(Sorry, but Not SORRY. Microsoft AMA about much wanted features) Tali Roth, Says Moving the taskbar is not worth the effort to implement

[Stahlmann]

8 hours ago, Dietrichw said:

So far the only thing that I really like in W11 is AutoHDR. Some games actually look really good, haven't had a case where it made something look worse. There are some details in system apps that have been reworked for the better but nothing worth upgrading for.

AutoHDR is pretty useless imo. It does nothing to improve the image quality over the source SDR content. Literally all it does is to enable SDR content to reach the same peak brightness your monitor does in HDR. This results in an extremely bright overall image, which is NOT what HDR is supposed to be. The overall picture shouldn't be brighter than SDR, but with the additional headroom for bright highlights.

 

There is a reason why HDR content needs a different mastering process from SDR. And this algorithm is no substitute for that.

 

7 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

auto hdr (bassically same as on xbox now)

See above.

 

7 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

better (less buggy) hdr implementation all around

It's literally exactly the same as Windows 10. I have multiple REAL HDR displays and there is absolutely no difference. The reason why many people think HDR is garbage on Windows is because most Windows users have garbage HDR displays. The reason why people think Mac manages HDR better is because Apple can control (for most of it's products) exactly what displays are used and implement these accordingly. Not to mention apple has some darn impressive HDR displays to begin with.

 

7 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

much better window managment (windows remember where they should be when monitors are plugged/unplugged, way to set a monitor snap to without a 3rd party program)

W10 has window snapping too. Unless you need the "remember when replugged" feature, this doesn't add that much.

 

7 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

WSA (really cool for some things like finally having audible on desktop)
Better settings app (more in the settings app, less need to go into control pannel)
better store implementation (more things that arent windows update through the store (ms gaming services  think is one) , should cause less windows update being disabled breaks everything)

better support for toutchscreen (bassically making toutch targets bigger, while keeping buttons the same)

Direct Storage (should come to windows 10 a bit later tho)

Those are some legit features thogh. But then we could also get into the removed features that were present on Windows 10 and the bugs still present in Windows 11. In the end most people are better off staying on Windows 10 for the forseeable future.

[LAwLz]

11 hours ago, Dietrichw said:

Microsoft has telemetry data for how many people use certain features, they are prioritizing based off of that. I am annoyed that it can't be moved. I prefer to have my taskbar on my left monitor only (bottom) while having my middle monitor be the default display where fullscreen apps open by default.

The problem is that telemetry data does not show the full story.

"only 5% of users use feature X"

"only 5% of users use feature Y"

"only 5% of users use feature Z"

 

Repeat that 20 times and you have suddenly pissed off 100% of your users, (assuming no overlap of course).

 

 

 

Anyway, isn't moving the taskbar one of the most, if not the most highly requested feature for Windows 11?

This just further confirms what I have been saying for years now. Microsoft do not give two shits about the feedback hub. They should rename it the "fuck-off hub".

 

Spoiler

Also, telling someone to submit feedback to Microsoft is basically like telling someone "shove your criticism up your ass".

The feedback hub is garbage. Not only is it a clusterfuck that is extremely hard to navigate and search in, with a ton of duplicates everywhere. Microsoft does not give two fucks about it. If your feedback is something they already planned on doing, they will do it but your feedback didn't really change any outcome.

If your feedback is something they didn't plan on doing, then they will ignore you. 

 

 

The reason why I bring this up now is because I recently came across this blog post titled "Shenanigans on Microsoft Feedback Hub". The author of that blog brings up two interesting things.

1) The voting system is either glitched, or Microsoft manipulates it. How many votes a certain feedback has can fluctuate dramatically from day to day.

2) Microsoft staff are editing comments without telling the users, and since there is no way to track your own comments (like on any decent forum) it is extremely hard to actually notice this.

 

 

------

 

 

Found this comment on Hacker News that echoes my experience and views really well:

Quote

I wonder if they’d get better replies if it didn’t seem like an effort to silo feedback into a tool they control so they can ignore it and keep negative feedback that gains traction out of the spotlight.

 

Based on my experience I call it the “Fuck-Off Hub” because that’s where they send you so you can feel like you’re submitting feedback, but they really just want you to fuck off and stop bugging them. It’s like whispering into the Grand Canyon. No one that matters is ever going to hear your feedback, so why bother?

 

 

[CTR640]

That's what happens when there is no competition. They can simply fuck you over with and you can't say anything about it.

