Microsoft Surface Event

[GoodBytes]

2 minutes ago, adman29 said:

@Exprima the weird little ARM Chip based surface, can it run full windows apps, or are we going through another Surface RT period?

It Windows 10 for ARM. That is the full version of Windows 10, compiled for ARM processors. Not a cut down version.

The OS also include x86 translation layer to allow you to run Intel x86 programs on it.

 

The results?

The same experience as you have now in terms of what you can do.

As for performance, you'll get excellent performance when running native ARM version of apps. Chrome, Chromium, the new Edge web browser that is coming up, Firefox, VLC, and of course Office, are coming out or already have released a native ARM version of their software for Windows 10. Running x86 programs will get a performance hit due to the translation layer being active. The impact is notable, but not crazy. It should cause no problem for most programs. The impact will be more visible on programs that pushes the processor (gaming, benchmark software, software with "large" projects under AutoCAD, PhotoShop, After Effects, etc... but probably you would must likely not look at the Surface Pro in any case).

 

Now as the device with the custom processor is not out we don't know what performance we will actually get and what would be the performance of x86 programs. So we have to wait and see.

 

Caviats?

Yes, despite teh CPU being 64-bit (ARM64), the translation layer for x86 programs is, so far, only capable of translating x86 (32-bit) programs. It cannot do 64-bit programs (x86-64). Maybe it will come in a future version of Windows 10, but so far, today, this is what we have. Considering that nearly all programs are availible in 32-bit, beside some big title games, it should not be much of an issue. You may have that game that should run on it in terms of specs, or software but is only 64-bit, but that is all. See what you see, and see if it impact you, if you are intrested in this device.

[rawrdaysgoby]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 

you know a product is actually really quite good when the only issue people can find is a  niche end use that likely has other way better options than buying a surface or anything even remotely in the same product category.

 

 

 

 

Not really there isn't much change at all compared to last year's model and last year model is basically a regular thin laptop... At a premium.  

[Nowak]

3 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

So it looks like the dual screen phone Surface Duo, will run Android

Well what else is it gonna run, Windows 10 Mobile?  

[Sharp_3yE]

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I agree it seems like a better device for pro users than the products Apple threw the "Pro" name onto. A device intended for business use should have the option for LTE, and the pen that fits into the keyboard is really nice. I have my doubts because it's ARM, but apparently the ARM chip can run up to 3Ghz, and it has a custom GPU.

LOL remember when apple did this?

 

Then they copied surface and put a flat edge that was magnetic. Apple pencil performs well but Microsoft has been ahead on innovation and style, at least when it comes to a stylus. 

 

[williamcll]

Gotta be interesting to see benchmarks between the ARM, intel and AMD chips.

[Exprima]

3 hours ago, adman29 said:

@Exprima the weird little ARM Chip based surface, can it run full windows apps, or are we going through another Surface RT period?

it's meant to be able to run full windows apps as there will be an emulation layer thru windows for x86 and x64 programs, but it won't be flawless so there will still be some programs that won't run on it

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, rawrdaysgoby said:

Not really there isn't much change at all compared to last year's model and last year model is basically a regular thin laptop... At a premium.  

not really what?   It doesn't matter if the hardware is identical to last years model, if the only issues people can dig up are largely moot then the same reasoning still applies.

[LeSheen]

Looks like no surface go refresh. Was hoping for one. Looking for a fun cheap but not completely useless secondary/ 3th device. That could be used as an extra monitor for windows as well.

[LAwLz]

The Surface laptop seems nice. I just hope it doesn't come with Windows S like the old surface laptop. Disappointed that you only get 128GB of storage on the 1000 dollar model though. I think 256 should be the minimum at that price range.

 

 

I still don't get the appeal of the Surface Pro. We have several clients who use them and I have never seen anyone use it as a tablet. They all use it with the keyboard, and at that point why not just get a laptop instead?
Also, let's hope they have improved the wireless chip and antennas, because that has been ass in all Surface Pro models.

