Microsoft Surface Event

[Blademaster91]

6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I see nothing that indicates that the device is not working as intended or properly. You are just pointing out comparison 2 completely different devices. Might as well compare a rock with a plane.

I really don't see how it compares to an iPad, the Surface is going to be better for office work. I'm not surprised people are nitpicking because it's not an iPad, and well you can find a review that is gonna crap on a product, the Youtuber reviewing it seems to be biased towards Apple.

[Arika]

6 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

Here’s one which says it won’t dethrone Apple’s iPad anytime soon. 

"not as good as x" doesn't mean "this entire product is shit"

 

something can still be great but not the best. doesn't mean it's not something worth getting. otherwise you're saying everyone should only ever get the highest end device in any given category.

[RedRound2]

11 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

It has fanfare because this is something that people asked. Even back in Windows Phone days, when Nokia, (later) Microsoft released phones with killer features and camera, people said, numerous times, why doesn't it have an Android version. The excitement is that in the recent years, Microsoft has been able to deliver things that other manufacture fail to do. Is it perfect? No. No product is perfect. They all have issues. Yes, things tend to get better over time. So you have these 2 things coming together, so people are exited.

I dont see how Nokia team releasing something has anything to do with Microsoft. Also PureView 41 MP camera was popular before Microsoft acquired Nokia (and later ended up killing the company)

 

"The excitement is that in the recent years, Microsoft has been able to deliver things"

 

Deliver exactly what? Windows 10 is still a mess. Surface lineup has way too many issues and they've been using the same dated design for 4 generations now. Don't even have the common sense to adopt industry standards like TB3. Made various incarnations of Windows on ARM with RT, Windows S, Windows X, now Surface X and all of them were pretty much a failure (there doesn't seem to be anything different this time around also). Microsoft is one of those companies who just doesn't how to do things properly and the only reason they're alive is because of the way they captured the market very early on. In contrast, Apple needs to be on their toes with their products all the time and Google keeps bringing out new stuff all the time to stay ahead. Microsoft is only alive because of Windows (Even Amazon has taken over them in cloud services)

11 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

How is that a failure? It has excellent reviews. The only notable complaint the device has is the lack of ARM64 native programs... but you need an official launch of a device to even have developers to get it in their hands and be able to properly develop and test their ARM64 compiled version.

Umm, which reviews are you talking about? The one from mobileTechreview, austin evans, engadget, verge were all pretty terrible. And developed didn't need a device to get their hands on to compile ARM64, they could've done it long ago if they wanted (heck microsoft store is the example for that)

 

And its goddam too expensive for what little it has. You can easily buy literally any other laptop and get more use out of it that this overpriced piece of tech that offers nothing new

11 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

As we speak, Firefox, Edge Chromium (the New Edge), and Chrome has ARM64 version in the works which you can enjoy under early or late beta (depending on which software you are looking at). Adobe already announced that they are working on ARM64 version of all their CC suit of software including Photoshop, VLC has its fully featured desktop app already officially out. Microsoft already announced that they are well under way in working in a x86-64-bit emulator for Windows 10 on ARM (however, they inform that the performance impact will be greater than their x86 one). You need a starting point, and the Surface Pro X officialize this.

Nobody cares about ARM version of the browsers. It's the normal software that matters. VLC is not some kind of game changer to brag about (windows media player works fine) and Adobe word doesn't mean anything. They still haven't managed to fix the CC suite and they're heavily lagging behind full photoshop on iPad (and they do have a stronger relationship with Apple). So Adobe word, means absolute jackshit.

11 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I highly doubt that they expect this device to fly off the shelf. The only people that will get the Surface Pro X are "business people"/"office-warriors" if you want to call them that, who also doesn't mind first gen hardware (and also it doesn't affect them, as everything works fine for them on it), and developers, at least for now.

Umm no. This device has absolutely nothing for anyone to feel like "I need this". It offers nothing new while nuking old functionality. 32 bit softwares are slow as fuck (and battery also gets neutered), pretty much non existent arm apps (iPad Pro here is a much better choice). And as you said 64-bit will be even worse (and most apps these days are now 64bit)

11 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Excellent, it doesn't target you. Buy something else. Do you see me complain about Samsung Galaxy S10 phones on how they actually suck in my eyes? I am clearly in the minority. Guess what? I didn't buy it, I bought a phone that better suit my needs and I paid far less. Everyone is different, everyone value things differently. And they are people willing to spend money for fun (in their eyes) feature, including those live emoji that Apple and Samsung has.

So tell me the customers who would always want two screens on their phone? It gives a severely compromised smartphone experience and I think most people are content with the way smartphones are today. I mean basic stuff like checking whatsapp, social media, web browsing (that basically comprises 80% of phone use case) is a compromise on a large two screen heavy device.