Because of all the endless shit designs and choice Microsoft keeps pulling, no wonder why I stick to Windows 7.

I don't have any reason anyway to "upgrade" to newer OS because of some "security" nonsense. I don't browse sketchy websites, don't search for keygens and all other crap.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

29 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

W10 has window snapping too. Unless you need the "remember when replugged" feature, this doesn't add that much.

 

its completly diffrently implemented in windows 11, and much better. 

Theyres a popup (i think when mutiple windows arent maximised) when hovering over the maximise button that allows you to snap all windows to a certain layout.

29 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

t's literally exactly the same as Windows 10. I have multiple REAL HDR displays and there is absolutely no difference. The reason why many people think HDR is garbage on Windows is because most Windows users have garbage HDR displays. The reason why people think Mac manages HDR better is because Apple can control (for most of it's products) exactly what displays are used and implement these accordingly. Not to mention apple has some darn impressive HDR displays to begin with.

Um... . I dont think hdr displays have anything to do with widows 10 turning screens white....

 

31 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

AutoHDR is pretty useless imo. It does nothing to improve the image quality over the source SDR content. Literally all it does is to enable SDR content to reach the same peak brightness your monitor does in HDR. This results in an extremely bright overall image, which is NOT what HDR is supposed to be. The overall picture shouldn't be brighter than SDR, but with the additional headroom for bright highlights.

 

There is a reason why HDR content needs a different mastering process from SDR. And this algorithm is no substitute for that.

 

seems pretty popular on the xbox for their older games....

[Helpful Tech Witch]

1 minute ago, CTR640 said:

That's what happens when there is no competition. They can simply fuck you over with and you can't say anything about it.

Because of all the endless shit designs and choice Microsoft keeps pulling, no wonder why I stick to Windows 7.

I don't have any reason anyway to "upgrade" to newer OS because of some "security" nonsense. I don't browse sketchy websites, don't search for keygens and all other crap.

thats.... not how that works. Even safe browsing practices aren't always going to keep you protected. Use linux, build a hackintosh, use windows 8.1, used a modded windows 10, use something else, just get off of w7

[Mark Kaine]

46 minutes ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

just get off of w7

 

 

The only solution! 

[CTR640]

52 minutes ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

thats.... not how that works. Even safe browsing practices aren't always going to keep you protected. Use linux, build a hackintosh, use windows 8.1, used a modded windows 10, use something else, just get off of w7

No, why should I? I've been using W7 since April 2014 and so far no issues.

[Stahlmann]

2 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

its completly diffrently implemented in windows 11, and much better. 

Theyres a popup (i think when mutiple windows arent maximised) when hovering over the maximise button that allows you to snap all windows to a certain layout.

Um... . I dont think hdr displays have anything to do with widows 10 turning screens white....

Turning screens white? I haven't had that happen, even on the HDR400 displays i've seen. Mostly just raised blacks due to the monitors running their backlight at 100% when HDR is detected, bad tonemapping and wrong color saturation (Which is what i assume to be the "washed out" issue people complain about.)

Every REAL HDR display i had didn't have any issues when HDR is permanently enabled, be it on W10 or W11. In my experience it works exactly the same on W10 or 11.

 

2 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

seems pretty popular on the xbox for their older games....

Tbh i expected as much. Most people that think Auto HDR is good just don't know any better. This is not meant as an insult and these people are lucky. But to me as an enthusiast it's much worse than a native HDR game to the point where i'd rather use SDR to begin with.

[tim0901]

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Anyway, isn't moving the taskbar one of the most, if not the most highly requested feature for Windows 11?

I think this is very much an example of observer bias. Is this the most requested feature amongst the angry computer nerd audience that rants about the deficiencies of Windows 11 on the internet? Absolutely. But is that still the case amongst the entire population of Windows 11 users? I doubt it. How often do you see people actually using the option in the real world?

[Helpful Tech Witch]

3 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Turning screens white? I haven't had that happen, even on the HDR400 displays i've seen. Mostly just raised blacks due to the monitors running their backlight at 100% when HDR is detected, bad tonemapping and wrong color saturation (Which is what i assume to be the "washed out" issue people complain about.)

Every REAL HDR display i had didn't have any issues when HDR is permanently enabled, be it on W10 or W11. In my experience it works exactly the same on W10 or 11.

