German authorities label twitch streaming as broadcast service, requires fee

[Napper198]

3 minutes ago, tlink said:

that was probably more because tv stations started to use internet streaming their channels via their webpage. twitch and live streaming for common folks wasn't really that big of a thing.

yes, but it is the same law that applys to both plattforms so it can't be ignored.

Edit: Technically DVB and DAB are also a reason as they did not apply to the old version because they were not analoge.

[spartaman64]

so if you dont want to pay the fee dont make a schedule for your streams. just say ill be streaming on friday afternoon and dont mention a time? and vary the time that you start streaming

[Napper198]

1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

so if you dont want to pay the fee dont make a schedule for your streams. just say ill be streaming on friday afternoon and dont mention a time? and vary the time that you start streaming

It's not only the scedule, the law could theoretically apply as soon as you comply with only 2 of the points I mentioned and you already comply with one just by using any of these services.

[cluelessgenius]

soo if i watch stream not sending from germany are those pirate channels too? or what if im sending from germany but only broadcasting to viewers not from germany? those laws were created when in germany you could only get a handful of german tv channels on your black and white tv. we international bich. this is stupid. also i thought they would at least go against twitch as the channel but going against individual streamer... man thats harsh

[Napper198]

14 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

soo if i watch stream not sending from germany are those pirate channels too? or what if im sending from germany but only broadcasting to viewers not from germany? those laws were created when in germany you could only get a handful of german tv channels on your black and white tv. we international bich. this is stupid. also i thought they would at least go against twitch as the channel but going against individual streamer... man thats harsh

twitch is just the mean to broadcast, like analoge TV, DVB, IPTV. They didn't do anything wrong. This rule is targeted towards broadcasters themself, like Kirchmedia to name one. So a Streamer acts as it's own company here i.e. Gronkh and his company PlayMassive GmbH

But this also applys if you don't have a company. In that case you're 100% liable with your own money and freedom.

[Remixt]

I'm ready for a cleanse of the current political leaders. Step aside for people who actually understand the modern world.

[NumLock21]

4 hours ago, zMeul said:

Landesmedienanstalt

Rundfunklizenz

Jugendgefährdende 

Jugendschutzbeauftragten

ZAK, Die Kommission für Zulassung und Aufsicht

 

Stop at 0:16

 

 

[Nineshadow]

4 hours ago, Bananasplit_00 said:

oh wow. rest in peperonis Joshino and any other german stremers lol

I haven't heard that name in a long while.

Is he still streaming and doing youtube videos?

I haven't checked him out in like 2-3 years.

[Bananasplit_00]

20 minutes ago, Nineshadow said:

I haven't heard that name in a long while.

Is he still streaming and doing youtube videos?

I haven't checked him out in like 2-3 years.

he does both but he is pretty shit IMO

[ChineseChef]

Things like this will really start to test the boundaries of geography vs the internet.  Can Twitch and other internet stream sites avoid this by simply not having any offices in Germany?  Will the cost fall on the streamer?  Can the streamer say they are using a service in a different country, intended for non-Germans, even if the stream is completely viewable in Germany?  How big will you have to be for the Regulating body to care about you (not on paper, but before they actually go after you for not paying)?  What if the streaming site which has no offices in Germany refuses to give the German governing body viewership numbers?  Will the German gov't start blocking stream sites that don't pay from the internet in Germany?

 

This will all come down to how easily stream companies can simply avoid paying, and if the regulating body will care enough to go after individuals.  This may just be a dragnet for the larger stream companies that operate out of Germany, or are attempting to avoid paying fees elsewhere by suddenly claiming to be "online".  Since as stated earlier in the thread, all this stuff was already covered and added back in 2006.

[SansVarnic]

Sad thing is that this may set a precedence that other countries may/may not consider following ... governments have a tendency to want a piece of your pie.  

[HelplmChoking]

Okay Germany... I was with you when you went for Facebook, and Google 'cause they're big, evil and rich. But this is just hitting normal people who often can't afford this. I know plenty of streamers can afford it, but it makes a huge barrier to entry that will block new talent coming in.

[Guest Darth Revan]

WTF?

[GeekJump]

Here's your chance Youtube gaming!

Until Germany notices that also falls into the same boat at twitch....

[8uhbbhu8]

Wow this is one of the shittiest things I have heard this week.... It's almost to USA levels of stupid!!

[Not_Sean]

How would this sit with a VPN, if I live in germany, but my Stream is coming out of Poland or somewhere ? would that be enough ? 

[Doobeedoo]

This is some real BS wth. TV is garbage and don't have it for like decade once the digital and post CRT era kicked off. Subscription for TV? Hahahahaha!
But like Twitch livestreaming labeled as such and fee required?! Every one just want to put subscription on everything, fuck that!

 

Waiting for times when internet won't be "calculated" like this shit and mobile data caps.

[goodtofufriday]

Why are you specifying Twitch? This would apply to any live stream which includes YouTube and Facebook, as well as others. 

[HalGameGuru]

Statist over reach not withstanding, streaming isn't broadcasting. I'd hesitate to even call satellite or cable providers broadcasters. But, any way for the state to garner its green, it'll do.

