AMD not supporting Zen3 on older motherboards :(

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, TheDankKoosh said:

Is this announcement not directly telling people to not buy 300 and 400 series boards if they intend to upgrade to zen 3? Isn't this approximately 6 months before release of zen 3? They never promised "till end of 2020" they only promised 2020 support for legacy boards which has been delivered, not to say that I'm not a bit angry from this announcement. This isn't really a bad move on their part from a financial perspective, but a somewhat frustrating one from a consumer perspective, I still find Intel's way of handling things to be much worse for consumers since they haven't had a reason to switch chipsets so often, considering they haven't had a new uarch in 5 years.

Justify it anyway you want, it doesn't change the fact they knew and didn't tell anyone leaving them to buy 400 boards thinking they could drop a 4000 on it.

 

Intel never did that to any of their customers, not even by ommission.  The worst thing IIntel did was tell you before you bought that you only got 2 gens out of every board. 

[AverageGamer-11]

yah i feel your guys pain, i got a nice high end x470 with a 2700x that still runs great, but i was planning on putting a zen3 in it when the time came but looks like im gona have to build an entire new PC now if i want that, because this PC itself gives me over 250fps on the new MW, im using a 2080 also. but AMD could do this but their starting to feel the power of being on top and feel like they can do what they want and the peasants will buy..... i guess ill either get a 3700-3900 for this pc and maybe build a new one but ill have to think on that.

[Arika]

don't mind me, just mining this thread

 

 

[AverageGamer-11]

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

The claim of "until 2020" to me, means through 2020 because all the reviewers were hyping up B450/X470 as an amazing value and you'd be able to throw a Zen2 cpu on it,  now AMD doesn't really have the advantage of being any cheaper over Intel. Yeah there are cheap X570 boards but the cheap ones aren't any better than B450, and you could actually get a Z390 board with more features for less than a X570 board.

I like AMD's products and what they've done to get Intel to be competitive again, but I can't stand the people that always defend AMD as if they can do no wrong, in this case AMD is really pulling an Intel but it almost seems worse because people are being told they can't upgrade even though the socket is exactly the same. Those that aren't aware are still going to buy B450 boards and be really upset when they realize there isn't any upgrade path to a newer cpu generation.

the z390 part you had also got me thinking, a 9900k wouldnt be the worst thing in the world, i alrdy have a ryzen for threaded tasks, so why not have a dedicated gaming machine also. it would cost about the same or maybe less soon as 10th gen comes out. iv herd the 10700 is posta be 9900k level (we will have to comfirm) but you wouldnt need the 10900k which im sure will be super expensive. 

[JoeCoke]

5 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

This whole no broken promises thing rests on a pretty narrow definition of promise. 

 

There should at least be some sort of attempt.
 

 

Well, again, 4th gen is coming at the end of 2020 or even more likely at this point, 2021. Their whole "support till' 2020" statement is still true, they did support AM4 till 2020. And for people saying that people are "excusing" this because it's AMD and not Intel, that might be true for some, but this still isn't the same as Intel. It's not like Intel where you're lucky to get even two generations of CPUs on one platform. You got three generations, a doubling of cores on the same platform, and you got supported in 2020. Was it shitty hair splitting on their part? Yeah, but they still technically didn't lie, and it could be a lot worse.

 

I'm not fully excusing this though, because people who buy 400 boards now will get fucked. They heard that Zen 3 would be on AM4, so they bought a motherboard and an entry level 3rd gen Ryzen CPU now with intentions to upgrade to 4th gen when it released... Yeah it's a shitty situation. Again, I think if space truly is the actual problem, motherboard manufacturers should just introduce an optional update to sacrifice gen 1 support to make room. I admit I'm not really educated on that aspect at all, so that could sound completely stupid.

[Blademaster91]

9 minutes ago, AverageGamer-11 said:

the z390 part you had also got me thinking, a 9900k wouldnt be the worst thing in the world, i alrdy have a ryzen for threaded tasks, so why not have a dedicated gaming machine also. it would cost about the same or maybe less soon as 10th gen comes out. iv herd the 10700 is posta be 9900k level (we will have to comfirm) but you wouldnt need the 10900k which im sure will be super expensive. 

