Finally Someone Decided To Do Something About Miners

[Drak3]

1 hour ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

-snippity do dah day-

Leadeater wouldn't kill it when he had the chance :'(

[NumLock21]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Leadeater wouldn't kill it when he had the chance :'(

Why kill it?

Let others express their opinion on it. 

[Drak3]

Just now, NumLock21 said:

Why kill it?

Let others express their opinion on it. 

It's a shit show, with the ultimate theme being a circular whirlpool of idiocy, miner bashing, a few people looking at the situation at a capacity beyond "how does this affect me? Fuck everyone else."

 

We've come to the point where news about miners and GPUs turn into a anti-miner vs pro-miner/indifferent towards miner flamewar.

 

And the thread has already been cleaned twice. Generally, the mods clean once with love, and the second time, with the cleansing fire of a veangeful god and make it so that it doesn't need to be cleaned again.

[Zodiark1593]

8 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

I'm not talking about technology I'm talking about positioning products. Most consumer products artificially limit uses companies deem as workstation or server things. We can even see a very recent example: Microsoft is taking away their new file system from consumer version of Windows for no other reason than to sell their Workstation SKU.

 

So ultimately, not even AMD will be able to keep up with both consumers and miners, they will have to choose and I seriously doubt they'll choose just the miners, particularly because as a business they actually could pay more for the cards while consumers mostly can't.

Beyond mining, compute applications are already in wide use, consumer, hobbyist, professional or otherwise. While not mainstream in the sense that grandma is doing so, the market for gpgpu capability is far from negligible, and even communities like Folding@home will have a word or three to say if GPU compute on consumer cards was no longer a thing. (As many contributors probably can not afford Quadros or FirePros). Video editing and other such tasks are also leaning more heavily upon the GPU.

 

Also, competition will ensure that removal of compute capability (OpenCL, CUDA, DirectCompute) will not be a reality. (Ie, the first vendor that dares to do so will be shooting themselves in the foot). If one wants a card for gaming and productivity, why choose the vendor with locked down cards?

[Misanthrope]

5 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Beyond mining, compute applications are already in wide use, consumer, hobbyist, professional or otherwise. While not mainstream in the sense that grandma is doing so, the market for gpgpu capability is far from negligible, and even communities like Folding@home will have a word or three to say if GPU compute on consumer cards was no longer a thing. (As many contributors probably can not afford Quadros or FirePros). Video editing and other such tasks are also leaning more heavily upon the GPU.

 

Also, competition will ensure that removal of compute capability (OpenCL, CUDA, DirectCompute) will not be a reality. (Ie, the first vendor that dares to do so will be shooting themselves in the foot). If one wants a card for gaming and productivity, why choose the vendor with locked down cards?

That's not an argument as to why consumers need compute or why wouldn't those who need it wouldn't just get workstation cards at workstation prices.

 

If one wants a card for gaming and productivity one can already get said card from both vendors: The Nvidia Titan and the AMD Frontier Edition. This cards existing I would consider the first move to the divide, before a more overt limitation is placed on consumer compute but I think it will follow.

[cj09beira]

1 hour ago, NumLock21 said:

your childhood was, to be stuffed inside a toyota, like a sardine stuffed inside a tin can?

its not that bad after you get used to the smell and the lack of space

[NumLock21]

30 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

It's a shit show, with the ultimate theme being a circular whirlpool of idiocy, miner bashing, a few people looking at the situation at a capacity beyond "how does this affect me? Fuck everyone else."

 

We've come to the point where news about miners and GPUs turn into a anti-miner vs pro-miner/indifferent towards miner flamewar.

 

And the thread has already been cleaned twice. Generally, the mods clean once with love, and the second time, with the cleansing fire of a veangeful god and make it so that it doesn't need to be cleaned again.

Have you consider it from a business perspective? No you haven't. Fuck everyone else...

[Zodiark1593]

8 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

That's not an argument as to why consumers need compute or why wouldn't those who need it wouldn't just get workstation cards at workstation prices.

