AMD not supporting Zen3 on older motherboards :(

[NumLock21]

3 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

True, it was taken from a quick google search so I'm sorry I didn't find the original one

Not exactly your fault, TPU shouldn't have put their stupid watermark on it, in the first place.

[Taf the Ghost]

There's good reason to be salty about this, mostly as B550 is 10 months late, but people also have to remember that B450 isn't dead. If you're not rocking a 3900X or 3950X, there's a lot more left on the platform. Reality is that unless you drop a very expensive GPU into the system to really capture single-thread perf increases, a 3700X > 4600 in most multi-core workloads and you're not looking to upgrade quickly onto Zen3 if you've bought the price/perf setup.

[Aniallation]

24 minutes ago, Hilltrot said:

So all those people who suggested a certain B450 board for $2000 builds will eat crow?

Not necessarily. It's actually more likely that the nicer B450 boards will end up supporting Zen 3 anyways. B350 aren't supposed to support Zen 2 officially, but even my rather low-end B350M Gaming Pro still worked perfect after throwing in a 3600 and the latest BIOS. 

[DrMacintosh]

Even if they are dropping support for a non-technical reason, it's kinda hard to blame AMD for this. If Intel isn't being competitive and you can boost motherboard sales, that's great for AMD and board OEMs. They are a corporation after all.

[cj09beira]

3 hours ago, MageTank said:

They are not making anyone "absorb the damage". You are not owed backwards compatibility. New hardware doesn't automatically make your current hardware perform worse (Unless it's RTX, or Gameworks in general... wink wink). You still got what you paid for. Unless your product was explicitly advertised with support for Zen 3 processors, you were not mislead or deceived in any way. A company cannot be at fault simply because you assumed this backwards compatibility train would never stop, nor can they be blamed for "forcing computers to absorb the damage" when innovation requires moving forward. AMD cannot keep introducing new features if they have to constantly cater to the compatibility of older chipsets. Eventually we'd end up seeing what we did on X299 with those Babylake 7740/7760X's, where half of your DIMM slots can't be used, half of your M.2 slots can't be used, and half of the PCIe slots can't be used, except this time it could be worse as it would likely be disabling features on the CPU, not the ancient board you slotted it into.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how AMD bends over backwards to give people backwards compatibility, but the moment it comes time to move forward, people give them grief for doing so.

except they will still be on the same socket, and with zen chips being mostly an soc they can do whatever they want as long as they can fit the bootup code/bios on the bios eeprom

 

 

really hope they just allow for divided support with say 2 bioses, one for up to zen 2 one for zen 2 and zen 3, as i was planning to upgrade from 2nd gen to 4th gen 

 

[DailyProcrastinator]

I got good use out of my X470 board so I am 'content' with this but I actually feel bad for the amount of times not only I, but many of us here on the forum recommended a B450 board because of future upgrade-ability, I now think the info around AM4 CPU support has intentionally been obscured from the start. Many of us regulars here on LTT are enthusiasts, so we may have gotten 2-3 gens of CPU use out of AM4. But I actually am disappointing by this for those that just invested on Zen 2 and a B450 board.

 

It seems AMD was a bit misleading and while they can get away on a technicality that Zen 3 will likely launch late 2020 or 2021, I think the BS around not having B550 launch until just now (not even commercially available yet) not only seems intentional, but is going to hurt them. This will upset many people. 

 

I personally don't feel as cheated but MANY others will. And AMD's bios excuse is a load of sh!t. This is why favoring AMD over Intel is dumb, both are big international corporations with investors to please. Especially AMD, they had many dark years that they need to make up for. I interpret this as them deciding that they calculated a greater revenue increase by forcing people to upgrade motherboards, my opinion only.

 

Hopefully vendors sill release Zen3 Bios updates, right now this might not be what is said but this was the same thing with A320. AMD does not support it, but vendors still provided Bios updates on many of the A320 boards to support Zen2, so we will see what happens.

 

If that is not the case I can already guarantee this means no Zen 3 CPU for me, I am happy with my R7 3800x (maybe I will pick up a a good R9 used or on clearance) so again, I don't feel cheated. But many sales were made on the promise of extended AM4 support, the fact that most 4xx motherboards could easily receive Bios support but will not, will hurt their new found customer base. 

 

Congrats AMD for being Intel! 

 

Buy products people, not brands. At least the R5 3600 I recommended 100+ times is still great value vs the competition, even if it was with a MSI B450 Tomahawk Max...