 

 

The earbuds are ugly and really expensive. I don't see them winning over many Galaxy Bud and AirPods users.

 

 

For those wondering, the Surface Pro X SoC is a modified version of the 8CX. It would have been interesting if the comparison had been between the 8CX and SQ1, rather than SQ1 and some older Intel chip.
By the way, the 855 we have in phones has 7 teraOPS for AI performance, so this is only ~30% faster than this year's phones. The GPU and CPU seems really beasty though, but not really that big of a difference compared to the regular 8CX.
But Windows on ARM seems really shitty so I'll pass on this device.

 

Oh boy... Windows 10X. Yet another version of Windows. How many do we have now?
Seems like a cool concept though. Will be interesting to see how well it works out in real life, with battery life and usability. My biggest problem with Windows on tablets is and has always been that there are very few programs on it that works well with a touch screen. The programs I typically use on Windows requires a good mouse/trackpad and keyboard. And if I want to just do some casual web browsing or video watching then my top priorities is weight, which this probably fails at.

 

Really cool that the Surface Duo runs Android apps. That will solve one of the biggest problems I have with Windows tablets, like I said earlier.
I hope that this device changes a lot before release though, because in its current form I think it's a pretty useless device. If I get a foldable device I want it because it can act like a phone and tablet hybrid. The Surface Duo will not be able to replace my phone for a wide varity of reasons, including but not limited to things like completely lacking any type of rear camera. It's also a very big device which seems more like a small tablet rather than a phone even when folded together.

[Tolrag]

46 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

The Surface laptop seems nice. I just hope it doesn't come with Windows S like the old surface laptop.

 

[RedRound2]

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

It has nothing to do with affordable or not. It is a choice that Microsoft is making. Microsoft feel it should either be free and open or lower price. That is all.

A choice that harms consumers? Intel and USB forum has already announced that the TB3 protocol is going to be free and available for everyone. So, what’s the point in protesting for something that has already happened? I can come up with a much better reason that that (more on that below)

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

What driver issue? It has noting to do with drivers. In order to be able to use Thunderbolt, you need Intel to certify the device. It is a licensing cost. Nothing more.

Didn’t you see at what context that reply was to? You told me that Intel and Microsoft isn’t having a good relationship due to Intel driver issues on surface products that damaged the brand’s name. I would say it’s Microsoft’s fault because no other laptop manufacture had this problem and Microsoft also has the advantage of having full access to the windows code. Add to that of Microsoft long and colourful history of making terrible and buggy software, it’s really not a surprise who’s fault it is

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

By saying that "they are dumb" you are making an assumption yourself. Microsoft doesn't need to publicly explain their decision making. It is a choice that they are making. It has reprecaution if they do, including eroding their relationship with Intel further. Doesn't mean you don't like something you need to burn you bridges and cut all ties.

I’m not making an assumption lol. I’m making a conclusion based on hard facts. There’s no assumption here, just derivation. I think you have the terms all messed up. Really, just stop justifying Microsoft, dude. I have respect for you because you helped me change my windows installation from BIOS to UEFI years ago. So please stop.

 

Again I’ll write the most probable explanation and how dumb it is below.

 

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Not a wide selection at your local Best Buy or whatever at reasonable price. It is not worth implementing something to please a handful of users. Numbers shows that their Surface continue to sale well. So clearly, beside you, and a few, no one cared.

SANDISK thumb drives have always been cheap. And it’s been available for quite a while, ever since type c phones started showing up (which was like 3-4 years ago)

 

Sources on amazing surface sales? I could say MacBooks have been flying off the shelves and it was because of generous amount of thunderbolt and versatility.

 

And when I buy a laptop as expensive as the surface, I will keep it for at least a good 6-7 years. And I expect it to hold up well during that time. General public isn’t educated as us regarding the potential of TB3/USB4, so they may not know. And microsoft isn’t helping as most laptops have thunderbolt enabled type c while Microsoft’s type C seemed to a useless port that doesn’t seem to work. Basically shooting themselves on the foot with general consumers.

