Cryptocurrency Mining Blamed For Electricity Outages in Iran

[pas008]

12 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Technically, Iran has crypto farm regulations, and if you're not registered, it's considered and illegal operation.

 

Kinda makes sense, if you're a business then you need to follow local regulation, even if it means losing part of your earnings (not mining during peak hours). IMO it's better to make less than to risk losing the equipment in a gov raid. The article mentions 1600 illegal mining farms (that's a LOT), and I'm guessing not all of them were 100 cards farms as that wouldn't add up, so they probably count people mining with 2-3 cards in there.

 

Still not worth losing your equipment over a few BTC fractions IMO.

 

EDIT ; BTW, I'm not saying crypto has to die, it has it's place IMO, and people should be able to do whatever they want with their hardware, but in the case of Iran, it seems there's an issue with electricity supply, and I think that's fair to assume high consumption that isn't essential be paused.

if they follow regulations then no harm no foul

i dont get this whole i hate cryto shit because i should be entitled to a gpu for my uses lol

 

[WkdPaul]

2 minutes ago, pas008 said:

if they follow regulations then no harm no foul

agreed

 

2 minutes ago, pas008 said:

i dont get this whole i hate cryto shit because i should be entitled to a gpu for my uses lol

I don't get it either. If it's for hardware availability, then it's irrelevant since when miners don't buy them, scalpers now do ... I get it sucks, but it's really a supply issue. And during a global pandemic it kinda makes sense that there would be logistical issues. Not sure why people expect everything to run smoothly.

[Nicnac]

Iran really is a fascinating country

[DrMacintosh]

On 1/13/2021 at 12:09 PM, BuckGup said:

It really isn't.

How is a technology that is disrupting power to people who need it not a cancer? Unregulated mining that causes that consumes that much power should be illegal. We're not talking about "frivolous" power consumption, we're talking dangerous levels of power consumption.  

 

If I was using enough power in my city to cause power outages for everyone else, I'd be in trouble. 

[DrMacintosh]

2 hours ago, pas008 said:

is what they do with 1 or 100 gpus any of your business if they bought them?

If they're using them to generate money for illegal activities or dodge taxes (something crypto is fantastic at doing), yes it is the buisness of the public. 

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, wkdpaul said:

I don't get it either. If it's for hardware availability, then it's irrelevant since when miners don't buy them, scalpers now do 

I think that may play a not insignificant role, even though it doesn't really for me personally (it wasn't even hard to get a 3070, I did have to wait for the right moment however, currently pretty much anything is sold out...) but I think generally the bigger concern is the perceived "waste" of energy... I don't really believe that there wouldn't be better investments to be made with less ecological damage... those cards and equipment + electricity cost a lot... though I'd need to do the math for that, my impression, and of others obviously, is that this kind of thing really doesn't make sense, neither economically nor ecologically. 

 

And then I have a hard time understanding why for example Germany wants to 'ban' plastic, but this... is totally an OK... and yes, even though electricity is rather expensive here, not at least due to ecological concerns, people actually do this... I think it's more of a hobby if anything, because as I said I doubt it's actually worthwhile and sensible compared to other 'investment' forms. 

 

 

 

[pas008]

3 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

If they're using them to generate money for illegal activities or dodge taxes (something crypto is fantastic at doing), yes it is the buisness of the public. 

source on this

but also we covered this posts later

[DrMacintosh]

Just now, pas008 said:

source on this

You want a source for saying that the public should be concerned with preventing illegal activities? 

[WkdPaul]

4 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

You want a source for saying that the public should be concerned with preventing illegal activities? 

Could you please stop being disingenuous? It's getting rather old and annoying. What he was OBVIOUSLY asking about ;

 

8 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

If they're using them to generate money for illegal activities or dodge taxes

 

 

As the article said, and others have mentioned (me included) ; there were 1600 mining farms found by the authorities, so there's an obvious issue in Iran specifically. Iran is regulating mining farms, and it seems a LOT of people are mining illegally. That specific issue is a separate one for cryptocurencies themselves. If they would make more money by throwing sand in the ocean, then that's what they would be doing instead of mining.