[Zando_]

4 minutes ago, TheDailyProcrastinator said:

It seems AMD was a bit misleading

They said they'd support AM4 through 2020. AM4 is a socket, not a chipset. Is there a place they 100% assured chipset compatibility, or was that just a massive assumption by hopeful fans of the platform? 

6 minutes ago, TheDailyProcrastinator said:

many of us here on the forum recommended a B450 board because of future upgrade-ability

There's a reason I've typically avoided using that as a reason, or mentioned it but also made it clear that it isn't a guarantee, AMD never (to my knowledge) promised chipset support, only socket. 

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Hilltrot said:

So all those people who suggested a certain B450 board for $2000 builds will eat crow?

Yep.  Raw.  With feathers.  And small intestine, uncleaned.  I’m one of them.

 

 I was suggesting it for $500-$800 builds but it doesn’t taste any better.  Ther was a real belief that the x570 had nothing much on the b450 for a lot of applications.  That’s why there is so much OMG! going on here.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Taf the Ghost said:

There's good reason to be salty about this, mostly as B550 is 10 months late, but people also have to remember that B450 isn't dead. If you're not rocking a 3900X or 3950X, there's a lot more left on the platform. Reality is that unless you drop a very expensive GPU into the system to really capture single-thread perf increases, a 3700X > 4600 in most multi-core workloads and you're not looking to upgrade quickly onto Zen3 if you've bought the price/perf setup.

I’d say it pretty much shoots b450 in the face.  At least for a lot of the things it was being recommended for.   There was a belief it had future use.  There was one more cpu update left in it.  That turns out to apparently be possibly false.  I can’t recommend a b450 board at all right now.  The CPUs on it aren’t capable of being updated, so it’s get an a series board strong enough to not melt when you put your chip in it, and consider the mobo and cpu married for life, or get a decent x570 and factor in the $400+ price tag into the build for ryzen, which makes intel right back in the game again since now a z series board is half the price of an AMD board.  The good relative price of higher end b450 was what a big part of what made ryzen such an unbeatable stomp of intel.  The price of a ryzen system has just gone up $50-100 with no added value whatsoever.

[JoeCoke]

They haven't broken any promises by doing this, but it is kind of a bummer. It'd be kinda cool if motherboard manufacturers could make optional/alternate BIOS versions that drop gen 1 support for gen 4 support.

[DailyProcrastinator]

1 hour ago, Zando Bob said:

They said they'd support AM4 through 2020. AM4 is a socket, not a chipset. Is there a place they 100% assured chipset compatibility, or was that just a massive assumption by hopeful fans of the platform? 

There's a reason I've typically avoided using that as a reason, or mentioned it but also made it clear that it isn't a guarantee, AMD never (to my knowledge) promised chipset support, only socket. 

I know AM4 is a socket, regardless the BS Bios excuse is going to upset people. Especially since B550 was not available. 

 

[NumLock21]

So let me get this straight, people get current Ryzen cpu with their B450 boards, where the CPU is actually a placeholder, until the new Ryzen arrives? Sorry but that is a dumb idea and this proves it when AMD screws you in the rear end. Never on your 1st build or upgrading your current build, by buying a board or CPU first, then when the other parts you need is still months away. Always buy everything at once, when they are all available on store shelves.

 

[DailyProcrastinator]

37 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I’d say it pretty much shoots b450 in the face.  At least for a lot of the things it was being recommended for.   There was a belief it had future use.  There was one more cpu update left in it.  That turns out to apparently be possibly false.  I can’t recommend a b450 board at all right now.  The CPUs on it aren’t capable of being updated, so it’s get an a series board strong enough to not melt when you put your chip in it, and consider the mobo and cpu married for life, or get a decent x570 and factor in the $400+ price tag into the build for ryzen, which makes intel right back in the game again since now a z series board is half the price of an AMD board.  The good relative price of higher end b450 was what a big part of what made ryzen such an unbeatable stomp of intel.  The price of a ryzen system has just gone up $50-100 with no added value whatsoever.

Yeah this is one of my big issues with this news. AMD definitely rode the wave of news suggesting B450 was good for future upgrades, they could have killed that info LONG ago, but chose not to. Or they could have actually pushed the release of B550, what like10 months ago. So I also cannot recommend B450 any longer, for now it is just X570.

