Microsoft Surface Event

[Deli]

18 minutes ago, Exprima said:

I work for Microsoft and now that NDA has lifted y'all can ask me questions and I'll answer to the best of my abilities

Regarding to the AMD CPUs. Are they based on 12nm Zen+? Is there a new 6 cores SKU from AMD? Thanks.

[cori_i]

6 minutes ago, Exprima said:

You can charge with it, but it's not advertised because USB-C chargers come in all shapes and sizes. The recommended USB-C charger should be capable of outputting at least 65w otherwise you risk damaging the battery

Nice, finally, thank you!

[RedRound2]

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Intel is charging too much, most likely. 

They'll include it when it will be USB 4 will be standard and implemented by the CPU chipset.

While Thunderbolt is free now, it is really only "free" you need to certify it, and Intel asks too much for it. Sure you can say that the Surface line is not budget class system, and for the price it should have it... but seeing how Microsoft now has AMD CPU and a custom one (in partnership with Qualcomm), and Microsoft never used Intel wireless cards, it may suggest that Microsoft and Intel relationship is not strong. Maybe it has to do with Intel crappy drivers hurting Windows image over many years or their ridiculous pricing, blocking innovation from being released, or who knows.

So how is all the other companies able to afford the certification fee except microsoft (and MS being bigger than all), if you say that Intel is asking too much for it? That's no excuse. Second, only microsoft again seems to have all these driver issues despite having full access to the Windows code. Also, all these are assumptions and we don't have any evidences for any of these things, so as far as I see Microsoft hardware team is just dumb. 

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I don't recall them saying this.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/9/15587042/microsoft-surface-laptop-ports-usb-c

To specifically quote

Quote

Kyriacou points out many of the issues anybody who’s used USB-C has run into. “What happened with USB-C is the cables look identical, but they start to have vastly different capabilities. So even someone in the know, confusion starts to set in,” he argues. Some cables support 3 amps, some 5, some Thunderbolt, some not.

Maybe I paraphrased but it's the same thing. And in order to solve that you put in the one with the biggest pipeline. Did I mention that Microsoft hardware engineers seem to be dumb.

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I do recall saying that there isn't any Type-C device to with it, and you need adapters. And, at the time, it was pretty much true. USB Type-C Flash drive just recently came out, and beside that, you had nothing. The rest was really Thunderbolt using the connector (external graphics or other PCIe cards), and that has noticeable performance drop, due to lack of bandwidth. It also been a long time since a new version of it. Is Intel keeping it to themselves and will only release it when they feel like it? Or Intel stopped working on it?

USB flash drives were out from Sandisk a long while back. All peripherals will only move to USB C completely if most hardware has the port. And microsoft wasn't giving a good example back then. USB C also carries Displayport, power delivery and it's an extremely versatile port, even without Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt gives access to PCIe which is great for future expansions.

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Are you really going to cash out on a external GPU enclosure (expensive) and a dedicated GPU knowing you'll have a nice performance drop due to bottleneck?

There's a lot of cheap enclosure you can get. Afterall all you need is a metal casing and power supply. Second, it's not only GPUs you can connect any PCIe cards to it, including high speed storage servers. Third, daisy chain capability will allow for a single cable solution, which is a techies paradise. Imagine connecting your laptop and propping it up on a stand with a single thunderbolt port and all of a sudden, you have your external monitor and peripherals connected, while your laptop also charges. You can do that with a MacBook for years now. Hence, you should be able to do that with a surface. Again, you're making silly excuses for their hardware team's lack of resolute and common sense.

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

They did in the past, and that failed miserably. See Windows RT and Windows 10 IoT. Now, it is full Windows 10 with Win32 support and x86 translation layer for x86 programs. Only soft-launch devices where ever released by OEMs (limited time and quantity devices, sold on select (mainly US only) market, online only, and high price). This is because, Microsoft and OEMs was seeking feedback from, essentially, a test market, and waiting for, at the very least web browsers to run native on it without the translator layer for speedy experience (So far we have: Chrome, Chromium, Firefox), and VLC joined officially. It is clear that Microsoft saw that the ARM chip of the time, while fast, needed to be faster to reduce the impact in performance drop in running x86 programs on the system.

Do we have any performance number on this? It's microsoft afterall and they have a very colourful history of botching up software so I really doubt their emulation layer or whatever it is going to work. 

[RedRound2]

15 minutes ago, Exprima said:

I work for Microsoft and now that NDA has lifted y'all can ask me questions and I'll answer to the best of my abilities

Why is there no Thunderbolt 3? Trick question and you probably can't answer, but still worth a shot

17 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

i'll give it to MS this time: it's great to see someone in the industry that actually thinks different 

What did they even do? Im struggling to understand this, and the various youtube commenters who keep applauding Microsoft? For a type C port? Spec bump? What? 86th revival of Windows RT? Made a follow up earbuds to Airpods, gear buds, echo whatever, a million chinese clones?