 

Now, can we have an honest discussion, or are you going to claim a blackout will erase someone's crypto wallet again?

[BuckGup]

28 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

How is a technology that is disrupting power to people who need it not a cancer? Unregulated mining that causes that consumes that much power should be illegal. We're not talking about "frivolous" power consumption, we're talking dangerous levels of power consumption.  

 

If I was using enough power in my city to cause power outages for everyone else, I'd be in trouble. 

SGI, Cray, and HPE all have caused power issues related to HPC use in my home town. Most clusters use more power than the town they are in and require very special power connections. Most of the energy used is for cooling too which is a complete waste as they are just heating air/water on a massive scale. If the company is private there's no difference than if I was using it for mining for myself or a company I own

[DrMacintosh]

32 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Now, can we have an honest discussion, or are you going to claim a blackout will erase someone's crypto wallet again?

I never said a blackout erases a crypto wallet. I said when there's a blackout a person with a crypto wallet is broke. Such a problem does not exist with Legal Tender Cash and Credit Cards (which were used without internet or power just a few decades ago). 

[WkdPaul]

4 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

I never said a blackout erases a crypto wallet. I said when there's a blackout a person with a crypto wallet is broke. Such a problem does not exist with Legal Tender Cash and Credit Cards (which were used without internet or power just a few decades ago). 

Again with the disingenuous statements ... if there's a blackout, someone with a crypto wallet isn't broke*, but someone without cash on hand and only a debit card is.

 

*You can't use crypto for day to day purchases (I don't think anyone here said so), it's mostly used as investments or novelty, it's like saying someone is broke when there's a blackout because they don't have access to their investment portfolio.

 

You can disagree with the use or the need of crypto currency, that's perfectly fine and I understand why one would, but throwing pointless and ridiculous arguments in the mix isn't helping the discussion at all. So again, if you're willing to discuss it, please don't throw these deceptive replies in.

[Moonzy]

21 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

This an embarrassingly bad comparison. 

 

1 gamer typically uses 1 gpu. 

 

1 miner typically uses hundreds or thousands gpus. 

 

How does that compare? hint: it does not. 

Different application uses different tools

 

You shouldn't use a beef knife to kill a chikin. (Your comparison)

But chikin and beef farms are both taking lives of animals. (Gaming vs mining comparison)

 

8 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

TIL my PC (bought from crypto) is imaginary.

My 3060tis are all imaginary, it literally doesn't exist in the market anyways

[Moonzy]

As for more on-topic comment:

If the energy supplier allowed the user to pull 200A for his uses, they'd better be able to supply it and not blame him when he decides to use all 200A and cause a power outage.

 

Blaming it entirely on miners is illogical, imo

Sure, if they prioritize others and want others to have electricity to use, they could stop mining, but they're not obligated to do so, and it's up to the energy supplier to supply enough energy. Same goes for GPU stock availability

 

I get that energy supplier will promise more capacity than they can deliver because not everyone uses all the capacity needed

But I don't think the user that uses the allowed capacity is to be blamed.

[Kisai]

53 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

As for more on-topic comment:

If the energy supplier allowed the user to pull 200A for his uses, they'd better be able to supply it and not blame him when he decides to use all 200A and cause a power outage.

 

That's not how energy supply and demand works. Energy works in a curve, off-peak when people are sleeping, and on-peak during business hours. Some places, like California actually charge you more for using energy during on-peak.

 

In North America, and North America alone, the energy grid is tightly integrated, if one region consumes too much power, or another region's generation capacity is oversold, that's it, brownouts for 100% of the people on that grid. When (usually left-wing) people protest building more green energy (like hydro, geothermal, wind, or solar) it's usually because of an environmental issue, and usually an easily mitigated one. When (usually right-wing) people complain about energy costs, it's because they did nothing to ensure maintenance and capacity issues were resolved, rather they just took all the profits out of the energy companies and assumed the free-market would take over. That was Enron. It's outsourcing to whoever has the cheapest generation costs, and when everyone wants access to the same cheap source, the price goes up, well past your own generation costs.