I was just thinking some could've went with a 9700k or 9900k and a z390 instead of a high end X470 and 2xxx series Ryzen, the 3xxx CPU's aren't that much of an upgrade for most games, unless you want a 3900X which is still great for both for work and gaming, but if you're just using it for gaming the 9900k would be faster.

[Joe4evr]

3 minutes ago, 2Buck said:

I think if space truly is the actual problem, motherboard manufacturers should just introduce an optional update to sacrifice gen 1 support to make room. I admit I'm not really educated on this matter, so that could sound completely stupid.

It doesn't sound that stupid, I've seen it suggested both earlier in this thread and somewhere in the reddit thread. The counter to this, though, is it makes it harder for the manufacturers to maintain their BIOSes, versioning them becomes a PITA, and it becomes much too easy to confuse the user about what will and won't work.

[AverageGamer-11]

1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

I was just thinking some could've went with a 9700k or 9900k and a z390 instead of a high end X470 and 2xxx series Ryzen, the 3xxx CPU's aren't that much of an upgrade for most games, unless you want a 3900X which is still great for both for work and gaming, but if you're just using it for gaming the 9900k would be faster.

yah once 10th gen comes out, i might make me a 9900k machine. the 2700x has 16threads and i must have got a good one, it runs at 4.4ghz which wasnt much of an OC, it runs 4.35ghz on auto lol it can stream easy or other productivity work, so why not have one of each.

[mr moose]

10 minutes ago, 2Buck said:

Well, again, 4th gen is coming at the end of 2020 or even more likely at this point, 2021. Their whole "support till' 2020" statement is still true, they did support AM4 till 2020. And for people saying that people are "excusing" this because it's AMD and not Intel, that might be true for some, but this still isn't the same as Intel. It's not like Intel where you're lucky to get even two generations of CPUs on one platform. You got three generations, a doubling of cores on the same platform, and you got supported in 2020. Was it shitty hair splitting on their part? Yeah, but they still technically didn't lie, and it could be a lot worse.

The difference is there was no confusion over what you got with Intel, you knew if you bought an Intel CPU your next upgrade was very likely goingt o require a new Motherboard.  However as you pointed out already:

 

10 minutes ago, 2Buck said:

I'm not fully excusing this though, because people who buy 400 boards now will get fucked. They heard that Zen 3 would be on AM4, so they bought a motherboard and an entry level 3rd gen Ryzen CPU now with intentions to upgrade to 4th gen when it released... Yeah it's a shitty situation. Again, I think if space truly is the actual problem, motherboard manufacturers should just introduce an optional update to sacrifice gen 1 support to make room. I admit I'm not really educated on that aspect at all, so that could sound completely stupid.

 

As much as I warned people about this happening, I don't blame them given AMD clearly advertised zen3 during 2020 on their roadmap.

[mr moose]

24 minutes ago, spirch said:

they still support AM4 socket not the chipset

 

they said they would support AM4 socket, not the chipset

 

so ... i'm not mad at them?

Using that argument why are people unhappy with Intel, they are still supporting CPU's on socket 1151.

 EDIT: what are they up to now 4th generation on 1151?   

 

It's amazing how people justify their biases.

 

 

 

[GreatnessRD]

59 minutes ago, spirch said:

they still support AM4 socket not the chipset

 

they said they would support AM4 socket, not the chipset

 

so ... i'm not mad at them?

Yeah, that was a slick finesse on their part since they're technically not lying. Like I said in another post, I'm not too upset since I got a few years out of my B450. 

[Ravendarat]

14 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

like if you bough a 2xxx series CPU and X470 board to save money over a more expensive X570 board, you'd expect support for Zen 4000 series because AMD said so. 

But did they really? Like did they say AM4 would support Ryzen 4000 series or did they say that they would have support for processors up to 2020? Because if its the second one than they lived up to that. Im legit asking because I certainly dont remember reading that anywhere but I also most definitely havent read everything AMD has put out, not even close

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, Ravendarat said:

But did they really? Like did they say AM4 would support Ryzen 4000 series or did they say that they would have support for processors up to 2020? Because if its the second one than they lived up to that. Im legit asking because I certainly dont remember reading that anywhere but I also most definitely havent read everything AMD has put out, not even close

They only ever promised AM4 support until 2020, that's it. If people can't take a clue from already existing chipsets not having support for older gen processors and motherboard vendors having to do split BIOS releases because the chips are too small, information covered in multiple different prominent YouTube channels, then that is on them. If you assumed something that was not stated by the company ever that is your fault, truth hurts sometimes and people don't want to hear it.