[mr moose]

22 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

I dont see how Nokia team releasing something has anything to do with Microsoft.

Are you seriously pretending nokia had nothing to do with MS?  

 

[leadeater]

51 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Surface lineup has way too many issues and they've been using the same dated design for 4 generations now. Don't even have the common sense to adopt industry standards like TB3.

My workplace has been full of Surface Pros for years and people love them, and nobody has required TB3 who uses them. Things may look important, or appear as an oversight or something else might just look better by having more features but what happens way more often is that those things never get used or wanted by those that use the device. The most common sense is to not add things on to a device that won't get used, ticking spec boxes for the sake of it is not common sense.

 

You either fit the usage of a Surface Pro device or you don't, the people that don't here step up to an HP Spectre x360 because if you need more of a laptop device but still want a tablet mode for the few times you'd like it this suits better.

 

I personally think Chromebooks are utter stupid devices that belong in the garbage, or better never made and sold in the first place, but they sell by the truck loads. Are they bad devices? For me yea, terrible. But if I evaluated all devices on the success, suitability and purpose to the market on my own requirements or wants 99.99999%+ of devices would all be failures. I mean I don't buy laptops because to me they are nothing but a compromise.

[Arika]

1 hour ago, RedRound2 said:

Nobody cares about ARM version of the browsers. It's the normal software that matters. VLC is not some kind of game changer to brag about (windows media player works fine) and Adobe word doesn't mean anything. They still haven't managed to fix the CC suite and they're heavily lagging behind full photoshop on iPad (and they do have a stronger relationship with Apple). So Adobe word, means absolute jackshit.

...what is the "normal software" you're referring to. i would say a browser is a pretty massive requirement for any device these days, so they would need to be created to run on ARM

 

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Umm no. This device has absolutely nothing for anyone to feel like "I need this".

Good to know you speak for the entire population

 

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industry standards like TB3

except TB3 is not an industry standard, it's a nice to have, but it's is by no means a requirement

[mr moose]

19 minutes ago, Arika S said:

.

 

except TB3 is not an industry standard, it's a nice to have, but it's is by no means a requirement

Industry standards are things like USB A, 3.5mm Audio and SD card.   A pretty big requirement of many people.

[RedRound2]

23 hours ago, mr moose said:

Are you seriously pretending nokia had nothing to do with MS?  

Read the context! I was talking about their first PureView Phone. Nokia 808 PureView, the one that was praised for its camera at the time. Anything Nokia did after Microsoft didn't matter and they eventually died

22 hours ago, leadeater said:

My workplace has been full of Surface Pros for years and people love them, and nobody has required TB3 who uses them. Things may look important, or appear as an oversight or something else might just look better by having more features but what happens way more often is that those things never get used or wanted by those that use the device. The most common sense is to not add things on to a device that won't get used, ticking spec boxes for the sake of it is not common sense.

 

You either fit the usage of a Surface Pro device or you don't, the people that don't here step up to an HP Spectre x360 because if you need more of a laptop device but still want a tablet mode for the few times you'd like it this suits better.

 

I personally think Chromebooks are utter stupid devices that belong in the garbage, or better never made and sold in the first place, but they sell by the truck loads. Are they bad devices? For me yea, terrible. But if I evaluated all devices on the success, suitability and purpose to the market on my own requirements or wants 99.99999%+ of devices would all be failures. I mean I don't buy laptops because to me they are nothing but a compromise.

Chromebooks (a whole other set of devices) and enabling existing type C to also have thunderbolt 3 (while trading off pretty much nothing) is the biggest Apple and Oranges comparison you can ever make. I dont have any use for Linux, but do you see me dissing about Linux here? I know there are certain segments of people its immensely useful for.

 

My point was TB3, vastly expands the capability of the port. Its great for future proofing and any sort of expansion. Now if Apple was the only one and nobody else had TB3, like TB2 and prior, then it doesn't matter. BUT every other high end laptops have at least 1 TB3 port!! That's the issue. Just because you dont have a use case for now doesn't mean you will never have it. And if it was included, none of your current functionality will be robbed of.

 

Also, my point was Microsoft been using the same dated design for past 4 generations. Surface are notorious for their driver issues. They recycled the design and fixed nothing but you all still praise them. Level the playing field, because all I see on this forum is hate Apple as much as possible even if they do something new and great while praise everything else stupid other companies do. The general consumers seems to be much more sensible, because Apple is afterall the one having a much higher standing in hardware business than microsoft, just because they're objectively better in a lot of ways. 