 

sometiems windows gets confused and just telles everything to turn white

[Mark Kaine]

18 minutes ago, tim0901 said:

I think this is very much an example of observer bias. Is this the most requested feature amongst the angry computer nerd audience that rants about the deficiencies of Windows 11 on the internet? Absolutely. But is that still the case amongst the entire population of Windows 11 users? I doubt it. How often do you see people actually using the option in the real world?

Thats the thing, only people with several monitors will use it, so prob some kind of "enthusiasts" and ms basically just told them fuck you lol…

 

Its really disappointing, somewhat embarrassing, unmotivated and not a good look at all - and they only do it because they know there is no real alternative… aka, in other words, abusing their market position, again. Sure, its probably not unlawful in this case, but I think it will overall accelerate the general perception that 11 is just "another 8" or whatever, ie, people will push back and despite their market position ms may need to rethink things and make 12 "11.1" sooner than they'd like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

[wanderingfool2]

7 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

As for the icon only, introduced done Win 7 it is widely used. In fact, I never saw, beside myself, anyone using the title next to icons since. Not in classroom, not when I worked as IT, not in the work place as a software developer. Already had discussion with people.. in their view, they don't need titles, they just hover on the icon, then hover on the preview, and it brings in large, in front of them, what they are looking for and click on it. Their arguments is that title is useless, all they nearly all show the program name. The name is so long that to the file/project loaded name is cut off many times. Also got as a response that it takes less space on it, so more is visible.

At my old place of work we had like 99% of users have full icon and only combine when space is limited.  The reason that came about is users saw that some people had it enabled, and asked for them to have it.  Eventually we decided to push it to everyone with a note if they wanted it reverted to let us know and only one user asked for it to be reverted

 

Just because a few people use a feature doesn't mean that the feature wouldn't be popular.  It's just people see it and don't realize they could have it the way it was (or rather they don't know how to re-enable it)...so the effort of figuring it out is too much.  I would be willing to bet if they had left it on the telemetry would say most users use the full.

 

7 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Microsoft priorities it's work based on telemetry data.

While I do think this is kind of the case, Microsoft has been heavily pushing touch screen for about a decade now (Metro anyone)...even though I'm willing to bet the telemetry data shows that the vast majority don't utilize touch that often.  I get that same feeling of when Windows 8 was released where it feels like it's just some corporate higher ups trying to justify what they are working on and doing projects that allow them to tick the boxes that say they have made progress/innovating.

 

 

 

 

Overall my thought is that Windows 11 should never have been released in the state it was in.  The amount of bugs in it is inexcusable, and quite frankly the timeline for Windows 11 was mind numbingly a bad idea.  The taskbar should be movable, I know a few people who utilize that option (not like a 100% daily driver kind of thing, but switch it based on what activity they are doing).  From a productivity standpoint Windows 11 has so many flaws.

[DANK_AS_gay]

18 hours ago, Marko1600 said:

Apple isn't better either, they're all just a bunch of collage MBAs focused on squeezing out the bucks. Hence the high prices.

The OS is fine as far as I can tell. It doesn't have infinite customizability, but somehow it is better than Windows 11. I like how intuitive it is to use, it is in fact so intuitive that Windows copied some of the most common gestures on MacOS lol. For example the 3 finger swipe. When coming away from my computer, I don't feel like I have had to fight it to do the things I want to do. The things that don't come with MacOS, like NTFS file systems, can be added back with plugins/extensions. Something Apple does well is user experience, as that is the only thing they can sell given the outrageous prices. The only devices of theirs that are decent price-wise are the M1 MacBook Air, and the iPhone SE.

[Shreyas1]

18 hours ago, Marko1600 said:

Microsoft is a incompetent company they should all be fired. MacOS & Linux get updated every year or so, windows got updated after nearly 5

 

Apple isn't better either, they're all just a bunch of collage MBAs focused on squeezing out the bucks. Hence the high prices.

 

Linux lacks vision. Companies like Adobe & the rest of the gang don't care about it

 

So F em all bro use smart fridge OS

microsoft is pretty competent, They just have no reason to care about windows, especially windows for home users, since they don't make a lot of their moment from it

[DANK_AS_gay]

4 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Tbh i expected as much. Most people that think Auto HDR is good just don't know any better. This is not meant as an insult and these people are lucky. But to me as an enthusiast it's much worse than a native HDR game to the point where i'd rather use SDR to begin with.