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Chicken and egg issue.

Lol No. Laptops and devices have the luxury of having multiple ports, both normal and C port. Accessories not really unless they want to all start providing two SKUs which isn’t feasible. And I’m not asking for 3-4 thunderbolt ports. Just one, at least. So, it’s Microsoft’s responsibility to implement a feature that has been industry standard for quite a while now.

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Yes. But it has a cost. The previous model was refresh. There is a cost of redesigning things.

What are you even talking about?

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Link please.

Chinese brands. You can easily get one for $150 dollars. And it’s going to get cheaper as it becomes more ubiquitous 

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

High-speed storage server? Those are fine over USB 3

Do you think an SSD storage server is fine with USB 3? USB 3 tops up at 5 Gbps, while SSDs from the dawn of time had saturated 6Gbps SATA. And do you forget about daisy chaining and not saturating the entire thunderbolt cable allowing for multiple transfer rates, say a 10 GbE, storage, PCIe card, power, and display. I could have one enclosure that does this all. And if you’re going to say it’s not going to happen within the next few years, you’re kidding yourself.

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Beside Dell (and I think LG) overpriced monitors at the time, I didn't see any monitor using this feature (price have dropped and more options are out today)

What about now? There are more options and prices have dropped. Without thunderbolt you can’t connect multiple devices with a single cable

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Their emulation layer works great. Look it up.

Said microsoft. Sure I blind heatedly believe them. Give me numbers? And besides someone was saying that apps had to still be designed for the device and so far there’s chrome, VLC and two other apps. 

[RedRound2]

4 hours ago, Sharp_3yE said:

LOL remember when apple did this?

 

Then they copied surface and put a flat edge that was magnetic. Apple pencil performs well but Microsoft has been ahead on innovation and style, at least when it comes to a stylus. 

 

If you want to play the game of firsts, then the Apple Pencil was the first one to add ire less charging before this new flat pen thing Microsoft showed off. And, Apple Pencil has also been praised among artists more compared to surface pen. Show me articles that point to otherwise, because the last claim was made up.

12 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

that will go on sale in 2020

Given i've always hated everything coming out of MS till this day (ask anyone of the LTTForum MS defence force members), unlike you i'm capable of giving credit where credit is due. And guess what? Those two "concepts" is literally MS thinking out of the box for once, which s anice change of pace over simply going for the safe bet 

 

I do give credit where credit is due. Microsoft crippling their own products doesn’t bring me happiness. It brings frustration. Duo and Neo are something that seems weird. The smaller one, seems to big to be a phone and The app support will be terrible (example, note series phones have been selling well for past few years, but how many apps take advantage of the S pen?)

 

And who want’s to multitask on their phone, apart from like one or two cases I can think of, regularly enough to justify carrying such a product all the time? And they dont even seem to have a camera. It’s far from reality as of now.

 

And the durability. The connection between the two halves is thinner than a human hair, so I cant imagine the wire staying long especially when it can do 360 degrees.

10 hours ago, Sharp_3yE said:

Thunderbolt is really only useful for certain specific things. Vast majority of people do not need thunderbolt. Not to mention only specific things could really use the power of Thunderbolt cuz most things don't have it yet. It's extra cost. If you need Thunderbolt there's other devices. Most likely people will not. It's only useful if you're a power user. USB C can do a lot on it's own anyway.

Thunderbolt is also backward compatible. You make it sound like it’s a sacrifice and the cost of the device doesn’t justify it. Not specific, single port docking is only possible with thunderbolt. High performance peripherals, like high speed storage, 10Gbps Ethernet, external GPUs all need thunderbolt. And use cases are going to multiply in the coming years for the duration of the life of this laptop.

10 hours ago, Sharp_3yE said:

The Microsoft Surface Earbuds have a touch surface. This allows for a few actions. Play, pause, next/previous track, change volume, even open apps through the earbuds. Plus, they said 8 hours of battery life. That's pretty dang high. 24 hours with the case.

