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Whats your thoughts on the raising of minimum wage?

clonebohm
By clonebohm
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I have recently heard about this topic and i was wondering what peoples thoughts on it was.

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money

 

I mean, as inflation goes up and prices raise, minimum wage should go up. Simple.

 

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So, there are 3 issues with "wages", "Inflation", and "poverty".

 

The first is that there are two types of inflation. There's cost inflation, and what I call the 'CEO Tax'.

 

Basically, as stuff gets more expensive, you pay more for it, so I'll use a fictitious soda, Buttcheek Cola (or BC), to illustrate my point.

 

In the 1940's, BC started making and selling Butterscotch flavored soda. It cost them $0.02 to purchase the ingredients for one bottle, including the glass, the cap, the water, butterscotch, etc., and then another $0.02 to pay an employee to turn the ingredients into (hopefully) tasty soda, and to have the employee put the correct amount of soda into the bottle, package it, deliver it, etc. So, the company spent $0.04 to get that product from a bunch of ingredients, into a (probably) tasty beverage. They charged you $0.05 to purchase it. This covers the materials, and gives the company a profit, which probably was reinvested into new carbonation machines, better building, better water supply, etc.

 

Now, in the 2020's, BC is now a multi-trillion dollar company. Their new Butterscotch Lite soda is a huge hit, and at $3.00 a bottle, it costs WAY more than their original did back in the 1940's.

 

The BOM (bill of materials) hasn't really changed much, it costs the company around $0.05 to purchase the plastic for the bottle and the actual ingredients for a single soda. They have to pay for labor, at a cost of around $1.45 to have the ingredients turned into a (likely not) tasty beverage, packaged, and shipped. So, this company spends $1.50 making and moving the product, but they charge $3.00 for it.

 

So, where does the second $1.50 go?

 

Right up the CEO's ass.

 

The CEO has bank accounts all over the world, many of them with more than a million USD in them, yatchs, and expensive cars. He doesn't even interact with anyone at BC anymore, except a few assistants that make phone calls to have people all over the world just do their jobs.

 

So, back to the actual concept of 'minimum wage', and how this entire trainwreck of a fictitious example ties in:

 

Every time Minimum wage goes up, that labor cost at $1.45 increases. Maybe it goes up to $1.55. Instead of the CEO taking less of a direct cut, the company jacks the price up from $3.00/20oz to $3.30/20oz. This means the CEO keeps making a huge profit off of each bottle sold, while it's hyper-inflating the price of the soda. Instead of paying for the increased wage of the employees, you're paying for that AND a MASSIVE pay bump for the company's CEO.

 

Now, this is a fictitious example, and there isn't a funnel or train track or whatever feeding directly into the rectal orifice of a theoretical CEO somewhere, and that money doesn't just go to the CEO, some of it might go to R&D, board members, and probably a LOT of it goes to investors and shareholders, but it turns into a massive paycheck for the people running the company.

 

How do we fix this? I honestly have no idea. When BC spends $1.3 billion USD a year on R&D for their next cola flavor, can you really ask them to charge less for their products? One thing that 'can' help is if BC puts out bad product that makes people sick, is to actually hold the people at the top accountable. If someone gets killed, the CEO, board, and investors should all be fined an entire year's worth of their bonuses, income, or dividends. You want to see a company suddenly grow a conscience? Fine the CEO $1.2 billion USD for putting out a defective product that killed someone, tell all investors that they are going to be shorted ALL payments for the next 12 months, and tell the board of directors that if it happens again, not only will they lose another 12 month's worth of income, but they'll all be in jail for a year.

 

TL;DR: The "Wage problem" is actually a "corporate problem", where massive companies basically funnel most of your money into their management.

"Don't fall down the hole!" ~James, 2022

 

"If you have a monitor, look at that monitor with your eyeballs." ~ Jake, 2022

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It shouldn't be blanket coverage for the whole US as the cost of living varies significantly. It should be well thought out and calculated for regions of the US. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted

isn't this politics? politics is banned in this forum? even though I struggle to understand the line between politics and other subjects

 

anyway it makes sense only politically, for everything else it doesn't

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Absolutely for the US's minimum wage. It's a literal joke how low it can be. Especially if you work with tips ($2.13/hr), thus pushing even more the tipping culture (though employers should still be giving you the difference if your tips didn't reach the $7.25/hr minimum wage).

 

But not in one go.

 

Make it incremental. Like, if it's $7.25 today, make it $8 within a few months... then $9 the year after... gradually going up to at least $12 or higher depending on the area.