 

They showed two concept devices and that has zero to none meaning at all in the end.

Wonder what this thread, or even you, would say if this was ever an Apple announcement? Oh boy, let's not even go there

[TechyBen]

2 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Why is there no Thunderbolt 3? Trick question and you probably can't answer, but still worth a shot

What did they even do? Im struggling to understand this, and the various youtube commenters who keep applauding Microsoft? For a type C port? Spec bump? What? 86th revival of Windows RT?

 

 They showed two concept devices and that has zero to none meaning at all in the end.

Power consumption, temps (some TB3 chips/throughput gets hot)?

[melete]

2 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

What did they even do? Im struggling to understand this, and the various youtube commenters who keep applauding Microsoft? For a type C port? Spec bump? What? 86th revival of Windows RT?

 

 They showed two concept devices and that has zero to none meaning at all in the end.

The repairability of that Surface Laptop is pretty cool. The industry has moved away from that, so seeing a user friendly design for a change is nice. 

[RedRound2]

3 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Power consumption, temps (some TB3 chips/throughput gets hot)?

And this doesn't magically affect any other laptops? Any sources for this claim? The MacBook Air is very thin and it has two TB3 ports. And TB3 chip is integrated into 10th gen intel processors i believe, so that shouldn't be an issue

2 minutes ago, melete said:

The repairability of that Surface Laptop is pretty cool. The industry has moved away from that, so seeing a user friendly design for a change is nice. 

Okay, that's one plus point. I will agree with you there

[porina]

16 minutes ago, Exprima said:

The recommended USB-C charger should be capable of outputting at least 65w otherwise you risk damaging the battery

Unless whoever designed that part was negligent, there should be no way for the battery to get damaged from a lower power charger. It either doesn't charge at all, or charges slower.

[GoodBytes]

Just now, RedRound2 said:

So how is all the other companies able to afford the certification fee except microsoft (and MS being bigger than all), if you say that Intel is asking too much for it? That's no excuse.

It has nothing to do with affordable or not. It is a choice that Microsoft is making. Microsoft feel it should either be free and open or lower price. That is all.

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

Second, only microsoft again seems to have all these driver issues despite having full access to the Windows code.

What driver issue? It has noting to do with drivers. In order to be able to use Thunderbolt, you need Intel to certify the device. It is a licensing cost. Nothing more.

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

Also, all these are assumptions and we don't have any evidences for any of these things, so as far as I see Microsoft hardware team is just dumb. 

By saying that "they are dumb" you are making an assumption yourself. Microsoft doesn't need to publicly explain their decision making. It is a choice that they are making. It has reprecaution if they do, including eroding their relationship with Intel further. Doesn't mean you don't like something you need to burn you bridges and cut all ties.

 

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/9/15587042/microsoft-surface-laptop-ports-usb-c

To specifically quote

Maybe I paraphrased but it's the same thing. And in order to solve that you put in the one with the biggest pipeline. Did I mention that Microsoft hardware engineers seem to be dumb.

That is true statement. But that is all part of the cost of Thunderbolt / USB Type-C. (Support)

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

USB flash drives were out from Sandisk a long while back.

Not a wide selection at your local Best Buy or whatever at reasonable price. It is not worth implementing something to please a handful of users. Numbers shows that their Surface continue to sale well. So clearly, beside you, and a few, no one cared.

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

All peripherals will only move to USB C completely if most hardware has the port. And microsoft wasn't giving a good example back then.

Chicken and egg issue.

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

USB C also carries Displayport, power delivery and it's an extremely versatile port, even without Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt gives access to PCIe which is great for future expansions.

Yes. But it has a cost. The previous model was refresh. There is a cost of redesigning things.

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

There's a lot of cheap enclosure you can get.

Link please.

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

Afterall all you need is a metal casing and power supply. Second, it's not only GPUs you can connect any PCIe cards to it, including high speed storage servers.

High-speed storage server? Those are fine over USB 3

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

Third, daisy chain capability will allow for a single cable solution, which is a techies paradise.

Beside Dell (and I think LG) overpriced monitors at the time, I didn't see any monitor using this feature (price have dropped and more options are out today)

 

Just now, RedRound2 said:

Do we have any performance number on this? It's microsoft afterall and they have a very colourful history of botching up software so I really doubt their emulation layer or whatever it is going to work. 

Their emulation layer works great. Look it up.

 

[suicidalfranco]

10 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

They showed two concept devices and that has zero to none meaning at all in the end.