22 hours ago, Arika S said:

...what is the "normal software" you're referring to. i would say a browser is a pretty massive requirement for any device these days, so they would need to be created to run on ARM

 

Good to know you speak for the entire population

 

except TB3 is not an industry standard, it's a nice to have, but it's is by no means a requirement

The Surface X would be a glorified web browsing machine. A 1500 we browsing machine. You can't run anything else on it and there are barely any ARM apps. You're much better of with an iPad Pro with its better screen and better Apple backed support for software and apps. But no, people think its a new dawn, just like they thought when Windows RT came out, WIndows S, WIndows on ARM project, and countless other variations of the same thing. It's analogous to Google's attempt at messaging app

21 hours ago, mr moose said:

Industry standards are things like USB A, 3.5mm Audio and SD card.   A pretty big requirement of many people.

And the TB3 supports all of them. It's an extremely versatile port. You want it to become ethernet, you can. You want to connect external GPU down the line for gaming or productivity, you can. I'm not saying Microsoft should go Apple's route and TB3 all things. Just make the type c port, that they were late to anyway TB3 enabled. And you've got to be joking if TB3 (going to be renamed to USB4), is not going to be industry standard within the next couple of years

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

Read the context!

I did, you were responding to goodbytes who said nothing about a specific phone.   You asked what has nokia got to do with MS when goodbytes post was exceedingly self explanatory.

 

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

 

 

And the TB3 supports all of them. It's an extremely versatile port. You want it to become ethernet, you can. You want to connect external GPU down the line for gaming or productivity, you can. I'm not saying Microsoft should go Apple's route and TB3 all things. Just make the type c port, that they were late to anyway TB3 enabled. And you've got to be joking if TB3 (going to be renamed to USB4), is not going to be industry standard within the next couple of years

Typical Apple response, it's not a problem if you carry a handful of dongles around with you.  Who cares what the standard is in a few years when we are talking about what the standards are today, not having ports that people use all the time today is not excused by possibilities in the future.   One of the reasons I will never buy an iphone (even though I hate android with all my soul) is because there is no card slot or 3.5mm port.  Two standards I use and want in my device today. 

[RedRound2]

16 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I did, you were responding to goodbytes who said nothing about a specific phone.   You asked what has nokia got to do with MS when goodbytes post was exceedingly self explanatory.

Clearly you seem to have some inability to finding the relevant context. Goodbytes said,

 

Even back in Windows Phone days, when Nokia, (later) Microsoft released phones with killer features and camera, people said, numerous times, why doesn't it have an Android version.

 

Killer features and camera? Only the first PureView phone was praised and it had nothing to do with Microsoft. Nobody gave a shit about Nokia products after Microsoft acquired it, and hence they died.

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Typical Apple response, it's not a problem if you carry a handful of dongles around with you.  Who cares what the standard is in a few years when we are talking about what the standards are today, not having ports that people use all the time today is not excused by possibilities in the future.  

 

Handful of dongles is precisely what people who've never used a type c device would say. You need only one, one of those small docks that have everything. And besides, stop expecting to use all your devices forever. Move on, all it requires is a cable swap and it's frankly not a big deal, especially with how type c has matured today.

 

And you make it sound like its impossible to use existing standards, which is objectively false.

 

Who cares about industry standards of future? So are you going to replace your laptop every two years then? I hold onto mine for significantly longer, as do most people. SO yes, future standards do matter

And none of this applies to my suggestion to microsoft of making one type c port tb3 enabled. None of your dongle issues or anything would arise from that. In fact there is no downsides. Only Apple have the balls to force something and Microsoft definitely does not have that sort of leverage and they will be stupid if they try to.

 

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One of the reasons I will never buy an iphone (even though I hate android with all my soul) is because there is no card slot or 3.5mm port.  Two standards I use and want in my device today. 

I wonder which android phones still have SD card and 3.5mm jack these days? Most don't, including pixel, oneplus, and Note10 (i think). Internal storage of 128GB+ is more than enough for most people and SD card doesn't really matter beyond that.

 

You talk as if Apple's the only one when its the same with others. Good, be a grandpa and stick to old standards. We all will just move onto superior tech stuff. And I also suggest you dont visit the forum because you'll constantly see articles about companies axing the two standards you adore and new technology that may not run well with you

[leadeater]

43 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

My point was TB3, vastly expands the capability of the port. Its great for future proofing and any sort of expansion

* And costs money. Like I said the people that use Surface Pro have no use for TB3 now or ever in the future. There are only two things they ever connect externally, USB drive and a projector and neither of these require TB or benefit from it.

 

Swiss army knives are neat and versatile but I would never use one therefore do not wish to have one. I very much struggle to think what I would ever use a TB port for on a laptop I would use. TB is no different to RGB here when you don't need it, "Wow amazing".... and don't care.

 

Criticizing the Surface Pro for not having TB makes about a much sense as criticizing a Wacom tablet for not having TB. The device needs to be fit for purpose, by the time some future thing might matter the device will have been replaced with the next generation and if what ever that thing make sense for this device type it'll be included.

