Pewdiepie uses racial slur on livestream of PUBG, Firewatch dev files DMCA

[hobobobo]

3 hours ago, The Benjamins said:

if people want that word to be taboo, then all variations should not be used by anyone. but currently the use of nigga is in pop culture.

I'm outright triggered by this

If people want some word to be taboo they can go fuck themselves, it doesnt matter if it was used to opress, undermind or whatever. Its a word, the nucleus of though, banning words is beyond ussr level of authoritarism, its downright telling people how to think

[The Benjamins]

1 minute ago, hobobobo said:

I'm outright triggered by this

If people want some word to be taboo they can go fuck themselves, it doesnt matter if it was used to opress, undermind or whatever. Its a word, the nucleus of though, banning words is beyond ussr level of authoritarism, its downright telling people how to think

I don't care to much either way, but I think they should pick a side, not both.

I also purposely didn't say banned, I don't think words should be banned. but making it taboo as in not acceptable for standard media is fine.

[GSTARR]

Sean vanaman looks like the type of guy who heads the team who actually made the game, not the type of guy who could do it

[hobobobo]

Just now, The Benjamins said:

I don't care to much either way, but I think they should pick a side, not both.

I also purposely didn't say banned, I don't think words should be banned. but making it taboo as in not acceptable for standard media is fine.

This way nothing to disagree with. Just jumped from taboo to ban since the defenition of taboo kinda implies a ban and the mob mentality, or at least the image presented on the web, is in such a way that they are not taboos, they are downright considered to be capital offense, since, you know, it used to be inconsievable to hear shit piss fuck on the tele, then they moved to beeps, now its just ok.

 

Its more of a question of an enviroment, you cant mandate the word to be in a bad taste but you can push the discurs towards embracing the word, understanding it to the core and just using it appropriatly. Its the same way with сука, блять, хуй, пизда and a couple of other words in russian, its a str8 sign of a gopnik if a person overuses them to no end, but at the same time they provide with a way to put a strong emphasis, bind your emotional vision of a situation to the sentance and generally makes the language richer. Afaic, if you want to call somebody you dont like a nigger instead of an asshole or wanker or whatever, you should be able to, disregarding the colour of their skin.

 

 

I think i went a bit overboard

[Delicieuxz]

The PUBG Steam reviews are filled with people taking issue with the PUBG developer's intervention and action against players for absurd reasons. Apparently, the PUBG dev has the misguided impression that making a piece of software makes you a god over everybody who uses that software.

 

It sounds to me like this Sean Vanaman lacks reasonable discretion and might have a personality disorder.

[The Benjamins]

5 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

The PUBG Steam reviews are filled with people taking issue with the PUBG developer's intervention and action against players for absurd reasons. Apparently, the PUBG dev has the misguided impression that making a piece of software makes you a god over everybody who uses that software.

 

It sounds to me like this Sean Vanaman has lacks reasonable discretion and might have a personality disorder.

This thread is not about the PUBG devs, just that PDP was playing PUBG when he used the N-word, and another dev DMCA the videos of PDP reviewing their game.

[JediFragger]

Words only have the power that we give them.

 

I personally think it's wrong for a white guy to use such a word, but I think as this particular word has been taken mainstream by the black music scene for a while now that it'll inevitably be seen as a 'cool' word to use by kids/young men of all creeds and colours. I'm not saying it's right, but it's a factor in my eyes (43 y/o white guy here).

[Energycore]

3 hours ago, one-sixty said:

I swear I dont know why people make this such a big deal, he said somthing ok, if you didnt like it just ignore it its not a big deal, it was on accident to.

No dude, that's how bullying and other attacks fly under the radar. The fact is, words can have harmful effect, and when used specifically for harm you can equate harmful words to harmful action.

 

As far as it being "by accident", how can you tell?

[LAwLz]

19 minutes ago, Energycore said:

As far as it being "by accident", how can you tell?

Because as soon as he realizes what he said, he apologizes and rephrases it.

That's typically a big sign that it was not on purpose.

[Commodus]

A Twitter friend with expertise in discrimination debates pointed something out: it's funny how so many people are willing to acknowledge that racism exists, but the moment you point to an example of it, they bend over backwards to say that it doesn't really count.

 

PewDiePie quickly apologized, and that's good; I'm sure he's nicer than that outburst suggested.  However, that's not really the point.  The issue is that racism is this infectious, pervasive thing that can affect otherwise well-meaning people.  It's that readiness to use racial slurs in the heat of the moment (even as a joke), and then telling black people that they shouldn't find it offensive.  It's tensing up when you cross paths with a black man on the street, or rolling up your windows when you drive through a predominantly black neighborhood.  And if you don't check that behavior, especially with public figures like PewDiePie, it never really goes away -- you're basically arguing that a casual level of racism is okay.