Wonder what this thread, or even you, would say if this was ever an Apple announcement? Oh boy, let's not even go there

that will go on sale in 2020

Given i've always hated everything coming out of MS till this day (ask anyone of the LTTForum MS defence force members), unlike you i'm capable of giving credit where credit is due. And guess what? Those two "concepts" is literally MS thinking out of the box for once, which s anice change of pace over simply going for the safe bet 

 

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Intel is charging too much, most likely. 

They'll include it when it will be USB 4 will be standard and implemented by the CPU chipset.

While Thunderbolt is free now, it is really only "free" you need to certify it, and Intel asks too much for it. Sure you can say that the Surface line is not budget class system, and for the price it should have it... but seeing how Microsoft now has AMD CPU and a custom one (in partnership with Qualcomm), and Microsoft never used Intel wireless cards, it may suggest that Microsoft and Intel relationship is not strong. Maybe it has to do with Intel crappy drivers hurting Windows image over many years or their ridiculous pricing, blocking innovation from being released, or who knows.

While Thunderbolt would be nice, it would add to the cost of the laptop, and IMO having USB3 and a type A port is fine. I'm the most excited for the Surface laptop 3,with the custom AMD cpu,and very nice to see it's actually repairable.

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Are you really going to cash out on a external GPU enclosure (expensive) and a dedicated GPU knowing you'll have a nice performance drop due to bottleneck?

It seems like most people complaining there isn't a Thunderbolt port just want to use an external GPU dock and make the surface into a gaming laptop, it isn't worth the loss in performance to me.

[Exprima]

59 minutes ago, Deli said:

Regarding to the AMD CPUs. Are they based on 12nm Zen+? Is there a new 6 cores SKU from AMD? Thanks.

https://www.amd.com/en/processors/ryzen-surface-edition

 

Figured it's easier to share this link than explain everything. The custom chips are based on the Zen+ architecture but extra added graphics cores for better performance.

 

47 minutes ago, porina said:

Unless whoever designed that part was negligent, there should be no way for the battery to get damaged from a lower power charger. It either doesn't charge at all, or charges slower.

It will charge slower.

 

As for everyone asking about the lack of TB3: the answer we got was that research showed very few people actually take advantage of TB3's bandwidth to make it worth the licensing costs. Also I'm assuming it's to keep in in line with branding now that we have AMD and Qualcomm devices.

 

[TechyBen]

1 hour ago, Exprima said:

https://www.amd.com/en/processors/ryzen-surface-edition

 

Figured it's easier to share this link than explain everything. The custom chips are based on the Zen+ architecture but extra added graphics cores for better performance.

 

It will charge slower.

 

As for everyone asking about the lack of TB3: the answer we got was that research showed very few people actually take advantage of TB3's bandwidth to make it worth the licensing costs. Also I'm assuming it's to keep in in line with branding now that we have AMD and Qualcomm devices.

 

I was under the impression the licensing costs from TB3 was dropped? Or is it just brought in line with other tech? https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/24/intel_thunderbolt_3forall/

[Exprima]

7 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

I was under the impression the licensing costs from TB3 was dropped? Or is it just brought in line with other tech? https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/24/intel_thunderbolt_3forall/

I don't really work on that side of things I'm just relaying what I was told, I'm assuming it's mostly to keep the features uniform across devices

[Arika]

Did they finally get rid of the Alacantra finish on the surface laptop? 

[Exprima]

2 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Did they finally get rid of the Alacantra finish on the surface laptop? 

For the 13" Cobalt and Platinum will still come with the Alcantara keyboard decks, while Sandstone and Black will have machined aluminum decks. For the 15" both Platinum and Black will have machined aluminum decks.

[Sharp_3yE]

11 hours ago, cori_i said:

The USB C thing is the one that triggers me the the most. I'm surprised Microsoft didn't learn anything from the win10 mobile, windows RT and Windows S experience which is that usually crippled versions of windows don't really have a place in the market, like the whole point of running windows is the x86 library. Don't get me wrong I think the pro X does look pretty sweet, but if I wanted a crippled tablet, I would just buy an Ipad. Also not looking forward to see how buggy Win10 on an ARM chip will be. The Surface Laptop (for a different type of consumer that is not me) actually looks great. I can live with those bezels, the fact that they made it easier to service is a breath of fresh air in this 'pro, expensive and sleek looking' market. I'm actually moderate excited of those AMD chip on the 15 inch version. Great competitor against the Apple alternative and their disgraceful keyboards. Still pissed that it doesn't look like you can charge them with usb c (like NO ONE on the internet seems able to answer that)

Well, windows 10 on arm actually won't be crippled, at least not as much. It can run x86, but they will be in a container. Almost like emulation without a separate specific app. IDK if it has to be through the Windows Store or if you can download an app from anywhere though. I do not know the answer to that.