 

The issue is B550 got delayed way, way, way longer than it should of. That's it. This forced people in to making bad decisions with bad information that wasn't clarified, but again that bad information only ever came from the community not the company. A small amount of blame can fall on motherboard vendors for providing support where it was not offered officially from AMD, that obscured things a bit. The flip side to that is they may again provide support for Zen3 on 400 series where it is not officially supported by AMD, if they can they likely will (not official information from AMD or vendors, assumption warning).

[Blademaster91]

24 minutes ago, Ravendarat said:

But did they really? Like did they say AM4 would support Ryzen 4000 series or did they say that they would have support for processors up to 2020? Because if its the second one than they lived up to that. Im legit asking because I certainly dont remember reading that anywhere but I also most definitely havent read everything AMD has put out, not even close

The AMD x86 cores roadmap slide in this thread shows Zen 3 7nm+ for 2020, it would have a lot of people assuming there would be AM4 X470 and B450 support for 2020, I think it's just bad timing with B550 coming out and AMD not mentioning anything of no support for X470 or B450 until the B550 boards were ready. IMO what is compatible with Zen3 should've been made clear months ago so people wouldn't have bought into B450 with a cheap CPU or APU thinking they would have a upgrade path.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Blademaster91
spelling/typo

[Ravendarat]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

The AMD x86 cores roadmap slide in this thread shows Zen 3 7nm+ for 2020, it would have a lot of people assuming there would be AM4 support for 2020, I think it's just bad timing with B550 coming out and AMD not mentioning anything of no support for X470 or B450 until the B550 boards were ready. IMO what is compatible with Zen3 should've been clarified months ago so people wouldn't have bought into B450 with a cheap CPU or APU thinking they would have a upgrade path.

Ah yes, I missed that slide. Based on that I can certainly understand the frustration. It will be interesting to see when these chips actually hit the market if we get real world clarification on why they wont be able to used on previous boards and if it actually holds true

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

 IMO what is compatible with Zen3 should've been clarified months ago so people would've have bought into B450 with a cheap CPU or APU thinking they would have a upgrade path.

I have trouble believing AMD didn't know or couldn't work out what was going to be compatible even a year ago. It's not like their engineers were blind sided by the size of their bios's and they had to scramble to make things work.  Their roadmap definitely left consumers with the distinct impression zen3 was going to work on current AM4 boards (after all their promise was platform support til 2020).

[MzHellcat]

16 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Sounds like “massive public outcry” is needed. A LOT of people bought b450 because it was understood it would support zen3 that’s what the whole “support for am4” was about.

It’s effectively cheating the public because they were led to believe that am4 was am4.  With this am4 is still am4 and it a “we could, but we just won’t” situation.
 This is no time to pull an intel and end-of-life a whole bunch of motherboards.  Intel at least has the decency to change a socket when they do that.  This is actually WORSE than what intel does with its constant socket changes because it’s going to cause a bunch of problems for users.

then you're worse than both Intel and AMD. You should know that BIOS microcodes were stored somewhere in the motherboard. That was the problem, as many B450 boards only has limited amount of BIOS chip capacity (128mb/16MB) and almost fully used after Ryzen 3000 CPU support, even with UEFI interface cutdown and older non-Zen based CPU support dropped.
Stop being silly thinking "let's do massive public outcry if AMD doesn't do this and that", let both AMD and board manufacturer sort things out. Take note that many X470 boards and some B450 (especially MSI MAX refreshes) already use 32MB BIOS chip.

[Bombastinator]

29 minutes ago, MzHellcat said:

then you're worse than both Intel and AMD. You should know that BIOS microcodes were stored somewhere in the motherboard. That was the problem, as many B450 boards only has limited amount of BIOS chip capacity (128mb/16MB) and almost fully used after Ryzen 3000 CPU support, even with UEFI interface cutdown and older non-Zen based CPU support dropped.
Stop being silly thinking "let's do massive public outcry if AMD doesn't do this and that", let both AMD and board manufacturer sort things out. Take note that many X470 boards and some B450 (especially MSI MAX refreshes) already use 32MB BIOS chip.