[Sauron]

3 hours ago, hobobobo said:

I'm outright triggered by this

If people want some word to be taboo they can go fuck themselves, it doesnt matter if it was used to opress, undermind or whatever. Its a word, the nucleus of though, banning words is beyond ussr level of authoritarism, its downright telling people how to think

You see, there's a difference between prosecuting you for using a word and not wanting to be around you if you use it. You are allowed to say whatever you want, just don't be surprised if people leave.

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Because as soon as he realizes what he said, he apologizes and rephrases it.

That's typically a big sign that it was not on purpose.

To be honest I don't know which is worse - saying it as a one off trying to be funny or using it on a daily basis in his non-internet interactions. Sure, he apologised for saying it on stream (which is good) but if he has the word so ready it's obvious that he does use it quite often in his everyday life.

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, Sauron said:

They really don't, there are fair use laws that allow the use of copyrighted work in transformative products (such as a commentary/gameplay video) without the holder's permission. Watching PDP play a game is hardly the same as playing it yourself - unless the game requires almost no user interaction, in which case it's better classified as a movie as far as I'm concerned.

Fair use is a defense not a right.   The game play is not transformative, PDP makes money from it and he has more than one video (meaning it is not a review or criticism), it fails the fair use defense criteria on several points.

 

Also, many people don;t realise this, but having some form of contract/license in place actually negate most fair use, which in this case happened, they explicitly gave him permission to play t he game and monetize it,  they also have the right to take that permission away when circumstances change and they no longer want to be associated with him.

 

 

6 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

Ok I think we've exhausted the "OMG damn PC culture!" side quite enough. Can we instead just focus on the DMCA thing?

But, my right to be offended at someone else being offended is offensive.  Why do people think that wanting to do something about people who offend you is somehow wrong, but taking offense when they do is not?

 

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

On the first page we have at least one person saying they think the actions of the developers are fair, and that this is not abusing the DMCA.

 

You might want to check DMCA law in the US, they are not abusing it, whether you think it's fair or not does not change the law.  Fair use (as I have already explained) has criteria and is a defense, not a guaranteed right.   In this specific case it has not been tried in a court (as far as I know the closest is Nintendo who's beef was purely money I think), however in this specific case PDP's use fails on 3 counts, it is not transformative, it is monetized and he had permission to use it until he used words Sean disagreed with (prior contract/license agreement).    

 

 

It is really important that people work out the difference between copyright law and personal opinion,  regardless of whether people think he is a dick or his right to decide who his product is associated with is irrelevant,  DMCA law is not being abused even if Sean is doing it only out of childish spite. 

 

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/

 

Quote

In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner. In other words, fair use is a defense against a claim of copyright infringement

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

 

I'm not going to copy out great swaths of text, it's all in there and all referenced to previous cases and precedents that have been set.

[Zebedeeboing]

I think their best bet would be to refuse to allow PDP to stream any more of their games in future with an explicit mention of streamers known to have used derogatory terms that do not fit their terms of service but then they would find themselves constantly battling this with people nit picking and reporting every other user who said something detestable live on stream.

 

I think the sentiment is good. The execution is poor. PDP is a complete ass either way and he needs to grow the f**k up if he is going to be such a huge star to so many fans following in his footsteps. YT streamers like PDP represent a very different kind of relatable celebrity than most others due to such frequent and relatively intimate connections over others that they really can have a strong socialising effect on others. TLDR - he needs to watch his mouth when speaking publicly to so many impressionable viewers. If he was a smalltimer he would probably find himself struck from or severely warned by streaming sites/Youtube. 

[Phate.exe]

10 minutes ago, Sauron said:

You see, there's a difference between prosecuting you for using a word and not wanting to be around you if you use it. You are allowed to say whatever you want, just don't be surprised if people leave.

Exactly.  Expressing a viewpoint has consequences.  If people hear/read the things you say, and their reaction is "wow, what an asshole, I'd rather not associate or generally deal with this person anymore", you're not being oppressed at all.  You're legally well within your rights, and your rights aren't being stepped on in any way.  It's just people seeing you being an asshole and not wanting to deal with you.  If your employer sees/hears/reads some of the things you say, and they don't like it, and they decide "yeah, I'd rather not have this person on my payroll representing my business anymore" and shitcan you, your rights are not being stepped on in any way.

[Scionyde]

29 minutes ago, Phate.exe said:

Exactly.  Expressing a viewpoint has consequences.  If people hear/read the things you say, and their reaction is "wow, what an asshole, I'd rather not associate or generally deal with this person anymore", you're not being oppressed at all.  You're legally well within your rights, and your rights aren't being stepped on in any way.  It's just people seeing you being an asshole and not wanting to deal with you.  If your employer sees/hears/reads some of the things you say, and they don't like it, and they decide "yeah, I'd rather not have this person on my payroll representing my business anymore" and shitcan you, your rights are not being stepped on in any way.