 

That said, not all states have the same minimum wage, nor should they.

https://blog.wagepoint.com/all-content/minimum-wage-requirements-by-state
Heck, some already have $15/hr

(same thing in Canada, the different provinces don't all have the same minimum wage. 

https://nethris.com/legislation/minimum-wage/ )

 

It should entirely depend on the cost of living(how expensive the average rent is, etc.) in that province/state vs others.

There's a lot of issues with raise the minimum wage that can arise though. From rents, food and everything else going up in price accordingly...

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Raising the minimum wage, on it's own, won't fix anything. It won't even help people who are suffering right now. You'd be better off mandating shipments of food to every household with an AGI below $X. "You can't pay rent with food!" True, but you don't die with food, and you do die without food. Exposure can also kill, so I'm NOT saying homelessness is ideal. It's just a problem better solved by fixing society than by providing everyone a tent.

 

The real problem is income fairness. When you have a CEO earning $500/hr {effective $1mill/year wage rate} and the minimum wage people earning $7.50, you have a huge problem. When the board of directors, C-suite, VPs, and directors are all making north of $250/hr, you end up with a million or so people who all have 10-30x the wealth of 'most' people. So your house can be 10x bigger, your food can be 10x better, your schools can be 10x better all at the same time! This should horrify people, but it doesn't, for some reason.

 

When you have someone with 30x more money, the economy gets all screwy. Notice how houses are less and less affordable, and the houses that do get built are always in massive subdivisions built by the same builder at a large scale? Why is that? Because it's the only economically viable way to convince people that a house which, anywhere else in that area, would be worth 50-70% of the price tag is actually worth the asking price. A buddy of mine just bought one of these houses and was the one that pointed out that he got less sqft and land area for a higher price. But he went new construction so he could get an internal layout that wasn't dumb, and because it was all he and his wife could afford.

 

So all the houses end up catering to those people with 10-30x as much money, because there are enough of them that building a really nice house for them might get them to move out of their current one, and that frees up a house for someone with 5x instead of 10x. "Trickle down housing". Hah!

 

This isn't sustainable, and fixing minimum wage is putting a bandaid on a leaking dam. The problem is wage fairness. The width between the top and bottom needs to be made narrower. So long as that width is as large as it is now, you can't actually fix anything because the market will always cater to people at the top. By limiting the distance between the bottom and the top you make it so that there is a better economic incentive to cater to people who are not at the top.

 

So, basically, what I'm saying is "Raising the minimum wage without also capping the maximum wage, is never going to be of use to anyone for more than a few months at most."

 

 

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i think it should be at least increased to keep up with inflation which is around 11 dollars or so. there is an argument that it should be increased to keep up with the productivity increase also. but im not sure about a blanket raise to 15 maybe it should be done on a per industry basis

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57 minutes ago, Sarra said:

TL;DR: The "Wage problem" is actually a "corporate problem", where massive companies basically funnel most of your money into their management.

Main problem with that is that huge corporations coincide with the greatest increase in consumer spending power in human history.  Remember the story that's been told a thousand times how the huge chain thing drives out all of the mom and pop things?  That's because the huge chain thing runs on razor thin margins, but it does that 1.2 trillion times a year, resulting in large profits in concrete terms.  

 

That CEO that's making millions of dollars?  It's a pitiful fraction of the profits of the company as well as the total labor costs of the company.  Most corporations could liquidate their CEO of all of his/her assets and pay the rest of their employees...like a few hundred bucks a year.  And I'll also note that you're minimizing the role of CEOs.  At that level, it's not the hours you put in.  It's the decisions you make.  So yeah, if the CEO is out playing golf for most of his tenure but instructs the company to move in a new direction at the right time -- a decision that gives the company a huge new market -- he's worth every penny the company spent on him.  

And that's exactly what CEOs are paid to do, and it's why they're paid so much.  Because the profits they generate are gargantuan.  



As for the main problem with minimum wage, it's that the real minimum wage is zero: as in, your employer fires you because you don't produce enough to pay your government mandated minimum wage.  It's been said that this will inevitably happen eventually.  I don't necessarily think that's the case, but if you want it to definitely happen -- and soon -- keep driving up that minimum wage.  

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While I"m not against it per se, raising it doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are consequences to doing that, and those consequences would need to be addressed as well, otherwise chaos will ensue.

 

NOTE: I no longer frequent this site. If you really need help, PM/DM me and my e.mail will alert me. 

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9 minutes ago, Rybo said:

Main problem with that is that huge corporations coincide with the greatest increase in consumer spending power in human history.  Remember the story that's been told a thousand times how the huge chain thing drives out all of the mom and pop things?  That's because the huge chain thing runs on razor thin margins, but it does that 1.2 trillion times a year, resulting in large profits in concrete terms.  

