Intel introduces first new ATX Spec in nearly 20 years (ATX 3.0) with ATX12VO and 12+4-pin 12VHPWR connections- Just in time for RTX 3090ti next week

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

Summary

 It has been in the works for quite awhile, but Intel is finally introducing a new ATX PSU spec. It sounds like ALL new >450w power supplies are going to have to abide by this spec or face higher component prices. This new spec will allow PSU's to provide 600w on one rail for next generation PCIE Gen 5 GPUS. These new PSUs will also be more durable as well as more power efficient. 

 

Quotes

Quote

 "A new 12VHPWR connector will power most, if not all, future PCIe 5.0 desktop Add-in cards (e.g., graphics cards). This new connector provides up to 600 watts directly to any PCIe 5.0 Add-in/graphics card. It also includes sideband signals that will allow the power supply to communicate the power limit it can provide to any PCIe 5.0 graphic card"

 

My thoughts

As much as I look forward to getting rid of ugly 24pin ATX Cables/ 2/3x 8 pin PCIE cables, I can see this being a big issue. I can see a situation where 80% of Zen 4 (X670?) and Raptor Lake (Z790?) motherboards use the old spec with the 24 pin power connector, and the other 20% adopt the new standard. This is going to cause a really awkward transition phase where it is hard to recommend the route for builders to take. I can see there being a shortage of these new power supplies for sure. The 4090? is going to pull at a minimum 350 <  watts, so A LOT of people are going to be looking at new PSU's anyways, why not get the new spec? There is also a rumor that some of the AIB 3090tis are going to use the new 12+4 pin connector, while some will use 3x8 pin. What a mess. 

 

Sources

 https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/news/intel-introduces-new-atx-psu-specifications.html 

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

@jonnyGURU Let's get your thoughts on this 

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Ryan829 said:

Summary

 It has been in the works for quite awhile, but Intel is finally introducing a new ATX PSU spec. It sounds like ALL new <450w power supplies are going to have to abide by this spec or face higher component prices.

You mean > 450W and not < 450W, right?  We'll get back to this part when you can clear up what you're trying to say here.

32 minutes ago, Ryan829 said:

"A new 12VHPWR connector will power most, if not all, future PCIe 5.0 desktop Add-in cards (e.g., graphics cards). This new connector provides up to 600 watts directly to any PCIe 5.0 Add-in/graphics card. It also includes sideband signals that will allow the power supply to communicate the power limit it can provide to any PCIe 5.0 graphic card"

They're not signals.  At least not the wires that the desktop cards will use.  They're just sense grounds.  Read Aris's write up on it.  It has the table on there.

32 minutes ago, Ryan829 said:

350> watts

Please figure out how to use the > and < signs.  

32 minutes ago, Ryan829 said:

As much as I look forward to getting rid of ugly 24pin ATX Cables/ 2/3x 8 pin PCIE cables, I can see this being a big issue. I can see a situation where 80% of Zen 4 (X670?) and Raptor Lake (Z790?) motherboards use the old spec with the 24 pin power connector, and the other 20% adopt the new standard. This is going to cause a really awkward transition phase where it is hard to recommend the route for builders to take.

Why?  When you're building, you take into account the chassis (ATX?  SFX?), the motherboard (ATX12V?  ATX12VO?) and the GPU (6-pin?  Two 6-pin?  6 & 8-pin?  Three 8-pin?  12+4-pin)  So this is no different.

 

What it WILL mean in many situations is you won't be able to shove your 10 year old PSU into your 4090 build.  But hey.....  You just spend $3K on a GPU!  What's another couple hundo?

 

32 minutes ago, Ryan829 said:

I can see there being a shortage of these new power supplies for sure.

For sure?  How do you come to this conclusion?

32 minutes ago, Ryan829 said:

Summary

The 4090? is going to pull at a minimum >350 watts, so A LOT of people are going to be looking at new PSU's anyways, why not get the new spec?

Actually, 600W.  Where did you get 350W from?  LOL!  And yes..... Why not get the new spec?

32 minutes ago, Ryan829 said:

There is also a rumor that some of the AIB 3090tis are going to use the new 12+4 pin connector, while some will use 3x8 pin. What a mess. 

