in real-estate in mainland china.  Or eating gas-station-sushi that has been left in the sun for a day and a half.

[TetraSky]

Yet another exchange "pausing" withdrawals.
https://coinflex.com/blog/coinflex-update-on-withdrawals/

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/06/23/coinflex-pauses-withdrawals-amid-extreme-market-conditions-and-counterparty-uncertainty/

 

Just great ain't it. Can anything legitimately be done if the owner of the exchange decides to close up shop and run off with all your coins?

[Arika]

20 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

Just great ain't it. Can anything legitimately be done if the owner of the exchange decides to close up shop and run off with all your coins?

[Bitter]

Don't they halt the stock exchanges sometimes? Robinhood froze their services. 

[IPD]

9 hours ago, Bitter said:

Don't they halt the stock exchanges sometimes? Robinhood froze their services. 

Artificial controls interfering with natural market trends.

 

The issue isn't should there be interference (oversight) in the free market--but rather, how do you maximize consumer choice via the free market.  Intervention is required when there isn't consumer choice--or when companies are preventing consumers from having one (i.e. "pausing" withdrawals).

[RoseLuck462]

Good time to buy in 

[Sarra]

lol Financial advice?

 

And RIP indeed, it has been very slowly pulling itself back up. Sorta. It's like it gnoshed on a revive pot, but it's taking forever to kick in at full strength.

 

I vowed to NOT convert USD into BTC, and despite the low prices, I'm sticking to that. Just mined everything I've got, which isn't much. Too hot to mine now, I'll wait until next winter.

[Bitter]

2 hours ago, Sarra said:

lol Financial advice?

 

And RIP indeed, it has been very slowly pulling itself back up. Sorta. It's like it gnoshed on a revive pot, but it's taking forever to kick in at full strength.

 

I vowed to NOT convert USD into BTC, and despite the low prices, I'm sticking to that. Just mined everything I've got, which isn't much. Too hot to mine now, I'll wait until next winter.

I'm in the same boat, seems like as soon as I buy a dip then the real dip comes.

[Action_Johnson]

I mean, if we really want to see Crypto crash, I'll just buy some. 

 

Every single stock I've ever bought has shit the bed. Worst one so far has been Rivian, I lost just about everything on that one.