 

That CEO that's making millions of dollars?  It's a pitiful fraction of the profits of the company as well as the total labor costs of the company.  Most corporations could liquidate their CEO of all of his/her assets and pay the rest of their employees...like a few hundred bucks a year.  And I'll also note that you're minimizing the role of CEOs.  At that level, it's not the hours you put in.  It's the decisions you make.  So yeah, if the CEO is out playing golf for most of his tenure but instructs the company to move in a new direction at the right time -- a decision that gives the company a huge new market -- he's worth every penny the company spent on him.  

And that's exactly what CEOs are paid to do, and it's why they're paid so much.  Because the profits they generate are gargantuan.  



As for the main problem with minimum wage, it's that the real minimum wage is zero: as in, your employer fires you because you don't produce enough to pay your government mandated minimum wage.  It's been said that this will inevitably happen eventually.  I don't necessarily think that's the case, but if you want it to definitely happen -- and soon -- keep driving up that minimum wage.  

except CEO are still paid gigantic amounts even if they drive the company to bankruptcy. and workers being paid too much is not a problem rn as the wealth gap is only increasing

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1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

except CEO are still paid gigantic amounts even if they drive the company to bankruptcy. and workers being paid too much is not a problem rn as the wealth gap is only increasing

That's the fun of contracts.  You have to pay out even when the person you're contracting with burns it all down.  Unless you put protections into the contract.  

But then CEOs will start demanding more, since they're taking such a huge financial risk with the company, which would drive the wealth gap types even more apoplectic than they already are.  

#Muricaparrotgang

 

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4 hours ago, FakeATF said:

money

 

I mean, as inflation goes up and prices raise, minimum wage should go up. Simple.

I don't like it as a federal rule. Long story short, federal minimum should be lower and it should be determined state by state.

Some places are just more expensive than others, so when the federal rate increases it can really screw over the cheaper areas  with rapid inflation. All of a sudden that apartment you were living comfortably in is more expensive, and businesses have to pay people more without necessarily making more money, so they end up both cutting staff and raising prices.

Happened here when they rapidly went from 7.25 to 12 in like 3 years. Prices and unemployment both went up, and jobs are now much pickier about who they hire, though they'll still hire the idiots anyway. Bumping it to 15 would be another $3 boost except without any settling time, in a period of already high unemployment.

It could also destroy small businesses, but no one seems to care about them, not for the past decade anyways.

 

And then there's also the McD's type situations where instead of paying people $15/hr they will just straight replace them with a $500 machine and save more money. Like, that helps no one.

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1 hour ago, Sarra said:

I'll use a fictitious soda, Buttcheek Cola (or BC),

Man, I LOVE the taste of Buttcheek. I just can't get enough!

"Buttcheek Cola, You can smell the taste!"

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When companies hire you, then as part of your training tell you how to apply for government subsidized assistance (SNAP aka "food stamps",  Medicaid), there's a problem in the job market.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-top-employers-of-medicaid-and-food-stamp-beneficiaries.html

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9 hours ago, clonebohm said:

I have recently heard about this topic and i was wondering what peoples thoughts on it was.

Im in before this topic gets locked!!!!!!

 

 

I believe in raising minimum wage. Michigan minimum wage is $9.45 an hour. BUT a lot of places even fast food pay $10 or more. Hell the local BK is paying up to $12 to start. The fact is the fight for $15/hr is working. Just slowly, but surely wages will come up. Because its to the point now that many places have to pay more just to get people to apply. Lots of restaurants in the area are having a bitch of a time finding employees. To the point that they are crying about. 

 

A few take aways id like to add. Most people few minimum wage jobs for high schoolers, especially fast food. The funny part is, most people I see working in fast food are not high schoolers. And less high schoolers are getting into the work force. Many choosing to focus on their education. The other side of it is the population in the US is shrinking. Millennials like my self have between $20k to $100K in student loan debt. So really cant afford to have kids. Many women are choosing to have a career and either not having kids or having them later in life. 

 

What does this all mean? Well businesses are driven by the law of supply and demand. The demand for low skilled workers is up, the supply is down, so the wages go up. At least until everyone returns to work. Though its hard to say when that will be because the government keeps extending unemployment. 

I just want to sit back and watch the world burn. 

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Raising the min wage is almost always a bad idea because it makes it that much harder for new businesses to flourish.

 

The small business owner who has taken a loan to get his company running usually makes very small margins for the first few years and invests most of their own money into their fledging company. The higher the minimum wage, the harder it's going to be for these little guys to stay afloat, and the easier it's going to be for the big corporatiobs to retain their position.