I’m never going to listen to music for 5 hours or 8 hour straight to earbud battery life wont make any difference, if the combined total is always 24 hour. 

10 hours ago, Sharp_3yE said:

They also work with Microsoft Powerpoint. During a presentation you can gesture on the touch surface to go to the nest slide AND even while you talk, the earbuds will use it's mic to then dictate the words you're saying onto the powerpoint. It will even translate different languages onto the powerpoint. So you can talk in english and it will write in spanish/japanese/what ever on the powerpoint thanks to these earbuds. 

That’s all theoretical. Their skype translation was terrible when i tried it. I doubt microsoft can do anything special here. And that is an extremely niche case scenario that far far less people will use than thunderbolt. So again nothing special about this product. 

10 hours ago, Sharp_3yE said:

There is a new pen that is good for the Surface Neo and Surface Pro X.

 

There are a LOT of people who like the small tablet form factor. I've seen a guy in an office have a ipad mini for doing work with. People like how you can carry it, write on it. It's like a note pad. Easier on the go.

Surface Neo is a dual screen device that folds so it is easier to carry around. More screen real estate then just having 1 small screen. A lot of people will love that. Plus, they have a real keyboard that can attach to the device if needed. It's the most practical foldable device. Microsoft will push forward this and their partners will love being able to create new devices with Microsofts support. 

 

Surface Duo. A duo screen pocketable, device. A smart phone. Probably the only practical dual screen phone as of now. It's cool. The start of dual screen devices.

COncept devices. App support on android will me jackshit. Microsoft wasn’t able to make ARM on windows a thing because no developers cared. Do you really think all developers are excited to work on changing their code for two devices few hundred people will buy? No. Plus we have no info on durability, especially the wires interconnecting the two halves. 

 

Ill agree that it’s something different. But there’s a lot more challenges for it to be a success than most people on this forum seems to think. 

10 hours ago, Sharp_3yE said:

Surface pro 7 is basically updates. 

And looks the same for past 4 years with those huge bezels. Even they themselves have a product with thinner bezels. That’s just being lazy

10 hours ago, Sharp_3yE said:

Surface Pro X has some really cool features. The new pen that is easier to bring with this surface and wirelessly charges. The device has LTE connectivity, and you can change the SSD. Slimmer and the bezels are less. Can't use as many apps since it does use an arm type chip that qualcomm and microsoft got together to make. But it should be plenty powerful, apparently as powerful as other laptops. This also means longer battery life and no need for a fan. This should push developers to get their apps available for arm devices. That simply means getting them to run in a container. You have to start somewhere. 

Yeah, you have to start somewhere and this is the 23rd time microsoft has been trying to change windows to ARM. It never worked before, and i still think it wont work.

7 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I agree it seems like a better device for pro users than the products Apple threw the "Pro" name onto. A device intended for business use should have the option for LTE, and the pen that fits into the keyboard is really nice. I have my doubts because it's ARM, but apparently the ARM chip can run up to 3Ghz, and it has a custom GPU.

Who actually pays for a separate data plan on their laptop and their phone? That is not pro, that is you being filthy rich, being too lazy to turn on your mobile hotspot. Fine, it’s okay to have an LTE option, but to use that some holy grail selling feature, is stupid. And you like harping on apple, so anything is fine right. Apple held your parents at gun point so they should never get credit for anything new they bring and we all praise other companies for doing the same thing or even less.

 

Sure Microsoft SQ1 is going to run all apps flawlessly without any issues after emulation. Sure.

[Deli]

I was hoping the AMD equipped Surface 3 laptop will be less expensive than Intel's version.

[Tolrag]

8 minutes ago, Deli said:

I was hoping the AMD equipped Surface 3 laptop will be less expensive than Intel's version.

Maybe it would be the case if both were 13" models. It's possible that the 15" would be even more expensive with an Intel chip. We would have to know the details of the costs... 