 

9 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Why is there no Thunderbolt 3? Trick question and you probably can't answer, but still worth a shot

What did they even do? Im struggling to understand this, and the various youtube commenters who keep applauding Microsoft? For a type C port? Spec bump? What? 86th revival of Windows RT? Made a follow up earbuds to Airpods, gear buds, echo whatever, a million chinese clones?

 

They showed two concept devices and that has zero to none meaning at all in the end.

Wonder what this thread, or even you, would say if this was ever an Apple announcement? Oh boy, let's not even go there

Thunderbolt is really only useful for certain specific things. Vast majority of people do not need thunderbolt. Not to mention only specific things could really use the power of Thunderbolt cuz most things don't have it yet. It's extra cost. If you need Thunderbolt there's other devices. Most likely people will not. It's only useful if you're a power user. USB C can do a lot on it's own anyway.

 

New laptop that apparently is easily repairable.

 

The Microsoft Surface Earbuds have a touch surface. This allows for a few actions. Play, pause, next/previous track, change volume, even open apps through the earbuds. Plus, they said 8 hours of battery life. That's pretty dang high. 24 hours with the case.

They also work with Microsoft Powerpoint. During a presentation you can gesture on the touch surface to go to the nest slide AND even while you talk, the earbuds will use it's mic to then dictate the words you're saying onto the powerpoint. It will even translate different languages onto the powerpoint. So you can talk in english and it will write in spanish/japanese/what ever on the powerpoint thanks to these earbuds. 

 

There is a new pen that is good for the Surface Neo and Surface Pro X.

 

There are a LOT of people who like the small tablet form factor. I've seen a guy in an office have a ipad mini for doing work with. People like how you can carry it, write on it. It's like a note pad. Easier on the go.

Surface Neo is a dual screen device that folds so it is easier to carry around. More screen real estate then just having 1 small screen. A lot of people will love that. Plus, they have a real keyboard that can attach to the device if needed. It's the most practical foldable device. Microsoft will push forward this and their partners will love being able to create new devices with Microsofts support. 

 

Surface Duo. A duo screen pocketable, device. A smart phone. Probably the only practical dual screen phone as of now. It's cool. The start of dual screen devices.

 

Surface pro 7 is basically updates. 

 

Surface Pro X has some really cool features. The new pen that is easier to bring with this surface and wirelessly charges. The device has LTE connectivity, and you can change the SSD. Slimmer and the bezels are less. Can't use as many apps since it does use an arm type chip that qualcomm and microsoft got together to make. But it should be plenty powerful, apparently as powerful as other laptops. This also means longer battery life and no need for a fan. This should push developers to get their apps available for arm devices. That simply means getting them to run in a container. You have to start somewhere. 

 

[Nowak]

ngl, I kinda want a surface laptop 3

[IAmAndre]

This is what launch events should be like. I don't remember the last time I had this wow effect when seeing a product for the first time. Surface X is just a much better implementation than any Apple "Pro" devices ever released.

[GoodBytes]

So it looks like the dual screen phone Surface Duo, will run Android

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, IAmAndre said:

This is what launch events should be like. I don't remember the last time I had this wow effect when seeing a product for the first time. Surface X is just a much better implementation than any Apple "Pro" devices ever released.

I agree it seems like a better device for pro users than the products Apple threw the "Pro" name onto. A device intended for business use should have the option for LTE, and the pen that fits into the keyboard is really nice. I have my doubts because it's ARM, but apparently the ARM chip can run up to 3Ghz, and it has a custom GPU.

[bcredeur97]

Surface laptop 3 is pretty nice. I've never been a fan of the surface (pro) tablets honestly... just prefer a laptop form factor.

I think the Neo is cool.. but that's about it. I don't think it'll be too popular. Which is a shame because it looks like they actually worked hard on it making an OS for it and such.. I guess we'll see.

Same with the Duo.

Overall to me at least, they released a laptop with some gimmicky other products.

[adman29]

@Exprima the weird little ARM Chip based surface, can it run full windows apps, or are we going through another Surface RT period?

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

 

It seems like most people complaining there isn't a Thunderbolt port just want to use an external GPU dock and make the surface into a gaming laptop, it isn't worth the loss in performance to me.

 

you know a product is actually really quite good when the only issue people can find is a  niche end use that likely has other way better options than buying a surface or anything even remotely in the same product category.

 

 

 

 

[bcredeur97]

1 minute ago, adman29 said:

@Exprima the weird little ARM Chip based surface, can it run full windows apps, or are we going through another Surface RT period?

he'll give the better answer but I'm sure it'll have x86 emulation like some current ARM based devices that run Windows 10.

it's of course just slower/not as efficient. But they should work.