 

So to all the crypto-shills on the forum, your "I'm paying for it, I'll do what I want" does not gaurantee you that what you think you're getting. Commercial energy costs are fixed, and if you don't use the minimum, you are still paying for it. That's why it's billed differently, because the energy company builds the capacity around YOUR needs. If your business is no longer viable, it will still be paying for that energy contract for 10-20-50 years.  So unless you're paying for that electricity at a commercial rate, I don't want to hear that excuse, because you're really just raising the energy costs for your neighbors and everyone else on that energy grid, which means 1/3rd of North America if you're here. A drop in the bucket at that scale, but at the local level, eg Alaska or Vancouver Island BC, where there is a very limited amount of generation capacity, you're villain here. What is happening in Iran is what likely is happening everywhere at localized levels where there are no integrated power grids.

 

53 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Blaming it entirely on miners is illogical, imo

Sure, if they prioritize others and want others to have electricity to use, they could stop mining, but they're not obligated to do so, and it's up to the energy supplier to supply enough energy. Same goes for GPU stock availability

 

I get that energy supplier will promise more capacity than they can deliver because not everyone uses all the capacity needed

But I don't think the user that uses the allowed capacity is to be blamed.

If they are paying commercial rates to guarantee them that electricity, than people can quit complaining. But they aren't. Most of these crypto miners are operating out of their garage/basement. The only way this stops is by having electricity cost skyrocket past the point of "profitable" for crypto coins, and that means electricity doesn't cost 40c per kwh, but $400/kwh

 

[Moonzy]

55 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Commercial energy costs are fixed, and if you don't use the minimum, you are still paying for it. That's why it's billed differently, because the energy company builds the capacity around YOUR needs.

mining does suddenly increase the demand for capacity.

but i see this as an issue for all electric users, not just miners specifically, though.

but i wont deny that miners do use more electricity, thus is a bigger contributor to the issue.

 

i guess it's like people yelling at TSMC to just build more fabs to put out more supply, when the demand is only temporary.

 

but again, blaming solely on miners doesnt make sense to me because they are as deserving to use electricity as anyone else, and everyone else that uses electricity is also responsible for the outage, just to a less of a degree, yet they're pointing fingers at miners and put the blame on them. unless you're arguing that "mining is pointless waste of energy", then that's a different point to debate upon.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Moonzy said:

mining does suddenly increase the demand for capacity.

but i see this as an issue for all electric users, not just miners specifically, though.

Some locations are strictly limited.

 

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/prices-and-factors-affecting-prices.php

 

 

People cryptomining in Hawaii... are the in same situation as Iran. 

 

In fact, take a look at the generation deficit for California and DC:

 

If you scroll to the bottom, it's more telling.

Net Generation: 4,126,882,144, Total retail sales:

3,811,150,463

So there's only 315,731,681MWh of unsold capacity.

 

To find the other half of the numbers, you have to look at Canada.

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-commodities/electricity/statistics/electricity-summary/electricity-annual-trade-summary-2019.html

 

Canada exports 60.4TWh (60,000,000MWh), and imports 13.4TWh ( 13,400,000MWh)

Quote

In general, electricity imports help avoid the costs of building additional generation in Canada that would sit idle at non-peak times. Canadian provinces have a greater capacity to exchange electricity with American states along north-south interconnections than between neighboring Canadian provinces. Therefore, although electricity pricing in U.S. markets is usually higher than in Canadian markets, provinces frequently import electricity from the U.S. to meet periods of peak demand or when importing is cheaper than generating electricity regionally.

 

Notice that between 2017 and 2018 suddenly there is a large jump in energy imports and isn't going down, while the export levels are going down. Is that bitcoin mining, or was there some massive industry growth (eg EV uptake)

 

 

 

[fred82]

Indeed a real story behind this...