I’m worse? I personally? Than a gigantic chip manufacturer?  At making chips?  I would hope so.  Am I supposed to be better?
 

I did know that stuff was stored in bios that defined which chips could be used and that it stored a whole bunch of different chips some of them quite old that were no longer even made. How much memory these took each was unknown by me.  I knew that the whole “3000 ready” thin involved making space by removing some of this “dead wood” but which stuff was removed or how much of it was never made clear.  Some bioses on Max boards were actually made larger with the implication that this meant no dead wood had to be removed at all.  So I’m “worse than intel or AMD” huh? I’m worse than a motherboard manufacturer too I hope. 

Mobo manufacturers seemed quite able to swap out one cpu set for another.  There was a worry when ryzen 3000 came out that no motherboards would handle them, then when max appeared only MAX  boards would be able to handle ryzen 3000 but that was quickly shown to be untrue as well.  Bios didn’t hold info for just one chip.  It fit info for MANY different kinds of chips.  Which and how many sets were stored in bios was a vague and amorphous thing to users.  How big these were and how many was not explained.  Just that there were lots and many of them were old no longer even made chips.  Apparently this can still even be done.  4000 series chips could have their microcode inserted at the cost of other different  older chips being removed.  It’s simply that AMD doesn’t want to write it.

[PlayStation 2]

Seems that amnesia has settled in with this community. AMD said that they'd support the original set of chipsets until 2020. Welcome to 2020! We're in May.

[Bombastinator]

13 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Seems that amnesia has settled in with this community. AMD said that they'd support the original set of chipsets until 2020. Welcome to 2020! We're in May.

They were vague about when exactly they would stop supporting things, which implied notice would be given.  Notice wasn’t given till after the fact.  It still hasn’t.  This isn’t about an announcement it’s about a leak.  None of this matters though.  B550 is still not available. There is a hole.  There also apparently WAS a hole as well.  These two things are being conflated.  Had b550 BEEN available it might have been suggested as an option.  If b550 was available now it COULD be suggested as an option.  B550 ISN’T available. 

[fyxsg]

I hope MSI can fulfill this promise

[mr moose]

22 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Seems that amnesia has settled in with this community. AMD said that they'd support the original set of chipsets until 2020. Welcome to 2020! We're in May.

check the roadmap above,  it defiantly insinuates zen3 on al 2020 AM4 boards.

 

 

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

This isn’t about an announcement it’s about a leak

It's not a leak, it's a question asked by a reporter to AMD and someone representing AMD answered the question. Unless AMD retract that statement then that is the official answer.

 

Further to that the official slides also show the same information so I don't know why leak terminology is being used.

 

Yes B550 is late, yes AMD were planning to release this information at the release of B550, like they did, however at no point did any official information show B450 or anything else say support for Zen 3. Assuming gets you to here.

 

Could or should have AMD released a press statement a while ago about B550 delays and given this information the same time, yes. But that didn't happen. The thing is AMD just can't give out information that affects their partners and vendors without first engaging with them, nobody here knows when this Zen 3 support information could have been released sooner.

 

But if existing products couldn't fit full AGESA binaries for all current Zen products what on earth makes you think a newer and now even larger one is going to fit? BIOS chips are not a TARDIS, they aren't bigger on the inside. Not a single person outside tech forum circles would have been making these assumptions or even thinking about it, this is a case of having just enough information to be deadly.

 

19 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

B550 ISN’T available. 

You don't have to buy anything as it is.

[mr moose]

11 minutes ago, fyxsg said:

I hope MSI can fulfill this promise

That's definitely bad advertising.  It looks like AMD hasn't even been communicating with board makers let alone their customers.

 

[TheDankKoosh]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

check the roadmap above,  it defiantly insinuates zen3 on al 2020 AM4 boards.

 

 

That's an MSI roadmap from when the MAX boards released, Zen 3 was an afterthought as these boards were meant to be cheap alternatives to x570. This has nothing to do with AMD themselves.