 

43 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Also, my point was Microsoft been using the same dated design for past 4 generations.

It works and there hasn't been a need to change it so...

 

43 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Surface are notorious for their driver issues.

There is nothing in these that would make it so, they are so bare bones in OEM components every device that share the common parts and the unified driver would have the same problems. Things like Marvel drivers sucking isn't new and Microsoft hasn't got control over that, when you re-package something you get the blame but here the problem rests on Marvel or Intel etc not Microsoft. Most OEMs are crap at releasing new drivers so you get no updates so if you get shipped a good driver you're basically done however you get no improvements either. Better OEMs release updated drivers, problem with that is you are at the mercy of the 3rd party driver developers.

[mr moose]

14 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Clearly you seem to have some inability to finding the relevant context. Goodbytes said,

 

Even back in Windows Phone days, when Nokia, (later) Microsoft released phones with killer features and camera, people said, numerous times, why doesn't it have an Android version.

 

Killer features and camera? Only the first PureView phone was praised and it had nothing to do with Microsoft. Nobody gave a shit about Nokia products after Microsoft acquired it, and hence they died.

So you made an assumption to fit your misunderstanding.  That's no one else's fault but yours.   Goodbytes post was, as I said, exceedingly self explanatory.

 

 

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Handful of dongles is precisely what people who've never used a type c device would say. You need only one, one of those small docks that have everything. And besides, stop expecting to use all your devices forever. Move on, all it requires is a cable swap and it's frankly not a big deal, especially with how type c has matured today.

So there you go again, "people can carry around  a dock".  Not when it is easier to have sd card, and USB A in the device in the first place.

 

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And you make it sound like its impossible to use existing standards, which is objectively false.

That has nothing to do with anything I said.

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Who cares about industry standards of future? So are you going to replace your laptop every two years then? I hold onto mine for significantly longer, as do most people. SO yes, future standards do matter

Twisting words to hide the flaw in your argument. 

 

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And none of this applies to my suggestion to microsoft of making one type c port tb3 enabled. None of your dongle issues or anything would arise from that. In fact there is no downsides. Only Apple have the balls to force something and Microsoft definitely does not have that sort of leverage and they will be stupid if they try to.

 

No one cares about your suggestion.  I didn't even respond to it.  I simply pointed out that while people are still using current technology like USB A devices then it is appropriate to have them.  No one cares about TB3 or USB C when their boss hands them a USB A thumbdrive or they need to grab all the photos of the office SD card.

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I wonder which android phones still have SD card and 3.5mm jack these days? Most don't, including pixel, oneplus, and Note10 (i think). Internal storage of 128GB+ is more than enough for most people and SD card doesn't really matter beyond that.

The last one I bought  had both.  I don't give a fuck about internal storage, You could literally have terabytes of internal storage, but if the phone bricks because you drop it in water, or off the roof of a car,  get a power surge while charging,  Literally any of the hundreds of things that kill phones, and you can still retrieve al the photos of the card. Can;t do that with internal storage.  And no, I do not back up to cloud. Nor should I have to, that's your excuse for not needing a feature.

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You talk as if Apple's the only one when its the same with others. Good, be a grandpa and stick to old standards. We all will just move onto superior tech stuff. And I also suggest you dont visit the forum because you'll constantly see articles about companies axing the two standards you adore and new technology that may not run well with you

There you go again, everyone does it so it must be the right thing.  No it isn't. Wake up call for you, being able to point to multiple manufacturers shitting in your breakfast doesn't make it ok.   If I see a company ax a feature I will call it out. 

 

[Results45]

Dug this up today: ARM chiplets!

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14914/arm-tsmc-demo-7nm-chiplet-system-w-8-cortexa724ghz-on-cowos-interposer

 

I really hope both more Android-based folding devices and Windows-on-ARM PCs arrive to market with chips like this in the next few years.  Cuz that will get more and more developers to either re-compile 64-bit x86 apps to ARM64 and/or adapt mobile apps to be more on-par with their desktop-grade counterparts (e.g. Luma Fusion & Adobe CC Photoshop).

 

There's much potential for ARM-based PCs yet!

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Results45 said:

Dug this up today: ARM chiplets!

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14914/arm-tsmc-demo-7nm-chiplet-system-w-8-cortexa724ghz-on-cowos-interposer

 

I really hope both more Android-based folding devices and Windows-on-ARM PCs arrive to market with chips like this in the next few years.  Cuz that will get more and more developers to either re-compile 64-bit x86 apps to ARM64 and/or adapt mobile apps to be more on-par with their desktop-grade counterparts (e.g. Luma Fusion & Adobe CC Photoshop).

 

There's much potential for ARM-based PCs yet!

It will happen, everyone is pushing for it and not giving up.   you just know there are some serious adoption hurdles when both MS and Apple can't get a successful device out there.