[Napper198]

3 hours ago, ChineseChef said:

Things like this will really start to test the boundaries of geography vs the internet.  Can Twitch and other internet stream sites avoid this by simply not having any offices in Germany?  Will the cost fall on the streamer?  Can the streamer say they are using a service in a different country, intended for non-Germans, even if the stream is completely viewable in Germany?  How big will you have to be for the Regulating body to care about you (not on paper, but before they actually go after you for not paying)?  What if the streaming site which has no offices in Germany refuses to give the German governing body viewership numbers?  Will the German gov't start blocking stream sites that don't pay from the internet in Germany?

 

This will all come down to how easily stream companies can simply avoid paying, and if the regulating body will care enough to go after individuals.  This may just be a dragnet for the larger stream companies that operate out of Germany, or are attempting to avoid paying fees elsewhere by suddenly claiming to be "online".  Since as stated earlier in the thread, all this stuff was already covered and added back in 2006.

if you operate without a licence you're technically a pirate station but what actually happens from there is not regulated. historically there were 7 pirate radio stations in Germany (not counting those sending from belgium). all of them got shut down by police. Whether or not the responsible parties got fined or imprisoned is not documented well but in all cases the equiment got confiscated. (source)

 

It is entirely possible that Twitch and other streaming sites will be forced to implement a function that will prevent streaming to germany simmilarly to how copyrighted music is geoblocked on Youtube.

 

And again this law only applys to legal entities residing in Germany. Linus Media Group can happyly continue streaming to Germany and everyone else without any restictions (your juristicaion may vary).

2 hours ago, Not_Sean said:

How would this sit with a VPN, if I live in germany, but my Stream is coming out of Poland or somewhere ? would that be enough ? 

it would be harder to figure out who you are but technically still illegal.

47 minutes ago, goodtofufriday said:

Why are you specifying Twitch? This would apply to any live stream which includes YouTube and Facebook, as well as others. 

yes but I'd say it's because a) twitch makes their money with broadcasting and b) it is the easiest plattform for streamers to make money on.

 

 

To clarify things:

you don't have to pay a fee

Twitch doesn't have to pay a fee

Potentially every streamer living or having their media company based in germany will have to pay.

Everyone from outside of Germany or Germans that have their media company outside of Germany don't have to pay a fee.

Having to pay a fee and not paying it will probably get your channel geoblocked or deleted.

How quick that will happen depends on how big your channel is, but I can imagine that the geoblock feature will be implemented pretty quickly and will only be opt-out by sending twitch office a copy of your broadcast licence.

[ARikozuM]

13 hours ago, Urishima said:

Welcome to Germany. The stick is lodged firmly inside our collective asses and can not be removed.

So, you're all waiting for King Arthur to come along?

[Orangeator]

Welcome to socialism... Wanting to tax every damn thing they can get away with. Oh wait, that is every government. Lol.

[Guest Darth Revan]

15 hours ago, Tam3n said:

lol, but I bet everyone in Germany can continue twitch streaming just fine.

They can right up until a letter arrives telling them to pay a fine of over 1000 Euros. And then we they do it again, another letter.

[ChineseChef]

On 4/11/2017 at 7:05 PM, Napper198 said:

-snip-

It is entirely possible that Twitch and other streaming sites will be forced to implement a function that will prevent streaming to germany simmilarly to how copyrighted music is geoblocked on Youtube.

-snip-

I guess this will all be based on how much effort the German gov't is willing to put in to this.  I mean, if the streaming site/company has no offices or equipment in Germany, it would be up to German ISPs to block the site.  Cause Twitch isn't going to cut off revenue for silly laws that can't be enforced on them (in this described example).  The only real recourse Germany would have is to make the ISPs block the website, but then there are plenty of ways around that.  Then the German gov't could force banks to not allow payments from that site, but do you go after all the different sites?  How do they tell the banks to only block payments that violate the law without blocking over payments?  It would quickly become an insane mess of enforcement and just creating an excessively convoluted enforcement scheme.  And even then, how would you block payemnts made to some financial entity that resides outside Germany?

 

This is the internet we are talking about.  You could live in Germany, stream from a company not in Germany, get paid to a bank not in Germany, then just transfer that money into your German bank, and the gov't would only know if they actively watched the history of every financial transaction in the entire nation.  Which can be automated for obvious stuff, but there is no AI system in the world yet that can know that the money being transferred to your German account from your non-German account hasn't paid the correct fees based on rules that can't be told to a computer in such a that way it could even pretend to understand them.  And the manpower needed to monitor that kind of stuff could likely employ the entire nation of Germany all on its own.

 

The long and short of it is, it will only be enforceable if the company hosting the streaming wants to play ball with Germany.

[Bit_Guardian]

On 4/11/2017 at 0:16 PM, SaladFingers said:

Germany, what the actual hell???

 

Older generation just needs to go. Their lack of understanding of how technology works and their need to keep everything under tight control makes hardly any sense in the tech world.

If you think their handling of tech is bad, you should see their banking, insurance, and reinsurance. There's still a Unisys mainframe from 1954 maintaining the transaction load for Munich Re running at their Munich Headquarters. On the one hand, no one knows how to hack the thing. On the other, no one builds replacement parts for it.