True, but personally I think the bigger issue here is whether or not the DMCA claims are warranted. I'm all for discouraging shitty behavior in society, but I'm wary of the temptation to accept when a despicable person's rights might be violated (like if a neo-nazi gets sucker punched at a rally, to cite a more extreme example)

 

Not saying it's obvious whether PDP's rights are being violated here - Leonard French and Ryan Morrison appear to have differing opinions on the legitimacy of Vanaman's DMCA claims so I get the impression this is a bit of a gray area. 

 

I'm certainly not a lawyer (or a LPer), but I'm interested to see how this plays out. (hur hur)

[handymanshandle]

Honestly I feel like it might be a violation of DCMA to do that.

[handymanshandle]

6 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

I really don't get why this specific word is so offensive when f*ggot is just fine. Both are equally offensive TBH.

It means a bundle of sticks in other places and as someone who is gay myself, I don't really consider it that offensive but then again I'm not like those stereotype propagators.

[lkarej]

I think it's a funny situation.
Doesn't change my opinion of the guy at all.

He's not funny all the time but definitely has his moments.
 

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Scionyde said:

True, but personally I think the bigger issue here is whether or not the DMCA claims are warranted.

 

The issue here is people are offended at the idea that copyright owners have opinions too and (heaven forbid) actually have some legal rights over their own material.

 

 

As far as I can tell from everything I have read, there is no requirement in law for a copyright owner to have a reason for filing a claim,  The law states it is their material and they alone decide who uses it based on their own personal motivations.     It doesn't even matter if the only reason is that they just don't like you.

 

 

[lkarej]

1 minute ago, wcreek said:

It means a bundle of sticks in other places and as someone who is gay myself, I don't really consider it that offensive but then again I'm not like those stereotype propagators.

I have a gay friend who once told me "you know (name), there's a difference between gays and f@ggots" and told me about how he sees the difference between the two. (Basically the latter being the flamboyant people who let it consume their identity instead of just being a part of them).
plz no ban mods.

[8uhbbhu8]

Oh i'm offended!!! Oh no!!!! Someone help!!!!

 

 

 

Oh man the salt is real  If your offended, well, that sucks to be you. Its part of life and will happen weather or not you want it to. Its a game guys. People are going to swear and curse at it no matter how well they do. Its the internet. What else do you expect?!!!! Anywhere where a large group of people gather with different view points and opinions has the possibility to become toxic. Too bad. Get over it. Its life.

[8uhbbhu8]

Now the DMCA take down issue is actually a problem. They have no reason that can be actively justified to do that. It comes down once again to how they think on a personal level. I hope (no matter how much I hate Pewdiepie) that this doesn't start a trend among game devs as there are enough already (Cough Cough Wargaming, Gaijin) that do it because they're a bunch of pansys that can't stand criticism. 

[handymanshandle]

7 minutes ago, lkarej said:

I have a gay friend who once told me "you know (name), there's a difference between gays and f@ggots" and told me about how he sees the difference between the two. (Basically the latter being the flamboyant people who let it consume their identity instead of just being a part of them).
plz no ban mods.

I think that's accurate too. I don't want or need to be making it very clear that I like gentlemen's sosig or that I am in a same sex relationship. Because most people don't care and it honestly causes more issues than it solves because those that don't tolerate you or support you are going to make it clear they dont like you and how you live.

 

The best way to fix that in my opinion is just be normal. Live normal lives. Like in TV shows and movies the whole "being gay" thing is way too forced. Why can't a character just happen to be a woman or just happen to be gay or just happen to be this or that.

[lkarej]

5 minutes ago, wcreek said:

I think that's accurate too. I don't want or need to be making it very clear that I like gentlemen's sosig or that I am in a same sex relationship. Because most people don't care and it honestly causes more issues than it solves because those that don't tolerate you or support you are going to make it clear they dont like you and how you live.

 

The best way to fix that in my opinion is just be normal. Live normal lives. Like in TV shows and movies the whole "being gay" thing is way too forced. Why can't a character just happen to be a woman or just happen to be gay or just happen to be this or that.

There's legitimate reasons, then there's conspiracy reasons.
Both probably have some merit to them.

I personally despise the second category listed, not because they're gay, but because of how they go about it. In fact I just read something that I just saw on facebook and actually shared on my personal page.
Spoiler for those who may read this, if you're not as open minded as I am, do not read this as you'll likely just flame me anyways.
 

Spoiler

I am Lewis, the child of gay parents, and this is my experience of gay parents. My mother and father were never married, and while my father was homosexual, my mother identified as bi-sexual, and had spent several years in a lesbian relationship sometime prior to my birth. I was born as a result of a “one-night stand” after mum and dad had been drinking.