I don't think my screen is HDR capable anyways, so I don't understand the hype. I've never owned anything that is great at color accuracy and contrast ratio besides a Mac, and it looks gorgeous, but when gaming I wouldn't notice anyways.

[Rez9x]

I uninstalled Windows 11 and went back to Windows 10 because I was having issues with video codecs, but I seem to recall seeing the option to move the taskbar in third party software (Winaero Tweaker).

 

You can still customize Windows more than macOS, but they're getting closer. At the rate they're going, you'll probably be unable to change system sounds soon, even with third party software.

[jagdtigger]

49 minutes ago, Rez9x said:

codecs

The foolproof way to definitely bork your windows install. Just use programs that have internal codecs that doesnt mess with thr OS and ditch anything that requries you to install them into the OS.

[Forbidden Wafer]

7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

The problem is that telemetry data does not show the full story.

"only 5% of users use feature X"

"only 5% of users use feature Y"

"only 5% of users use feature Z"

 

Repeat that 20 times and you have suddenly pissed off 100% of your users, (assuming no overlap of course).

Exactly. And maybe nobody uses it in W11 because they turned it into trash.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

The OS is fine as far as I can tell. It doesn't have infinite customizability, but somehow it is better than Windows 11. I like how intuitive it is to use, it is in fact so intuitive that Windows copied some of the most common gestures on MacOS lol. For example the 3 finger swipe. When coming away from my computer, I don't feel like I have had to fight it to do the things I want to do. The things that don't come with MacOS, like NTFS file systems, can be added back with plugins/extensions. Something Apple does well is user experience, as that is the only thing they can sell given the outrageous prices. The only devices of theirs that are decent price-wise are the M1 MacBook Air, and the iPhone SE.

To be fair Apple now has objectively one of the best cpus out their for laptops as it is so power efficient that for alot of people the battery life alone could make their laptops worth it. Also Apple phones have had objectively the best phone cpus for awhile now so they can reasonably price their phones higher not to mention they have better support than android phones as most Android phones drop support much sooner than Apple. 

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, Shreyas1 said:

microsoft is pretty competent, They just have no reason to care about windows, especially windows for home users, since they don't make a lot of their moment from it

Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with a rocket launcher since they let people "upgrade" to windows 8 for free as everyone expects windows to be cheap or free.

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

The foolproof way to definitely bork your windows install. Just use programs that have internal codecs that doesnt mess with thr OS and ditch anything that requries you to install them into the OS.

Its the same with audio codecs unfortunately, Creative sound cards still manage to ruin a windows install if the drivers are buggy.

[Vanderburg]

22 hours ago, darknessblade said:

this is a feature many people want in windows 11 and have been using for decades.

How many, exactly?

[Stahlmann]

2 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

sometiems windows gets confused and just telles everything to turn white

I have yet to see that myself. I used probably about 8 different displays that support HDR over the last few years. And with the displays i currently have, HDR is turned on 24/7. Every problem i had so far could easily be tracked to the monitor side of things.

[darknessblade]

23 minutes ago, Vanderburg said:

How many, exactly?

At least enough people, that they had to address it.

 

https://www.change.org/p/microsoft-microsoft-to-re-add-vertical-taskbar-options-in-windows-11

 

Based on the Explorerpatcher github that brings back said feature, at least 4.6K people want to have it brought back officially

https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher

[bmx6454]

i did the simple regedit to move my taskbar to the top where i prefer it, but it causes a number of bugs and should just be an option out of the box... going back to windows 10 soon, win11 sucks imo

if this becomes a thing, please post the link lol:

On 4/10/2022 at 5:18 PM, darknessblade said:

Can someone please start a Petition to get " Tali Roth" FIRED

[LAwLz]

4 hours ago, tim0901 said:

I think this is very much an example of observer bias. Is this the most requested feature amongst the angry computer nerd audience that rants about the deficiencies of Windows 11 on the internet? Absolutely. But is that still the case amongst the entire population of Windows 11 users? I doubt it. How often do you see people actually using the option in the real world?

But what's the point of the feedback hub if they will just dismiss the voting system as "well, people don't really want it even though it's the most requested feature"?

People like GoodBytes constantly tells people "post it in the feedback hub" when someone brings up an issue or feature request.

 

I don't think the news here is "Microsoft won't implement movable taskbar". I think the news here is "Microsoft admits that they don't give two fucks about the feedback hub. Your feedback is not considered. It's a waste of time." Because that's the implication of this.