That would be a mess.  But remember:  The 12+4-pin is part of the PCIe 5.0 spec.  PCI-SIG has the "old" 6 and 8-pin connectors anywhere in the 5.0 spec.  So if they put something other than a 12+4 pin on the card, they're breaking spec and my guess is PCI-SIG won't let them say the card is PCIe 5.0.

 

 

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

1 minute ago, jonnyGURU said:

You mean > 450W and not < 450W, right?  We'll get back to this part when you can clear up what you're trying to say here.

They're not signals.  At least not the wires that the desktop cards will use.  They're just sense grounds.  Read Aris's write up on it.  It has the table on there.

Please figure out how to use the > and < signs.  

Why?  When you're building, you take into account the chassis (ATX?  SFX?), the motherboard (ATX12V?  ATX12VO?) and the GPU (6-pin?  Two 6-pin?  6 & 8-pin?  Three 8-pin?  12+4-pin)  So this is no different.

 

What it WILL mean in many situations is you won't be able to shove your 10 year old PSU into your 4090 build.  But hey.....  You just spend $3K on a GPU!  What's another couple hundo?

 

For sure?  How do you come to this conclusion?

Actually, 600W.  Where did you get 350W from?  LOL!  And yes..... Why not get the new spec?

That would be a mess.  But remember:  The 12+4-pin is part of the PCIe 5.0 spec.  PCI-SIG has the "old" 6 and 8-pin connectors anywhere in the 5.0 spec.  So if they put something other than a 12+4 pin on the card, they're breaking spec and my guess is PCI-SIG won't let them say the card is PCIe 5.0.

 

 

I always sucked at math lmao. Stupid < > signs lol 

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

4 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

You mean > 450W and not < 450W, right?  We'll get back to this part when you can clear up what you're trying to say here.

They're not signals.  At least not the wires that the desktop cards will use.  They're just sense grounds.  Read Aris's write up on it.  It has the table on there.

Please figure out how to use the > and < signs.  

Why?  When you're building, you take into account the chassis (ATX?  SFX?), the motherboard (ATX12V?  ATX12VO?) and the GPU (6-pin?  Two 6-pin?  6 & 8-pin?  Three 8-pin?  12+4-pin)  So this is no different.

 

What it WILL mean in many situations is you won't be able to shove your 10 year old PSU into your 4090 build.  But hey.....  You just spend $3K on a GPU!  What's another couple hundo?

 

For sure?  How do you come to this conclusion?

Actually, 600W.  Where did you get 350W from?  LOL!  And yes..... Why not get the new spec?

That would be a mess.  But remember:  The 12+4-pin is part of the PCIe 5.0 spec.  PCI-SIG has the "old" 6 and 8-pin connectors anywhere in the 5.0 spec.  So if they put something other than a 12+4 pin on the card, they're breaking spec and my guess is PCI-SIG won't let them say the card is PCIe 5.0.

 

 

350w was just conservative guess. Probably more like 500 at least. And there will be a shortage because there is a shortage of everything post 2020 it seems 

[Guest]

Even the 3090 Ti is doing 450W right now.

 

[Fnige]

Just now, Ryan829 said:

I always sucked at math lmao. Stupid < > signs lol 

Best way to remember which is which is that the crocodile will always face towards the bigger meal (or in this case: wattage)

[Quackers101]

2 hours ago, FnigePython said:

Best way to remember which is which is that the crocodile will always face towards the bigger meal (or in this case: wattage)

as in 10 > x (is less than x) or 10 < x (is more than x).

but else mostly remember it being as you say, where the gap faces < the bigger it is or more.

Do feel that people do read those > < signs differently and write them differently, which can cause confusion.

 

yay standards, oh wait no! arrggh! Also not the first time we talked about ATX12VO, last time a lot of drama about it.

Not going to help if brands don't say when the switch does happen, so that older products are not left behind or if there will be some help at the start.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Quackers101

[Guest]

4 hours ago, jonnyGURU said:

But hey.....  You just spend $3K on a GPU!  What's another couple hundo?

Those poor schmucks who spent a thousand bucks on fancier 1200 watt PSUs 10 years ago would have to find a new one.

 

Not that it matters to me anyway

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Herrscher of Whatever said:

Those poor schmucks who spent a thousand bucks on fancier 1200 watt PSUs 10 years ago would have to find a new one.