My parents never lived together, and I was in and out of foster care until I was about 8 years old, and only occasionally lived or stayed with my mother. During the years up until I was 13 I was in and out of foster care. I never met my father until I was two years old, and then I did not meet him again until I was 13. At that time I went to live with my father and his gay lover, my mother wanted me to spend some time with my father after not being around for my childhood.

I never liked living with them. Their “gayness” was like a religion, they seemed to constantly need to reaffirm their “gayness” through their actions. They seemed to have to prove to me that they were gay. It was like a religion, their only identity, their badge of honour. They constantly talked about it. Their “gayness” was their number one topic, more than anything else. They would introduce themselves to people by saying things like “Hi, my name is Simon and I am gay”. Straight people don’t do that. They don’t come out and say “Hi, I am Simon and I am straight”, but Dad and his partner would announce it and force it onto people.

Sexual innuendo was in everything. They were always “checking out” other guys even though they had been together 13 years. They weren’t close, yet they stayed together and I didn’t understand why. We could be at the supermarket and they would look at other guys and say things like, “Isn’t he good looking”. I was totally embarrassed. I felt that I could not bring my friends over, everything was “gay” in the house. Their behaviour was gay, the way they talked, their actions, everything. It all seemed greatly overdone and unnatural, and I was afraid of what my friends would think. I couldn’t introduce my father because I was ashamed of him. They would often make sexual comments about my friends once they had left the house, and I found this repulsive.

Dad and his partner would kiss me on the cheek. I always found that uncomfortable. They would always do it, even in my late teens. I knew from my friends and from movies and TV that teenage boys didn’t normally get kissed by their fathers.

There were few boundaries. Every couple of months I would be hit as a child. I walked on egg shells. There was always fighting between dad and his partner, and they would throw plates and food. I never felt safe. I was constantly aware of what was going on around me in the house. I felt sexually vulnerable. There were concealed cameras around the house in my private areas. I even came across video footage of me in one of their computers.

Other people thought I was gay too, and all of this deeply embarrassed me. I felt it was wrong. I felt that there was an expectation upon me that I should be gay, even though I had no feelings for males. I was expected to be gay by my gay parents. This led to great confusion within me.

There was no consideration of my feelings. They would make me food for school that I could not stand to eat. There was no checking in with me on what I wanted, or how I felt about anything.

We went to a 40th birthday party. I thought we were guests. I didn’t know Dad was the entertainment. Next thing I knew he was dressed in drag and singing Abba…I had no warning. It’s like “fat shaming” someone. I was publicly embarrassed …a lot.

I couldn’t talk to them about my puberty issues because they were not “man” enough in their behaviour or attitudes. It was like talking to women. I ended up having that conversation with a respite carer.
I remained with them both until my father left his partner when I was 17 years of age and my Dad kicked me out. 
Having nowhere else to go I continued to live with his ex-partner until I was 21. He was extremely controlling and took almost total control of my life, even down to making me sign a handwritten agreement giving him almost total authority over me in many areas of life, including total control over my bank account. Even after I had left there to make a life for myself, he still tried to contact me and exercise control over me until he was threatened with legal action.

My experience of living with gay parents left me emotionally scarred and feeling that my upbringing was both confused and confusing. There was a great void in my life that needed to be filled and never was, as I did not feel loved at any stage.

Yet, like others who have emerged from deeply disturbing backgrounds I have gone onto rekindle a growing relationship with both of my parents and also have found peace with the conservative values I now hold. Their values are not my values, but I still honour them for being my parents. To be honest without these experiences I would not have the clarity of the real issues involved in this matter.

Gays do look at straight people as homophobes if we don’t agree with their lifestyle. After living with them for all those years it left me with the view that being gay is often a “put-on” lifestyle. It’s a show. It’s all about “me, me, me” and not an ideal environment for raising children

Consequently, I will be voting against same-sex marriage in the postal plebiscite, and I urge you to also vote NO, for the sake of the protection of children.


Now, I'm not saying all gay people are like this. I'd wager the majority are very respectable people, just like everyone else. This story is the result of the second category of people listed under "the second category" in the discussion Wcreek and I are having.

If you read it and are going to flame me I will report you.
I'm being very tolerant and currently following all rules.

[hobobobo]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

You see, there's a difference between prosecuting you for using a word and not wanting to be around you if you use it. You are allowed to say whatever you want, just don't be surprised if people leave.

Well, that is exactly the point. To put the analogy to good use, the op is about a guy who went to another establishment, saw his previous guest and decided that the guests previous visit to his establishment should be purged from existance by law, since he did not like the way the guest behaved, even though he was completly fine with him at the time of the visit.