 

I just gave this some thought as well though, and with all that is going on in the EU and right to repair legislation + trying to reduce e-waste, AMD may get into a situation where they could be forced to support Zen3 on all compatible motherboards, or if this takes a few years to develop it could just turn into a class action lawsuit. And rightfully so, no real logical reason not to provide support, especially for the high end X370/X470/B450 motherboards.

 

Also people who are defending them saying they only promised AM4 support until 2020 need to realize that just because they did not explicitly say this exact scenario would happen still does not make it any less consumer friendly. Of course these companies look out for their own pocket books but I think what AMD did not say over the past 6 months is what shows their intentions. Why not clarify future support with B550/X570, and previous gens of motherboards. Because they wanted to make sales NOW. Thankfully I've made more than enough on their stocks to make up on it lol, but I still think it's a dick move.

 

As I get older I find my discontent for companies who promote the trend of replacement products even more and more distasteful, and we can blame the iPhone for that... Intel did this with LGA1151/8th gen as well, and we are all so okay with it now, because it's 'normal'. Bottom line is don't like brands, like products, I like my Ryzen CPU, I do not like AMD lol. 

 

Also Zen2 is still likely launching this year, last I checked my calendar it is still 2020 for another 7 months...

[DailyProcrastinator]

14 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

So let me get this straight, people get current Ryzen cpu with their B450 boards, where the CPU is actually a placeholder, until the new Ryzen arrives? Sorry but that is a dumb idea and this proves it when AMD screws you in the rear end. Never on your 1st build or upgrading your current build, by buying a board or CPU first, then when the other parts you need is still months away. Always buy everything at once, when they are all available on store shelves.

 

Maybe some, I think for most though people just went B450 with the intent of going for a Zen3 CPU down the line. But I agree if you are so impatient that you could not wait for your Zen3 CPU, this hopefully is a life lesson lol.

 

Even though I often recommended B450 I never used the F-word 'future-proofing'. I hate that term cause it implies we know the future, we do not. I always recommended that people buy what they need now, not to worry about the future because it is pointless. But it still sucks because B450 was a good viable option and AMD seemed to be a bit misleading here, I guess we will see if their stance changes over the coming months. My hope is some vendors still offer bios support. So those on B450/X470 aren't totally SOL, and from here on out for those wanting to buy now and upgrade their CPU maybe in a years time they will need to go X570.

[DailyProcrastinator]

2 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Even if they are dropping support for a non-technical reason, it's kinda hard to blame AMD for this. If Intel isn't being competitive and you can boost motherboard sales, that's great for AMD and board OEMs. They are a corporation after all.

Yes the unfortunate reality we accept.

[Andk1987]

Tech jesus has weighed in and said much the same.... 

 

[GDRRiley]

I'm now kinda happy I got a 2700x for cheap on a decent b450 board. I'll grab a 3rd gen chip and maybe another board when people start upgrading to 4th gen.

I'm a little mad that b550, x570 aren't suppose to support new chips but its a hell of a lot better than intel has ever done.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Even if they are dropping support for a non-technical reason, it's kinda hard to blame AMD for this. If Intel isn't being competitive and you can boost motherboard sales, that's great for AMD and board OEMs. They are a corporation after all.

So it's o.k for everyone to make a shit stink about Intel doing what they have always done and never promised more than 2 gens on any chipset ever, but AMD get a free pass when they screw everyone after promising a lot more than Intel ever did both through direct marketing and riding the wave of hype?  BS,  AMD are being dicks about this now they can.  And I actually take great pleasure in telling everyone "I told you so",  as soon as any company gets big enough to screw it's customers for a few more bucks they do.

 

2 hours ago, TheDailyProcrastinator said:

I got good use out of my X470 board so I am 'content' with this but I actually feel bad for the amount of times not only I, but many of us here on the forum recommended a B450 board because of future upgrade-ability, I now think the info around AM4 CPU support has intentionally been obscured from the start. Many of us regulars here on LTT are enthusiasts, so we may have gotten 2-3 gens of CPU use out of AM4. But I actually am disappointing by this for those that just invested on Zen 2 and a B450 board.

 

This is the crux of the issue,  I have been telling people since they first released AM4 not to do it thinking it was a viable long term strategy,  that you should always get the best you can afford at the time you want to buy,  placeholder CPU's, buying AM4 for future proof etc is was not a good enough reason alone. 

[Bombastinator]

37 minutes ago, 2Buck said:

They haven't broken any promises by doing this, but it is kind of a bummer. It'd be kinda cool if motherboard manufacturers could make optional/alternate BIOS versions that drop gen 1 support for gen 4 support.