Do they? 

 

Nobody said they didn't work.  Just that they would need a new cable if they get a PCIe 5.0 graphics card.

 

Not everybody NEEDS ALSM.  Nobody NEEDS 60% and higher efficiency at 2% load.  That's just it.  These "requirements" don't mean an older PSU won't work.  It only means they won't comply with all of the requirements that would make the PSU "ATX12V 3.0 compliant".

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

yay standards, oh wait no! arrggh! Also not the first time we talked about ATX12VO, last time a lot of drama about it.

Not going to help if brands don't say when the switch does happen, so that older products are not left behind or if there will be some help at the start.

It's a good thing that the ATX12VO 2.0 came out only days after ATX12V 3.0 and pretty much say "ATX12VO is the same as ATX12V 3.0 except there's no 3.3V and 5V and the standby is now +12VSB." because either way it's a new PSU, so why not just get the ATX12VO (assuming a board other than an H610 is available.. which I have yet to see.  )

 

 

[Quackers101]

3 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

It's a good thing that the ATX12VO 2.0 came out only days after ATX12V 3.0 and pretty much say "ATX12VO is the same as ATX12V 3.0 except there's no 3.3V and 5V and the standby is now +12VSB." because either way it's a new PSU, so why not just get the ATX12VO (assuming a board other than an H610 is available.. which I have yet to see.  )

comes out with ATX12V 3.3 gen 1.2, just after the first month of release.

Anyways, how do you feel this would impact PSU's and SFX ones? A good overall change?

Edited March 24, 2022 by Quackers101

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

comes out with ATX12V 3.3 gen 1.2, just after the first month of release.

Anyways, how do you feel this would impact PSU's and SFX ones? A good overall change?

Thing is, for most PSUs, ATX 3.0 is just adding the new connector cable.  The sleep mode and efficiency stuff is usually there (if it's a recent and decent PSU).  SFX wil have an issue with OCP due to secondary capacitance. That's my big concern.  I haven't seen ANYONE attempt to address that yet.

 

[Mihle]

Last time I bought a new computer, 2,5 years ago ish, I got a higher quality PSU to reuse it for next computer, guess that won't happen as easily as I planned to then?

[Rauten]

7 hours ago, Caroline said:

Heh, why buy a space heater when you can buy a 600W graphics card.

You laugh, but I rarely need to use heating for my living room, because of the heat output of my 1080Ti when playing demanding games.

The frames doth bring comfort and warmth upon mine humble abode.

 

My main concern with this is, personally, what standard will AM5 use?

My current plan was to build a new computer based on a Ryzen 7000 CPU (provided reviews are good), but if I'm going to have to buy an "old" PSU but then be blocked from upgrading to a PCIe 5.0 GPU... hhrrmm...

 

7 hours ago, jonnyGURU said:

Nobody said they didn't work.  Just that they would need a new cable if they get a PCIe 5.0 graphics card.

How?

No, seriously, I know nothing of this, but, if the new standard is "ALL IS 12 VOLTS NOW!", how are you going to adapt that for current PSUs that aren't build to deliver that much power through their 12V lanes, and simply don't have that many 12V connectors available? 

Can you please explain how it'd work?

[TVwazhere]

3 hours ago, Rauten said:

My main concern with this is, personally, what standard will AM5 use?

Depends on how soon PSU OEM's start adopting the new connectors, relative to when AM5 launches. Wasnt the rumor that it would be announced in July? Might be a situation where some use one connection, and some use another, similar to how Intel's got DDR4 and DDR5 boards for it's LGA1700

[Helpful Tech Witch]

13 hours ago, jonnyGURU said:

Do they? 

 

Nobody said they didn't work.  Just that they would need a new cable if they get a PCIe 5.0 graphics card.

 

Not everybody NEEDS ALSM.  Nobody NEEDS 60% and higher efficiency at 2% load.  That's just it.  These "requirements" don't mean an older PSU won't work.  It only means they won't comply with all of the requirements that would make the PSU "ATX12V 3.0 compliant".

 

Actually, having high efficency at low loads is something a lot of people need.

id rather not be paying hundreds a year from having my psu pull 300w when in sleep….

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Rauten said:

How?