 

If one wants a card for gaming and productivity one can already get said card from both vendors: The Nvidia Titan and the AMD Frontier Edition, and nearly every Radeon and GeForce made in the last 7+ years. This cards existing I would consider the first move to the divide, before a more overt limitation is placed on consumer compute but I think it will follow.

GPGPU has been a thing since the 8800 GTX, so I fail to see how the Titan and the Frontier Edition change that beyond FP64 and ECC(both of which, even in workstations sees very limited use).

[Drak3]

Just now, NumLock21 said:

Have you consider it from a business perspective? No you haven't. Fuck everyone else...

Yes. It's either my first or second response.

 

Unless someone can provide both RMA numbers before and after the mining trend booming, AND testing on whether or not mining kills cards the way idiots keep claiming that they do, I have no reason to think that Inno3D is actually doing this because miners have sky rocketed RMAs solely by mining. I do have reason to believe that Inno3D is pushing inferior product, and trying to use miners as scapegoats for investers, boards, and advertising.

 

And quite frankly, a GPU is a coprocessor. Any modern GPU is built to perform compute tasks. If a software is designed to work with the capability of a GPU, and is not designed to attempt to kill the GPU, then it is not misuse or abuse. Not the consumer's fault that the only manufacturer with cards to sell at the time of purchase are inferior.

 

1 minute ago, Zodiark1593 said:

I fail to see how the Titan and the Frontier Edition change that beyond FP64 and ECC(both of which, even in workstations sees very limited use).

I don't think Titan or Frontier have ECC. I think it is one of the justifications to getting the Quadro/FirePro counterparts for enterprise members with deeper prockets.

[NumLock21]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Yes. It's either my first or second response.

 

Unless someone can provide both RMA numbers before and after the mining trend booming, AND testing on whether or not mining kills cards the way idiots keep claiming that they do, I have no reason to think that Inno3D is actually doing this because miners have sky rocketed RMAs solely by mining. I do have reason to believe that Inno3D is pushing inferior product, and trying to use miners as scapegoats for investers, boards, and advertising.

 

And quite frankly, a GPU is a coprocessor. Any modern GPU is built to perform compute tasks. If a software is designed to work with the capability of a GPU, and is not designed to attempt to kill the GPU, then it is not misuse or abuse. Not the consumer's fault that the only manufacturer with cards to sell at the time of purchase are inferior.

 

I don't think Titan or Frontier have ECC. I think it is one of the justifications to getting the Quadro/FirePro counterparts for enterprise members with deeper prockets.

Not gpu makers, more like pc shop owners. 

[Drak3]

Just now, NumLock21 said:

Not gpu makers, more like pc shop owners. 

Yeah they're not feeling any pain from RMAs. They accept the dead card, give out a working, and then send the dead to the manufacturer in exchange for another working, or a refurb if no new stock is being made.

[Zodiark1593]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Yes. It's either my first or second response.

 

Unless someone can provide both RMA numbers before and after the mining trend booming, AND testing on whether or not mining kills cards the way idiots keep claiming that they do, I have no reason to think that Inno3D is actually doing this because miners have sky rocketed RMAs solely by mining. I do have reason to believe that Inno3D is pushing inferior product, and trying to use miners as scapegoats for investers, boards, and advertising.

 

And quite frankly, a GPU is a coprocessor. Any modern GPU is built to perform compute tasks. If a software is designed to work with the capability of a GPU, and is not designed to attempt to kill the GPU, then it is not misuse or abuse. Not the consumer's fault that the only manufacturer with cards to sell at the time of purchase are inferior.

 

I don't think Titan or Frontier have ECC. I think it is one of the justifications to getting the Quadro/FirePro counterparts for enterprise members with deeper prockets.