[Deli]

2 minutes ago, Tolrag said:

Maybe it would be the case if both were 13" models. It's possible that the 15" would be even more expensive with an Intel chip. We would have to know the details of the costs... 

Seems the 15' will start at $1199 for both AMD and Intel.

 

I have the Asus Zenbook 14 with AMD 3500U. Which is ~€100 cheaper than with Intel 8265U.

[TechyBen]

14 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

And this doesn't magically affect any other laptops? Any sources for this claim? The MacBook Air is very thin and it has two TB3 ports. And TB3 chip is integrated into 10th gen intel processors i believe, so that shouldn't be an issue

Okay, that's one plus point. I will agree with you there

It's not a tablet. The surface is.

[TechyBen]

1 hour ago, RedRound2 said:

If you want to play the game of firsts, then the Apple Pencil was the first one to add ire less charging before this new flat pen thing Microsoft showed off.

And Wacom don;t even need charging. GET OUT:

[LAwLz]

20 minutes ago, Deli said:

Seems the 15' will start at $1199 for both AMD and Intel.

 

I have the Asus Zenbook 14 with AMD 3500U. Which is ~€100 cheaper than with Intel 8265U.

Might be a regional thing, or some other difference (like storage, battery size, etc).

Here in Sweden, the AMD model is more expensive than the Intel model.

https://classic.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=5085157

https://classic.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=5183345

 

It will be interesting to see how the Intel and AMD Surface 3 laptops stack up.

The Intel one seems to have the edge because of LPDDR4X RAM (3733Mhz vs 2400MHz( and it also has WiFi 6 rather than WiFi 5 (built into the Intel CPU).

I really hope someone benchmarks both versions so that we can get a good comparison to see performance and power consumption of the two chips in an otherwise identical package.

[Deli]

12 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Might be a regional thing, or some other difference (like storage, battery size, etc).

Here in Sweden, the AMD model is more expensive than the Intel model.

https://classic.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=5085157

https://classic.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=5183345

 

It will be interesting to see how the Intel and AMD Surface 3 laptops stack up.

The Intel one seems to have the edge because of LPDDR4X RAM (3733Mhz vs 2400MHz( and it also has WiFi 6 rather than WiFi 5 (built into the Intel CPU).

I really hope someone benchmarks both versions so that we can get a good comparison to see performance and power consumption of the two chips in an otherwise identical package.

Could be. I only looked for prices inside the Netherlands. The UX431 with 8265u is €799, and the UM431 with AMD 3500u is €699. Both equipped the 8GB RAM and 512GB NVMe drive, though only using PCIe x2.

[Tolrag]

1 hour ago, Deli said:

Seems the 15' will start at $1199 for both AMD and Intel.

 

I have the Asus Zenbook 14 with AMD 3500U. Which is ~€100 cheaper than with Intel 8265U.

No. It is AMD for the 15" and Intel for the 13.5". That's why I said that AMD could be cheaper and compensate for the price difference (a bit) 

[Deli]

5 minutes ago, Tolrag said:

No. It is AMD for the 15" and Intel for the 13.5". That's why I said that AMD could be cheaper and compensate for the price difference (a bit) 

 

The Surface 3 laptop 15" will have both Intel and AMD variants.

[mrthuvi]

The buds look interesting.

[Doobeedoo]

Well great for USB-C finally. The 15" Surface laptop is looking nice. 

As for those dual display devices, I don't know really, nothing special to me, also different type of OS just for that? 

[GoldenLag]

35 minutes ago, Deli said:

The Surface 3 laptop 15" will have both Intel and AMD variants.

where can you find this?

 

their pre-order page only has Ryzen for 15" and intel for 13". no mention of anything else. (edit: ive also seen no marketing stating the 15" will have intel options)

[Tolrag]

37 minutes ago, Deli said:

The Surface 3 laptop 15" will have both Intel and AMD variants.

I just quoted Microsoft's website.