No, seriously, I know nothing of this, but, if the new standard is "ALL IS 12 VOLTS NOW!", how are you going to adapt that for current PSUs that aren't build to deliver that much power through their 12V lanes, and simply don't have that many 12V connectors available? 

Can you please explain how it'd work?

We're talking about two different things here.

 

ATX12VO is one thing.  PCIe 5.0 is another thing.  You don't need ATX12VO for PCIe 5.0.  PCIe 5.0 is just the new power cable.

 

1Now... cleanse palate, because I'm going to change the subject from PCIe 5.0 to ATX12VO.....

 

You CAN use an ATX power supply with an ATX12VO board.  That's why this exists:  https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Categories/Products/Accessories-|-Parts/PC-Components/Power-Supplies/ATX12VO-Adapter-Cable/p/CP-8920272

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Helpful Tech Wiard said:

Actually, having high efficency at low loads is something a lot of people need.

id rather not be paying hundreds a year from having my psu pull 300w when in sleep….

That's still not a need.  That's a nice to have.  

[Helpful Tech Witch]

13 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

That's still not a need.  That's a nice to have.  

Yea, but so is money.

Having a psu that’s efficient means your not wasting money. Which is a need for people who don’t make much of it….

[NumLock21]

23 hours ago, Ryan829 said:

I always sucked at math lmao. Stupid < > signs lol 

Easiest way to remember the < > signs is

 

< looks like the letter L. L for less than

> looks like the letter L going backwards. backwards L for greater than.

[Deadpool2onBlu-Ray]

2 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

Easiest way to remember the < > signs is

 

< looks like the letter L. L for less than

> looks like the letter L going backwards. backwards L for greater than.

Thanks lol

[cmndr]

On 3/23/2022 at 12:17 PM, Ryan829 said:

I can see there being a shortage of these new power supplies for sure.

I'll preface this with - this is out of my wheelhouse so take everything with a grain of salt.

 

While transitions do create supply chain risks, it should be noted that A LOT of companies have been doing single voltage PSUs for a long time.
Virtually all laptop chargers are single voltage (or were in the past, USB-C can handle a few different levels).
A lot of OEM based desktops are also single voltage units.

I'd want to fact check myself, but it's VERY probable that you could get away with using an adapter and a multi-rail PSU with a new board. I could be wrong though. I'm sure it's not "good" to leave a 5V rail completely unused.

[Spotty]

2 hours ago, cmndr said:

I'd want to fact check myself, but it's VERY probable that you could get away with using an adapter and a multi-rail PSU with a new board. I could be wrong though. I'm sure it's not "good" to leave a 5V rail completely unused.

You can. The adapter cables use a boost converter to adapt the +5VSB to +12VSB. The rest is just using the existing 12V from the normal ATX PSU.

See:

On 3/25/2022 at 3:47 AM, jonnyGURU said:

You CAN use an ATX power supply with an ATX12VO board.  That's why this exists:  https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Categories/Products/Accessories-|-Parts/PC-Components/Power-Supplies/ATX12VO-Adapter-Cable/p/CP-8920272

 

Shouldn't matter on modern PSUs if the 5V rail is unused. On much older PSUs that were designed for the load to be on 5V rail (think 15+ years ago) then it might be more of a problem. With an ATX to ATX12VO adapter cable though you're only converting the cable to the motherboard to ATX12VO. You can still use the peripheral power connectors from the ATX PSU for 5V & 3.3V, you don't need to use the cables that connect to the motherboard to get 5V & 3.3V for HDDs and so on. If you have HDDs or RGB fan hubs/controllers plugged in directly to the PSU then that would still put a load on 5V from the PSU anyway, not that it should really matter.

[Dogzilla07]

@Ryan829Ties in nicely with the HardwareBusters article from a few weeks ago:

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-atx-v3-psu-standard

 

Also a bit more clarification for ATX12VO and where they want to take it. I'm really wondering what motherboard and PSU are in MSI's two new PCs based on ATX12VO. FOR the PSU It looks like it's that FSP model that got announced a while back, while mobo probably MSI's own custom built ?

 

https://www.msi.com/Content-Creation-PC/Creator-P100A-12th/Specification

 

https://www.msi.com/Desktop/MPG-Trident-AS-12th/Specification