The OG Titan had 1/3 fp32 performance in fp64, though no ECC. I'm not sure of the Frontier though. I hadn't looked into that one myself. Most proper high end workstation cards, aside from FP64 and ECC tend to have vast quantities of VRAM (I've seen some with 24GB last year), which i think, while expensive is reasonable enough. Even hobbyists will be hard pressed to fill 8 GB, though a studio can make quick work of 24 GB.

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

The OG Titan had 1/3 fp32 performance in fp64, though no ECC. I'm not sure of the Frontier though. I hadn't looked into that one myself. Most proper high end workstation cards, aside from FP64 and ECC tend to have vast quantities of VRAM (I've seen some with 24GB last year), which i think, while expensive is reasonable enough. Even hobbyists will be hard pressed to fill 8 GB, though a studio can make quick work of 24 GB.

Yes, the Quadro M6000. The 24GB VRAM on it could either be used as 24GB, or a redundant 12GB.

[suicidalfranco]

1 hour ago, NumLock21 said:

your childhood was, to be stuffed inside a toyota, like a sardine stuffed inside a tin can?

yep, but hey, they were, cheap and most importantly: fast, faster than every public solution i've used till now, and you can find one at every minute and they'll stop at what ever place you are and want to hop on

[suicidalfranco]

27 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

its not that bad after you get used to the smell and the lack of space

please, i've smelled far worse stuff than sweaty people under the every day heat of the african sun

[NumLock21]

35 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Yeah they're not feeling any pain from RMAs. They accept the dead card, give out a working, and then send the dead to the manufacturer in exchange for another working, or a refurb if no new stock is being made.

Rma won't exist, if there are no cards to sell. And customer will start to nag if their card don't get back from rma after a certain time.

[marldorthegreat]

20 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

Miners don't have the absolute right to hog all gpus.

Now piss off

 

But its a free market, if miners get there first its just the way it is. 

[SpaceGhostC2C]

This looks simple to me: did Inno3D explicitly leave mining out of the warranty on their warranty statement, prior to issuing this "warning", that is, at the time of the miners' purchases? 

If not, I hope they are taken to court over this, and lose. 

[Jito463]

On 8/25/2017 at 9:46 AM, Ben Quigley said:

What you have to remember is fiat money, or real money is only worth something because people are crazy and think it is. Our money isn't backed by a gold reserve anymore. Sometimes it's backed by a small percentage but apart from that crypto currencies are exactly the same.

Yes and no.  While our currency isn't backed by a tangible asset like gold, it is backed by the US economy which has significant weight behind it.

On 8/25/2017 at 10:45 AM, Ben Quigley said:

 

What you have too think about is each side of the equation can't directly effect the other. In other words, a guy buying 100 cards at once only affects the demand side, the manufacturer/retailers are the ones that can effect the supply side. There have been quite a few good examples of this over time, look at de beers with the diamond trade for instance.  They purposefully and artificially increased the value of diamonds for so long many people still believe they have some high intrinsic value. People eventually accept higher prices when they get used to it, if the mining craze goes on long enough, even after demand has fallen the likes of AMD and Nvidia could easily increase their profit margin by charging higher prices. 

 

I'm not saying they will do this, or they have plans to, just that they could. 

Except that the cost of mining is much easier to hide, whereas the cost of parts for video cards are much easier to reference (apart from the silicon itself, which is - for all intents and purposes - a trade secret).

6 hours ago, Ithanul said:

I wonder what EVGA's stance is on this issue?  I buy their cards for their awesome warrant.  Heck, I told them my OG Titan died from folding.  They replace the card with no issue and that was a 2nd hand card at that.

That's not terribly surprising, given that the Titan cards are geared more towards professional (or at least "prosumer") use, so it's not like running heavy compute loads would be antithetical to its intended purpose.  While it's often advertised for gaming, and many people buy them for gaming, Nvidia themselves have stated that they're not actually gaming cards.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

22 hours ago, leadeater said:

 

You don't even need cards with the compute power of RX580's, very low power cards that are terrible for gaming tailored to mining and is nothing but good at that with smaller dies that can be sold in much larger volume at lower costs seems to be a market segment that can support itself.