This whole no broken promises thing rests on a pretty narrow definition of promise.  While I agree that the lack of ability to bring out b550 even vaguely on time should not be the thing that breaks AMD it could still happen.  People are going to stop buying b450 and x470.  I till b550 comes out there is only a430 for 3600x and smaller, because why buy anything but the cheapest, and really expensive x570 boards that dilute ryzen’s price advantage over intel.  
 

There should at least be some sort of attempt.
 

 

[DrMacintosh]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

as soon as any company gets big enough to screw it's customers for a few more bucks they do.

That's kinda the whole crux of Capitalism. 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, DrMacintosh said:

That's kinda the whole crux of Capitalism. 

Can be argued for sure, but still definitely not an excuse to give AMD a free pass.    Is the AMD bias coming back or have people just been suckered into the anti Intel rhetoric that it doesn't seem as bad coming from someone else?

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Can be argued for sure, but still definitely not an excuse to give AMD a free pass.    Is the AMD bias coming back or have people just been suckered into the anti Intel rhetoric that it doesn't seem as bad coming from someone else?

If AMD had been able to introduce b550 even somewhat close to when it was supposed to this wouldn’t be a thing.  If they had been clearer that there was no upgrade path to zen3 this wouldn’t have been a thing.  The problem is neither of those things happened so it’s a thing.  Intel’s strategy makes a lot more sense now.  It seemed stupid because we believed something that wasn’t true. 

[DrMacintosh]

10 minutes ago, mr moose said:

but still definitely not an excuse to give AMD a free pass.

What was AMDs promise anyway? AM4 was introduced in September 2016? It's May 2020 and only now are we seeing processors not being supported. Didn't they say they would support AM4 for 4 years? Technically they are still doing that. Just some boards can't. 

 

You can say they shouldn't have made a promise, but that promise wasn't a contract, and even if it was supporting a single platform for near 4 years is damn impressive. 

 

Hating on AMD for this isn't rational imo.

[DailyProcrastinator]

Just now, mr moose said:

This is the crux of the issue,  I have been telling people since they first released AM4 not to do it thinking it was a viable long term strategy,  that you should always get the best you can afford at the time you want to buy,  placeholder CPU's, buying AM4 for future proof etc is was not a good enough reason alone. 

To be fair I never promised this and I never recommended a place-holder CPU, I always suggested and recommended buying for current needs/wants. With the added value of 4 years of (ending in 2020) AM4 support. I think AMD was just misleading and should have made this clear since B550 was not even an option. But I never used the F-word 'future-proofing'. 

 

8 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

I'm now kinda happy I got a 2700x for cheap on a decent b450 board. I'll grab a 3rd gen chip and maybe another board when people start upgrading to 4th gen.

I'm a little mad that b550, x570 aren't suppose to support new chips but its a hell of a lot better than intel has ever done.

At least with Intel it seemed crystal clear lol (we knew it would happen), when LGA1151 8th gen was not compatible with my previous Z270 ITX board I was fully expecting it so I was not disappointed, just meh.... I knew what was coming.

 

AMD seemed to be more obscure about how they went about this. In some ways yeah they didn't need to be crystal clear and we should never take their word. Not that I was every holding out for AMD as I remember how excited/surprised I was that Zen2 would actually work on my X470 motherboard, I had grown so used to the old Intel ways. It was what I was hoping for all along but I did not solely invest in AM4 because of it, at the time the R7 1700 when bought with my X370 board originally was purchased because of the multi core workstation performance. Future AM4 support for a few gens was just icing on the cake really. If anything it just felt like a breath of fresh air, but how quickly this can be forgotten.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

What was AMDs promise anyway? AM4 was introduced in September 2016? It's May 2020 and only now are we seeing processors not being supported. Didn't they say they would support AM4 for 4 years? Technically they are still doing that. Just some boards can't. 

Intel come out and say at the start what will and will not be supported on their CPU sockets and chipsets.  AMD release another socket identical after years of claiming they will all work and the let the hype train convince everyone it will and do nothing to stop it.    Huge difference in upfront information on products and long term support.

 

3 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

You can say they shouldn't have made a promise, but that promise wasn't a contract, and even if it was supporting a single platform for near 4 years is damn impressive. 

 

Hating on AMD for this isn't rational imo.

Pretending it is O.K while hanging it on Intel is incredibly less rational.