 

The superrich CEO of a trillion dollar company is beneficial for the society as a whole because 1) a trillion dollar company creates many more jobs than a smaller business ever could and that CEO is the one who makes the important decisions that keep those jobs in existence and 2) the superrich have caused entire industries to appear that cater to them (eg., Yachts, luxury goods, $9000 hdmi cables Linus reviewed, etc.) and this has again created additonal jobs that enable even more people to put bread on the table.

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8 minutes ago, Giganthrax said:

. The higher the minimum wage, the harder it's going to be for these little guys to stay afloat, and the easier it's going to be for the big corporatiobs to retain their position.

Regardless. The fact is the big corporations are paying better. It makes it hard for small businesses to attract and retain employees. Turn over is costly to businesses period. Because many times you might have higher payroll as you train that new employee. What happens when an employee only last a few days or a week? Then you continue to have higher payroll as you continue to hire and train employees. For big corporations this is just the cost of doing business. But for a small business this can be a big issue. Because besides higher payroll, you have issues with lack of training and poor customer service. Then there is the issue of trying to attract new employees. Who's going to work minimum wage at some fast food place or small store when they can walk in to Walmart and make $12/hr, or go to a warehouse making $12-14/hr or go to Amazon and make $15/hr. Small business are competing for people and loosing. One of our local sub shops has had issues thru this whole year. They are sometimes open and some times not, all because they cant find anyone to work there. Because who know who's hiring? Amazon, Walmart not to mention Penske who runs the Kroger distribution center.

 

Like to drive and have a CDL? EVERY Trucking company is hiring. My boss has a friend who works at Pitt Ohio. Stated they were 15 drivers down. R&L carriers have a contact with my employer to delver most of their palletized orders. They haven't picked up from our Chicago location for like a week, they are so far behind and dont have enough drivers. You can make big bucks driving a truck. The only reason I dont do it is because I hate driving, also I cant drive a manual. 

 

Even if minimum wage doesnt go up, wages will regardless. They already started in my area. Local BK had make up to $12 an hour on their sign. Every job posting I see for warehouses in the area are between $12 and $15 an hour. Walmart advertises like $12 and hour, $15 for tire techs. The other side of it is this, the population is shrinking. So the amount of "Cheap" labor is not there anymore, not like it was when I was a kid. Employers especially small businesses dont have their employees by the balls anymore, because with in a few days you can replace your employer. 

 

Restaurants in my area are having a rude awaking as well. They cant find anyone. Its to the point that they have to close for a day or two because they dont have the staff. See tons of reports about this happening across the US. Though restaurants not attracting workers is nothing new. The industry was built on the exploitation of workers. Now they are figuring out that no one wants those jobs anymore. So either they pay more, invest in robotics or go out of businesses. 

I just want to sit back and watch the world burn. 

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7 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Man, I LOVE the taste of Buttcheek. I just can't get enough!

"Buttcheek Cola, You can smell the taste!"

omg That's awesome. 😂

 

8 hours ago, Rybo said:

That's the fun of contracts.  You have to pay out even when the person you're contracting with burns it all down.  Unless you put protections into the contract.

True.

 

So, there are things the government, or voters, could do to combat this, which probably won't entirely work.

 

One is that the government, or voters, could get legislation in place that limits the minimum pay at a given company, based on the highest paid employee.

 

Right now, there are companies where the CEO makes more than 100 times more per hour than the ground level, minimum wage new hires. Imagine if the company was in a place where the minimum pay was restricted to 10 times the pay of the highest paid employee? Instead of your BC Soda distribution driver making $10/hour, imagine if the company had to pay him $100/hour. Or cut the CEO's pay to 10% of their current pay.

 

Though, they could loophole the crap out of this, I'm sure.

 

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5 hours ago, SGT-AMD said:

So, If the price of gas goes up, you should make more money?

The only ones that make out are the state govts.

 

I was thinking more in the long tern when I said that, and I didn't really think about the whole charging even more because people need more to pay more. Higher wages simultaneously cause and solve inflation.

 

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That's a political and economic question. Depends of your ideology.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, SGT-AMD said:

SWIFT is hiring as well. SWIFT stands for "Sure wish I had a faster truck"

 

Let’s not talk about that dumpster fire of a trucking company. I’m sure OSHA, the fire department and the police love these guys. They have to be the most accident prone trucking company in the US. At least they provide us with material for some dank memes. 

I just want to sit back and watch the world burn. 

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On 4/8/2021 at 1:05 PM, clonebohm said:

I have recently heard about this topic and i was wondering what peoples thoughts on it was.

It can cause inflation:

Bread costs $1>Minimum wage raise > Businesses raise prices and cut costs to maintain their profit margin>Bread costs $2

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*** Thread locked ***

 

This subject, in particular in US, is highly political topic. Politics are not allowed on forums.

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