They could use smaller, low power GPUs in many-die cards. It could have the same performance per watt for mining, cost less due to the glued together(TM) factor, and be useless for gaming because "6-way CrossFireX / SLI" isn't exactly a thing. You wouldn't even need to remove the video out.

[Zodiark1593]

28 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

They could use smaller, low power GPUs in many-die cards. It could have the same performance per watt for mining, cost less due to the glued together(TM) factor, and be useless for gaming because "6-way CrossFireX / SLI" isn't exactly a thing. You wouldn't even need to remove the video out.

Memory may be a thorny issue here as some mining algorithms (Ethereum namely) are particularly dependent on the memory controller capability, as well as how to provide bandwidth for each die. Depending on the quantity of gpu dies used, producing a cheap card that can accommodate many channels of memory devices will be a challenge.

 

If so inclined, it should be possible to make compute cards that omit nearly everything on the die besides shader cores, memory interfaces, and a bare minimum of components to get display. With stripped down gaming oriented hardware (polygon engines, ROPs, TMUs, etc), gaming performance will probably be crappy, but one could fit a maximum of shader cores within a given die space, maximizing compute performance.

 

This, I think, would be far more favorable to stripping compute capability from gaming cards. Of course, the con is that designing such a chip costs money as well as the fab capacity required to produce chips for the small market segment.

[Shreyas1]

Or, more likely, nvidia and amd will come out with "mining" hardware at much higher prices and THEN implememt these bios changes.

[Zodiark1593]

14 minutes ago, Shreyas1 said:

Or, more likely, nvidia and amd will come out with "mining" hardware at much higher prices and THEN implememt these bios changes.

Thankfully, Nvidia is much more interesting in keeping CUDA going.

[Maticks]

As someone who has done mining on his cards since Bitcoin days, provided you don't overclock the crap out of them when you are mining they do last.

I got 5 years out of 3 graphics cards, even my old GTX580's are doing mining. My GTX1080's are mining when i am not gaming but i do 2000Mhz when mining and 2150Mhz when gaming. just switch afterburner profiles. It's safe to mine on cards just don't overclock them to breaking point and expect running them 24x7 at 100% they are going to die.

My old 7970's i had for mining and gaming i overclocked them to breaking point and mined at that, they did die after 3 years.

 

As for anyone who says its a waste of money, yeah it is if you buy to just mine. i bought mine to game and they did mining when i wasn't gaming.

What did i end up mining around 25 Bitcoins, i made 60k AUD when i sold them. it probably costed me 2k in power over those years.

 

Would i go out and buy a heap of cards to mine, no.. but why sell your old cards when you upgrade just put them in a system.

My unraid NAS is where my old cards go, my 7 year old cards bit the dust about 6 months ago. they run at stock voltage and do mining still. when they won't do that anymore they will go in the bin. But they made me money and i couldn't use them for gaming anymore.

 

In summer the rig goes into the garage in winter its in the study and with the door open the heat keeps the house at 21C.

 

[GOTSpectrum]

8 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Memory may be a thorny issue here as some mining algorithms (Ethereum namely) are particularly dependent on the memory controller capability, as well as how to provide bandwidth for each die. Depending on the quantity of gpu dies used, producing a cheap card that can accommodate many channels of memory devices will be a challenge.

 

If so inclined, it should be possible to make compute cards that omit nearly everything on the die besides shader cores, memory interfaces, and a bare minimum of components to get display. With stripped down gaming oriented hardware (polygon engines, ROPs, TMUs, etc), gaming performance will probably be crappy, but one could fit a maximum of shader cores within a given die space, maximizing compute performance.

 

This, I think, would be far more favorable to stripping compute capability from gaming cards. Of course, the con is that designing such a chip costs money as well as the fab capacity required to produce chips for the small market segment.

Hmm 16 mini processing units each with 1x bandwidth... Sounds profitable I wonder how much ram you'd need...