It is forbidden to do crypto mining 

But the leader Khamenei decided to make China an essential ally(especially with Trump being so much anti Iran )

and part of the deals is giving Chinese companies lot of businesses in Iran

one of them: lot of Chinese farms exist in Iran 

 

[The1Dickens]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

--SNIP--

This is essentially what I wanted to post earlier, but didn't have the data to put forth, so felt it ultimately futile.

 

I had more to add, but now I've gone down the rabbit hole of looking at information and stats, but ultimately, regardless of how I feel about miners, I feel as a whole, the grid isn't able to keep up with our electrical demand. They may be making it worse in some spots, but I very much remember brown-outs in California well before crypto-mining was even a thing. So, y'know... symptom, problem, potayto, potahto...

[WhitetailAni]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

Some places, like California actually charge you more for using energy during on-peak.

We switched to a kWh/hour plan, and this is very true, especially during the summer.

During the day? It can be as much as 50 cents/kWh compared to maybe 8 cents/kWh at night.

Reason for switching = we pay $3-5 more a month for charging the Nissan Leaf that my dad has.

Basically ~$4 a month on "gas" for his car.

[deserttan]

On 1/13/2021 at 7:12 PM, Brooksie359 said:

No I didn't arbitrarily ignore the importance of cryptocurrency. I do not believe it is important but I already addressed the case if someone does believe it is truly necessary. If it is something that is needed then make it so it doesn't use a ton of energy to produce. If cryptocurrency didn't waste a large amount of energy to mine most people wouldn't care. But the problem is that it uses a huge amount of energy and for no valid reason either. 

The electricity cost to make sure nobody counterfeits or double-spends a cryptocurrency is orders of magnitude smaller than the environmental pollution and cost to man and operate naval warships, air force planes, and tanks to ensure that nobody counterfeits or stops using the US Dollar.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, deserttan said:

The electricity cost to make sure nobody counterfeits or double-spends a cryptocurrency is orders of magnitude smaller than the environmental pollution and cost to man and operate naval warships, air force planes, and tanks to ensure that nobody counterfeits or stops using the US Dollar.

Apple vs orange......

[WkdPaul]

2 hours ago, deserttan said:

The electricity cost to make sure nobody counterfeits or double-spends a cryptocurrency is orders of magnitude smaller than the environmental pollution and cost to man and operate naval warships, air force planes, and tanks to ensure that nobody counterfeits or stops using the US Dollar.

This is pretty much 'whataboutism', the topic is about illegal mining farms potentially affecting the electrical grid in Iran, fuel consumption by the military has nothing to do with the topic.

 

So please, let's try to avoid logical fallacies and stay on-topic.

[Brooksie359]

6 hours ago, deserttan said:

The electricity cost to make sure nobody counterfeits or double-spends a cryptocurrency is orders of magnitude smaller than the environmental pollution and cost to man and operate naval warships, air force planes, and tanks to ensure that nobody counterfeits or stops using the US Dollar.

I can't tell if you are being seriousor not because that comparison is ridiculous. The energy spent by the US military is primarily for defense not for stopping counterfeit bills. Even if the US switched to the Euro or any other currency tomorrow it wouldn't stop the need for that defense. Sure some might argue that the US spends to much no defense but it has little to do with the currency being used. 

[Lii]

On 1/16/2021 at 11:03 PM, Brooksie359 said:

I can't tell if you are being seriousor not because that comparison is ridiculous. The energy spent by the US military is primarily for defense not for stopping counterfeit bills. Even if the US switched to the Euro or any other currency tomorrow it wouldn't stop the need for that defense. Sure some might argue that the US spends to much no defense but it has little to do with the currency being used. 

dunno what's about this whole argument

but those are all different personal interest

I don't think that any of those is objectively superior by some type of scale

 

also not, it has a lot to do with the currency, in the international market usds are pretty much dominant, by so the us pretty much has a good control over whatever thing, but those are politics stuff, so better avoiding those (but I'm not so sure if I actually understood you or not, I might have misunderstood you)

 

anyway how did they actually comprove that it was due to mining?

 

also why the heck are they burning even more heavy stuff, cannot they put more renewables stuff? it's like saying, hey we have a problem, the problem is not caused by us but by someone else